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|Text from this version of Fort Wood (New York and New Jersey) was copied or moved into Liberty Island with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Fort Wood (New York and New Jersey).|
- 1 Waters of NJ
- 2 Tweaks and a new section
- 3 More on NY/NJ question; charters; legalisms
- 4 "Within New Jersey's Borders"
- 5 "Associated with New York CIty"
- 6 Residents?
- 7 Map
- 8 Correct Location?
- 9 Liberty Island and Jersey City
- 10 59,000!
- 11 Is Liberty Island part of New York City?
- 12 Name
- 13 Infobox-Location
- 14 Multiple maps with coordinates
- 15 Requests for Comments
- 16 Wikipedia:Requests for feedback
- 17 Ellis Island and Liberty Island
- 18 Coordinate error
- 19 New map
Waters of NJ
Liberty Island is considered to be in the waters of New Jersey.
DigiBullet 20:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Tweaks and a new section
I decided that extended details on the territorial relationships between Liberty Island and NY and NJ belongs here (rather than in Statue of Liberty), and that consequently details on the question of whether the island is "in" NJ also belongs here.
I tweaked the opening paragraphs to group facts about the names by which the island is known. In the process, I changed the language
- Although the island is usually associated with New York, it is actually closer to the New Jersey side of New York Harbor, separted from the infill of Liberty State Park in Jersey City, by less than one-half mile (1 km), well within the New Jersey side of the border.
- Liberty Island is 2000 feet (600 meters) from Liberty State Park in Jersey City, New Jersey. By comparison it is 1-5/8 statute miles (2.6 kilometers) from Battery Park in Manhattan. Although it is not a part of New Jersey, it is situated on the New Jersey side of the boundary line between New Jersey and New York.
I wanted an explicit statement that it is "not a part of New Jersey," so that its location relative to the boundary line could not be taken to imply that it is legally part of New Jersey.
I then added a section on "relationship to New York and New Jersey" which contains a hedged, weaselly suggestion that perhaps it is "geographically" part of New Jersey.
I tried to clearly acknowledge the undisputed facts which are important to JerseyDevil, while still making clear that legally the (dry part of) the island is part of New York. Specifically, I say that
- Perhaps a case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.
The reason why I saw "perhaps" is that, simply, I really have no idea what it means to say that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. If the phrase "geographically within" actually has a well-understood meaning, and if someone who isn't a New Jersey booster and understands geography better than I do can says that it's true that Liberty Island is "geographically within" New Jersey, I'd be willing to accept it, but for now I feel happier weaseling. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
More on NY/NJ question; charters; legalisms
Thank you for taking my complaints into consideration, but I don't like the word "perhaps". It's a FACT that the Statue of Liberty is in New Jersey's territorial waters. It's also a FACT that NJ prvides the electricity, water, sewage and all the other infastructure to BOTH Ellis Island and Liberty Island. That is why the Statue of Liberty remains lit, even while NY goes black from one of their many blackouts.
You bring up the 1664 charter - but you misread it. It says ALL lands west of manhattan island and Long island are given as part of NJ.
"James Duke of York, doth hereby acknowledge, and thereof doth acquit and discharge the said John Lord Berkley and Sir George Carteret forever by these presents hath granted, bargained, sold, released and confirmed, and by these presents doth grant, bargain, sell, release and confirm unto the said John Lord Berkley and Sir George Carteret, their heirs and assigns for ever, all that tract of land adjacent to New England, and lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island and bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's river, and hath upon the west Delaware bay or river, and extendeth southward to the main ocean as far as Cape May at the mouth of the Delaware bay; and to the northward as far as the northermost branch of the said bay or river of Delaware, which is forty-one degrees and forty minutes of latitude, and crosseth over thence in a strait line to Hudson's river in forty-one degrees of latitude; which said tract of land is hereafter to be called by the name or names of New Caeserea or New Jersey: and also all rivers, mines, mineralls; woods, fishings, hawking, hunting, and fowling, and all other royalties, profits, commodities, and hereditaments whatever, to the said lands and premises belonging or in any wise appertaining;"
Even in the Supreme Court case of 1996 it declares tha these lands have been in contention between NJ and NY since colonial times. It also states that in the original charter to NJ these lands were given to New Jersey.
