Talk:Linji

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• busy moving pages right now