"...The States of New Jersey and New York have disputed their sovereign boundary in the vicinity of Ellis Island since colonial times. Their competing claims originally rested on the terms of a land grant from the Duke of York, proprietor of the Colony of New York, to Lord Berkeley and Sir George Carteret, which created the Colony of New Jersey. The grant included lands west of Long Island and Manhattan Island, "bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's River."...'
Now where does the charter say anything about Low Water mark or the islands belonging to NY. The charter however DOES clearly state that the lands west of Manhattan and Long Island are granted to NJ. Both Ellis Island and Liberty Island are west of Manhattan and Long Island. The problem rests in the ambiguity of this text, which was often the case in the old charters. What is meant by west of Manhattan? If the grant was for the low water mark as you contend, then why would they say ALL lands west of Long Island. Going by the grant, Governors Island and Staten Island should also be New Jersey's, because they are BOTH west of Long Island. The grant basically demonstrates that the NJ/NY border should be just west of Manhattan Island and curve east between Governors Island and Long Island and continue south BETWEEN Long Island and Staten Island.
It was NOT in 1664 that NY laid claim to Liberty Island, but almost 200 years later. The problem is that NJ didn't fight it at the time, but just accepted it. And believe me - tourists would much rather have it in NJ than NY since they would only have to pay 6% sales tax (ZERO Percent on clothes) if it was in NJ - instead of the 8.5% sales tax that they currently have to pay.
--JerseyDevil 17:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
About that "perhaps." I assume you mean the sentence:
- Perhaps a case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.
If you want to remove the word "perhaps" so that it reads
- A case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.
I won't revert, as long as the sentence leaves some room for doubt.
Look. I don't believe there's any real, final, definitive answer to the question, because there's nothing real at issue here. Unless New York and New Jersey decide to take it to court nobody is going to know the answer.
Now, you say "It was NOT in 1664 that NY laid claim to Liberty Island, but almost 200 years later. The problem is that NJ didn't fight it at the time, but just accepted it." Well, if New Jersey "didn't fight it... but just accepted it," well, you know, under all sorts of law after a certain number of decades it would just be New York's under adverse possession or whatever.
I mean, we're getting into science-fiction parallel universe stuff here. If New Jersey had known that the Statue of Liberty would be built there a century later, maybe they would have fought and won. But on the other hand, raising the money for the statue was very difficult and for years it was never clear whether the statue would actually be erected. If the island was accepted as belonging to New Jersey, maybe Joseph Pulitzer would have been less enthusiastic about raising money and would have shrugged and said "Let Jersey City do it." Or perhaps he would have campaigned to put the statue somewhere else.
I personally am not enough of an historian or legal scholar to make sense out of century-old documents. I don't know what your credentials might be. Encyclopedias in general, and Wikipedia in particular, is a _secondary source._ Find some half-decent book that says the interpretation of the charter means thus-and-such, or that discusses these specific territorial details in depth. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
P. S. That sales tax remark is just silly. Yeah, and tourists would like it even better if it were in New Hampshire. What is there to buy on Liberty Island, anyway? I've never thought of it as a shopping mecca, exactly. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
First concerning the "perhaps" - it's not a perhaps issue as to whether Liberty Island is geographically within NJ - it is a fact it is. The border between NY and NJ is EAST of the islands. So both Ellis Island and LIBERTY Island are within NJ.
I am perfectly aware of the history of building the Statue of Liberty - I have been to both Ellis Island and Liberty Island hundreds of times, I was just there in June. Aas regards the comment on whether NY would support the building of the Statue of Liberty is it was in NY or NJ - I would say they would. They wouold still attempt to claim it though. NY raised the money to build Sandy Hook lighthouse in the 1700's. They later tried to claim Sandy Hook as their land - but lost that battle. They also repeatedly promote the Jets and Giants - even though they get nothing from them, they're both NJ teams who play in NJ. The only thing they have is "NY" on their uniforms, but still NY promotes them as "their team" (except of course to try getting the west side stadium built - then they were referred to as NJ teams they were trying to get back :p)
I like your comment about Wikipedia being a secondary source, my argument is that the information is erroneous. But then again - much of the informatiohn concerning NJ is erroneous on Wikipedia (such as the state vegetable being the tomato). I know people who say "well wikipedia says...". The information concerning the charter is INCORRECT and should be removed. Do you deny that the charter says "all that tract of land adjacent to New England, and lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island"? You say to quote a book that says that all the lands west of Manhattan and Long Island belonged to NJ - what makes a book more reliable than the ORIGINAL charter? Basically what it boils down to is that you don't want to face what the charter says.
Now onto the Sales Tax issue. It was not "just plain silly". Your comment about New Hamshire is silly because the statue if no where near New Hamsphire. As for buying things there - maybe you haven't been to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island - but it might amaze you that BOTH have HUGE souvenir shops - where people pay the 8.5% NY sales tax. So yes - tourists would probably be very happy to have the Statue of Liberty in NJ so they would only pay 6% and zero percent on clothes.--JerseyDevil 19:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- It is a misreading of the 1664 charter to say that New Jersey has "ALL lands west of manhattan island and Long island." The charter very specifically spells out the boundries of New Jersey. It says: all that tract of land (1) adjacent to New England, and (2) lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island, and (3) bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's river, and (4) hath upon the west Delaware bay or river, and (5) extendeth southward to the main ocean as far as Cape May at the mouth of the Delaware bay, and (6) to the northward as far as the northermost branch of the said bay or river of Delaware, which is forty-one degrees and forty minutes of latitude, and (7) crosseth over thence in a strait line to Hudson's river in forty-one degrees of latitude. Numbers (1) and (2) only generally define the location of the tract (i.e. adjacent to New England and west of Manhattan), whereas numbers (3) through (7) define the actual boundries. Key to this discussion is number (3) which defines the eastern boundry as "the main sea, and part by Hudson's river". Where the land meets the sea (or river) was the boundry in 1664. Gnosticdogma 22:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"Within New Jersey's Borders"
Note the paragraph here about the NY-NJ Compact of 1834:  " The first three articles of the Compact are the focus of this bi-state feud. Article First establishes the boundary line between the two states (Figure 2) which in this stretch is more or less the middle of the Hudson River. Article Second states that New York "shall retain its present jurisdiction of and over Bedlow's and Ellis's islands --- now under the jurisdiction ofthat state." (Note these islands lie to the west of the New York/New Jersey boundary."
It's explicit: Liberty Island is part of New York State. It's surrounded by Jersey (harbor-floor) territory, but that doesn't make it "Within NJ" any more than the country of Lesotho is "Within South Africa". It's called a "exclave"/"enclave" when one government owns land that is surrounded by the land of a second government. Claiming that Liberty Island is "Within NJ" is misleading as it implies that Liberty Island is part of NJ, or under the jurisdiction of NJ. It is neither.
"Associated with New York CIty"
I've now added a borderline-off-topic paragraph which tries to account for the feelings of New Jersey residents. In support of my statement that the Statue of Liberty is often associated with New York City, I offer: a photo service's stock photo of "the Statue of Liberty in New York City, New York, USA"  and list of the "modern Wonders of the World"  includes "The Statue of Liberty in New York City, USA;" such examples could be multiplied.
When I was a kid (we're talking Carter Administration era) I remember learning about a handful of families that lived on Liberty Island. (I think it was on TV once and maybe also in a magazine like Junior Scholastic.) I don't remember why people were living on the island, but in hindsight I assume the parents worked for the National Park Service. Anyone know more about this, or whether anyonestill lives there? In any case it might warrant mentioning in the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- This just seems really unlikely. Maybe you're thinking of Governors Island?--Pharos 08:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Ive seen a history channel show that said a park ranger lived on the island--220.127.116.11 15:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a cluster of 5 buildings on the north-west point of the island that definately have the appearance of residences. -Z
Can we have a map showing where exactly this is located? Badagnani 16:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is a map showing the Statue that is Physically in New Jersey, minus all the BS legal mumbo jumbo nonsense.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/statueofliberty/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
From Ellis Island article: "The Statue of Liberty ... is actually on nearby Liberty Island, which is about 1/2 mile to the South."
From Liberty Island article: "It is separated from nearby Ellis Island by approximately 1 mi (1.6 km)."
So what is the actual location of these 2 islands, and the distance separating them? Maybe somebody fluent with GPS or Google Maps or TerraServer could find an accurate distance? T-bonham 07:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/statueofliberty/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 07:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Liberty Island and Jersey City
On the location of Liberty Island, it might be of interest to note that Jersey City has assigned a block number to Liberty Island, 2156, as well as Ellis Island, 2155 - with the latter having the NYS area clearly marked. reference: map 12.12, page 347 of "Realty Atlas - Hudson County New Jersey" 2004, First American Real Estate Solutions.
- That's interesting. IMHO you should add it to the article, as a relevant fact. Please don't phrase it in a way that suggests that it proves anything or settles the issue; I think the fact can stand by itself, allowing readers to deduce what they will. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I also do not think it is accurate to say that the boundary has "never been officially disputed." The Riparian Commission(s) of the 19th century were quite contentious on this issue.
- Got any quotations speaking to this? Is it clear that they were arguing about the actual land of Liberty Island and not just riparian rights? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, that's 0.59 square kilometers (1 kilometer = 1000 meters, 1 square kilometer = 1,000,000 square meters (1000 meters * 1000 meters = 1 kilometer * 1 kilometer = 1 square kilometer))126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Is Liberty Island part of New York City?
BEDLOE'S ISLAND, one of a group of islands in New York Harbor near the mouth of the Hudson River, has had a long and interesting history. Over it have flown the flags of Holland, England, and the United States; and for a brief time it was lent to the French Government. It has also belonged to the corporation of New York City, to the State, and to several private owners.
The Mohegan Indians called it "Minnissais, meaning Lesser Island. At various times it has been known as "Great Oyster," "Love Island," "Bedloo's Island," "Kennedy's Island," "Corporation Island," "Bedlow's Island"—an anglicized form of the original owner's name—and now "Bedloe's," a spelling for which there is no historical basis.
Under Dutch sovereignty the island became the property of Isaack Bedloo, merchant and "select burgher" of New Amsterdam, who was born in Calais, France. His name was listed with 94 others in the "Remonstrance of the People of New Netherlands to the Director-General and Council"—a protest of public-spirited citizens to Holland against certain intolerable conditions. So it was not surprising that under English rule the island was formally granted to him by Governor Nicolls of New York.
Bedloo is believed to have died in 1673. His estate retained the island until 1732, when his daughter Mary sold it to Adolphe Philipse and Henry Lane for 5 shillings. During their ownership the island was temporarily commandeered as the first quarantine station by the city, which feared "that small-pox and other malignant fevers may be brought in from South Carolina, Barbadoes, Antigua, and other places, where they have great mortality."
In 1746, Archibald Kennedy bought the island for the sum of £100, for use as a summer home. During his ownership the State ordered the erection of a beacon on Bedloe's Island, for the purpose of warning New Jersey, Connecticut, and New York of the approach of an enemy.
In 1756, the Governor of New York instructed Kennedy, as presiding councillor of New York, to exercise all possible. precautions to prevent the introduction of smallpox, which was then raging in Philadelphia. Kennedy permitted the use of his island again as a temporary quarantine station. In 1759, the Corporation of the City of New York bought the island for £1,000 to erect a pest-house. During the next few years it was leased to several different persons for varied periods of time.
When the English occupied New York they seized Bedloe's Island and used it as a refuge for Tory sympathizers. Objecting to this use, rebels managed to set fire to all the buildings on the island and to do other damage.
The French came into the picture in 1793, using Bedloe's Island as an isolation station for 3 years. In 1796, the island was conveyed to the ownership of New York State for use as a hospital site or any other desired purpose.
By this time steps had been taken by the newly organized Federal Government, in conjunction with the State, to erect fortifications to protect New York Harbor. Three sites—Governor's Island, Ellis Island, and Bedloe's Island—were chosen for defense fortifications, and on February 15, 1800, by act of the New York Legislature, the three islands were ceded to the United States Government.
Construction of a land battery, in the shape of an 11-point star, was begun on Bedloe's Island in 1806 and finished 5 years later. For a while referred to merely as the "works on Bedloe's Island," it later was named "Fort Wood" in memory of a distinguished hero of the War of 1812 who was killed in 1814 during an attack on Fort Erie.
Following the War of 1812, Fort Wood served at various times as a Corps of Artillery garrison, ordnance depot, and recruiting station, and intermittently as a quarantine station.Then came Bartholdi and his great idea, and in 1877 Bedloe's Island was chosen as the site for the Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World. Although the island was then abandoned as a military post, it remained under the control of the War Department, with the exception of an acre or so at its north end which was set aside for the Lighthouse Board which operated the light in the torch. In 1901, the lighthouse reservation also was placed under War Department control.
Liberty Island is located Upper New York Bay and the most appropriate choice for the info box. It is clear, direct, neutral description that neither incorrect or misleading. The rationale for doing so is based the three following references:
- Statue of Liberty National Monument NPS which uses both New York and New Jersey as location
- Frequently Asked Questions NPS which expressly avoids the use of the word location
- NEW JERSEY v. NEW YORK 523 U.S. 767 The Supreme Court decision clarfies the fact that both Ellis Island and Liberty Island are islands located in New Jersey under the partially under the jurisdiction of New York
- Ok then, I put the following on your talk page, but I'll post it here too:
- I do not understand why you keep wanting to insert inaccurate information about the location of Liberty Island in the articles on the island and the Statue of Liberty. The island has never been a part of New Jersey, at any time in it's history.
- In 1664 the boundary of the Colony of New York was set at the shore of the Hudson River (not in the middle of the river as is normal) this designation caused all of the islands in the river and bay to belong to the colony of New York, not New Jersey.
- Later when the border between the two colonies was changed to be in the middle of the river it did not effect the jurisdiction of the islands that now found themselves on the other side of the line (namely Ellis and Liberty). While all of the submerged land underwater now belonged to New Jersey all of the dry land above water remained the territory of New York.
- Ellis Island, at some point in it's history, was enlarged by drugging up dirt from the bottom of the river and adding it to the island to make it larger so it would be easier to build on. This caused the jurisdiction of the island to fall to BOTH New York and New Jersey but ONLY because it used dirt that belong to New Jersey to enlarge it.
- Liberty Island, on the other hand, has never been enlarged and so has remained firmly in the jurisdiction of the City and State of New York.
- Now because the Statue of Liberty National Monument contains both Ellis and Liberty Islands it spans two states, but Liberty Island itself is still, and has been for the past 346 years, part of New York.
- I hope this clears up any confusion.
- As per your sources...
- The first I've covered as Ellis Island is part of New Jersey but Liberty Island isn't the site would have to list both states because the National Monument covers both islands.
- The second does cover the location stating, "Is the Statue in New York or New Jersey? The Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island, federal property administered by the National Park Service, located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. A pact between New York and New Jersey, ratified by Congress in 1834, declared this issue."
- The third is the case I referred to talking about how the jurisdiction of Ellis Island is shared by NY and NJ. If you actually read your own source Liberty Island isn't covered by that case, it only talks about the filled land on Ellis Island and only Ellis Island. You can find an easier to read copy of the case file here. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The infobox used by Wikipedia for landmarks and such requires a location, as in: Where is it? You seem to be avoiding that issue with red herrings: about claims, ownership, administration, territorial jurisdiction. The Supreme Court decision acknowledges that Ellis Island and Liberty Island are on the New Jersey side the border between the two the two states. It also acknowleges New York's soverignity over dry land of Liberty Island and portions Ellis Island. Neither are contiguous to New York County, of which they are part. They are located within the territorial waters of New Jersey, which incidentally is what the case is all about: submerged land. There is no justification to suggest that Liberty Island does not qualify as belonging in the Category:Geography of Hudson County, since it is encompassed within it. To continue to add a red linked non-article Mouth of the Hudson River (which leads toUpper New York Bay and site of Libert Island) to the infobox is sabotage of WikipediaDjflem (talk) 04:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- "Sabotage" of Wikipedia. You have got to be kidding me.
- Ok, here's the thing, I was trying to explain, in detail, my point. Liberty Island, while on the wrong side of the state line on a technicality, is not and never has been part of New Jersey. Nor has it ever been a part of Hudson County NJ. It is part of New York City/County/State since 1664. New Jersey agreed to this fact in 1834.
- The submerged land isn't part of the Island this article is about. And being contiguous isn't a requirement to part of New York County, see Marble Hill, Manhattan for another example of part of New York County being on the other side of a body of water (in this case the Harlem River).
- In this case, however, I'll agree to listing Upper New York Bay due to the fact that Mouth of the Hudson River doesn't actually exist as an article. But I'm still removing the Hudson County category because, as I've said over and over, it isn't actually part of Hudson County. It's part of New York County. You can add that category to Ellis Island (if it isn't already) all you want, but Liberty Island isn't part of it. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, because you keep adding the Hudson County category, allow me to present two more bits of evidence for my side.
- First off, let's visit Google Maps. On their maps they list and show all state lines, including (of course) the New York/New Jersey line. But if you zoom in on Liberty Island you see something surprising...another state line! This clearly shows that Liberty Island is a little enclave of New York County located within the boundaries of Hudson County. Literally a "black hole in the geography of Hudson County" as you said.
- Second on the Hudson County article there is a map showing the various municipalities of the county. There are three colors in the key: incorporated place (pink), township (green), and water (blue). But if you look at the map itself you see a fourth color...white! The white covers both the New York section of Ellis Island (the original land) and Liberty Island, and only these two locations. Why you ask? Because those two locations are not part of Hudson County. Note how the New Jersey section of Ellis Island is pink with the rest of Jersey City while the white bit isn't.
- I'm glad that you acknowledge the fact that the maps show both Liberty Island and Ellis Island are indeed located within Hudson County, and are exclaves of New York County, which I added, by the way. Subsequently you would have to agree that since the two white portions or black holes fall within the geography of Hudson County, the Category:Geography of Hudson County (which concerns all aspects of the geography of Hudson County-especially anamolies like exclaves!) the article Liberty Island should unquestionablly be included in it.
- As for the article (what its about is determined by the contributors) there is a discussion about dry and submerged portions in it. There is a also a long section about the relationship between the states, as there is in the Statue of Liberty article. (They are actually misplaced and will be changed: The section Statue of Liberty#Dominion of Liberty Island should be here and discusion of each state's use of the national monumment should be in the other article) Therefore the map is most apppropriate to the section (since a good portion of the article discusses that relationship) and should be supported with a good visual addition to the understanding of the issue, wouldn't you agreed?
- If you don't agree then I suggest you seek a third party opinion and put the article up for discussion. Until such time, do not revert or remove my edits regarding the above issuesDjflem (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have always said that Liberty Island is on the New Jersey side of the line, but it isn't part of New Jersey nor Hudson County. It's a tiny piece of New York County/State surrounded by Hudson County.
- The geography of Hudson County is all around the island but the island itself isn't part of Hudson County, and therefore isn't part of it's geography. That's what I've been trying to tell you over and over and over.
- Because the Island isn't part of Hudson County it doesn't belong in this category. At all.
- Also, I wasn't removing the map, I was changing it to the more zoomed in one. With a full-on state map you can't even tell anything about it. Besides as the island is a New York State island the map should be New York State not New Jersey.
- Next, under what authority do you demand that I not remove the category that doesn't belong with this article? I will continue to revert or remove those edits as they are as incorrect now as they were when you first inserted them. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Outside opinion It's my understanding that Liberty Island is an exclave of New York County surrounded by Hudson County. As such, I don't see how it would be correct to include it in a Hudson County category, because it's not part of Hudson County (or NJ) strictly speaking. You wouldn't say Washington DC is part of Virginia or Maryland, nor would you say that Mount Oliver, Pennsylvania is a part of the city of Pittsburgh (though it is correctly listed as part of the metro area of Pittsburgh). OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Another assessment First, I must warn the editors involved that they're brushing up against 3RR and they're certainly involved in editwarring in pagespace. I assert that the National Park Service website answers this question specifically, and does use the word "location" (although that seems a minor quibble):
Is the Statue in New York or New Jersey? The Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island, federal property administered by the National Park Service, located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. A pact between New York and New Jersey, ratified by Congress in 1834, declared this issue.—From the National Park Service FAQ, http://www.nps.gov/stli/faqs.htm
Multiple maps with coordinates
I'm not sure exactly what you two have done, but at the top of my browser, I see two overlapping sets of coordinates. Could you decide on one map? Personally I like the File:USA New York City location map.svg specifically because it appears to show Liberty and Ellis Islands as outside the Manhattan administration area, and gives a good idea of location relative to the major features, unlike either state map. Neither state map turns me on so much for this pagespace, though I can see why the NY state map is appropriate for the Statue of Liberty pagespace (and please don't take your disagreement over there). Please consider finding a solution which solves this problem. BusterD (talk) 13:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- It's the multiple infoboxes with coordinates. We should look at how other pages have solved this issue... BusterD (talk) 14:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm looking at that now, I'm not sure how to fix this problem...perhaps there's a way to merge the two info-boxes together so both maps are running off the same sets of coordinates? Or perhaps we can remove the map from the 2nd info-box and only leave the NRHP info? 18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, using the info-box from the Statue of Liberty article as a base I've got one info-box with both boxes worth of info. I have no idea, however, how to add in another map elsewhere on the page without it causing the coordinates to double again so for now I've left it with the original info-box's map of NYC. If either of you know how to do it feel free. :) 22.214.171.124 (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Requests for Comments
You already know what my comments are, but I'll repeat them here.
1. The 'Geography of Hudson County' category needs to be removed...again...for the same reasons as I've stated before and the reasons given by the 3rd and 4th opinions on that subject given by OhNoitsJamie and BusterD. It's not actually part of Hudson County.
2. I, again, suggest rewording that one sentence in the Geography and Access section. I think it should read, "Liberty Island is located completely within the boundaries of New Jersey, its built portions and docks falling under the jurisdiction of the City of New York, of which they wholly part." The reason being that while the island is located on the other side of the state line it's not part of Jersey City and the current phrasing seems misleading.
3. If you're going to list the departure location for Liberty/Ellis Islands from New Jersey in the article (Communipaw Terminal) you should also list the Manhattan departure point as well (Castle Clinton). 126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
- Here we go again...
- It doesn't belong in the Hudson County category, as I've said all along. It's part of New York County, and is surrounded by Hudson County without being a part of it.
- Also saying it's within the municipal boundaries of Jersey City implies that it's part of Jersey City. But simply saying it's within the boundaries of New Jersey gives the same correct information without being misleading at all. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
The request for comment was actually directed to other parties since you standpoint is clear. May I suggest that you allow others to comment on what is in recently wrttten version presented one hour ago without jumping all over it? It would be better to let others determine if they are being misled, as you suggest. I would imagine a reader of Wikipedia with moderate satisfactory English skills would understand that it is wholly part of New York, as written. To suppress information because you don't like it, especially in an article that involves the Statue of Liberty, seems rather ironic, given its symbolsm. Would you agree to let the version I've presented stay on the page for more than a few minutes see what others who may be interested have to say? The two comments above to which you refer are 1)based on a comparison of apples and oranges without making a point and 2) didn't comment on the inclusion in the category.
In the meantime, please consider the following:
- Where in this statement of imply that it's part of Jersey City, when it clearly says it wholly part of New York City?? It is the straightforward description of the situation:
Liberty Island is located completely within the boundaries of Jersey City, New Jersey, its built portions and docks falling under the jurisdiction of the City of New York, of which they wholly part. The historical developments which led to this construction created the rare situation of exclave of one state, New York, being situated in another, New Jersey.
The category geography in Wikipedia covers different aspects of both physical and political geography. Liberty Island is a landform within Hudson County, a clear and undeniable part of its physical geography. Addtionally, it forms part of the political boundaries of the county. Can you please respond to this facts, which you have more than once acknowledged, other than by repeating it is not part of Hudson County, why in should not be included in the Category:Geography of Hudson County. You will note that the Category of Jersey City includes only it neighborhoods, due to the structure of the city/county and how the two overlap. (You do not need to repeat the story about part of again.)
Addtionally, I would suggest that you look at comparable situations whereby jursidiction and location (two competely separate concepts) are handled within Wikipedia. Do you happen to know of other places in in the United States with such a layered historical jurisdictional background that makes the island so unique? Details about it are very rich and should be included the article, don't you agree?
- Enclave and exclave
- Guantánamo Bay included in Category:Geography of Cuba
- Vatican City included in Category:Geography of Rome
- Dutch/Belgian municpalities with complex borders
- Lesotho,landlocked nation
- So, what you are saying is that on your talk page you told me to wait to comment until you published it in the article itself but now I am informed, by you, that this is only for others to comment.
- Well I'm going to comment again anyway.
- First of all, on the Jersey City issue my point is that people tend to skim articles a bit and by saying that Liberty Island is located within the "municipal boundaries of Jersey City, New Jersey" first you can give the false impression that the island is actually part of Jersey City. To instead change it to say the exact same thing by only saying it's within the boundaries of New Jersey removes this problem without any loss of practical information. It is in no way suppressing information or censoring it as you seem to be implying.
- On the second, and much longer fought, front about the Hudson County category I still stand by everything I have said on this subject up to this point. The category in question describes the geography of a solely political unit of which Liberty Island is not a part. Therefore Liberty Island is not part of the geography of Hudson County, it is part of the geography of New York County.
- Now, about your list of 'comparable situations' I have a few comments:
- 1. While the Geography of Hudson County addresses a political location only the Geography of Cuba, on the other hand, covers both a political location (the country of Cuba) and a purely physical location (the island of Cuba). So while Guantánamo Bay would not be part of the geography of the political Cuba it would be part of the physical island of Cuba which is independent of the political definition.
- 2. As an outsider to the political reality that is the relationship between the Vatican City and Rome I can't really offer an informed opinion. However from just glancing over the article I would support it's removal from the Geography of Rome category. I would, however, leave that for the editors of those specific articles to decide.
- 3. Baarle-Hertog and Baarle-Nassau are actually in my favor. If you take a look at their categories they keep their sections separate. Hertog is only listed as being part of the geography of Antwerp and Nassau is only listed as being part of North Brabant.
- 4. Lesotho also works in my favor. Despite being completely surrounded on all sides by South Africa it isn’t shoved into any 'South Africa' categories, only categories applying to the country of Lesotho itself.
- 5. Lastly Berlin is a historical example that really has nothing to say that helps us in our disagreement. By the time Wikipedia was formed Germany had been reunited and West Berlin was no longer an enclave of West Germany within the country of East Germany.
- So, to make a long story short (too late!), I think Jersey City should be removed from that one sentence and that the article as a whole has no place in the Geography of Hudson County category. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
The article has been listed, though this process doesn't always net results, or can take some time. Being sustantially rewritten it would be good to bring it through the mill for grammar, punc, readability, etc. References could use better formatting, access dates updated, perhaps a google map added. Let's see if there's a responseDjflem (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Ellis Island and Liberty Island
- Not done. The coordinates currently in the article are fine; in Bing and Google maps, for instance, the marker appears roughly in the center of the island, and further precision for a feature of this size is not necessary. (See Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Precision. Giving seconds of a degree to two decimal places, as you suggest, would be specifying a location down to about 25 centimeters—inappropriate for an island that's a few hundred meters in length and width.) Deor (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Not sure how the new map is an improvement for the general reader who might know where the Atlantic Ocean is on the old map, but has little to refer to in the new map and does not care about the NY-NJ conflict - yet knows it is in NY and sees no map that looks much like NY.--JimWae (talk) 00:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hudson County New Jersey Street Map. Hagstrom Map Company, Inc. 2008. ISBN 0-8809-7763-9.
- NEW JERSEY v. NEW YORK 523 U.S. 767 page 779
- "Statue of Liberty National Monument - Frequently Asked Questions". NPS.gov. National Park Service. Retrieved February 1, 2010.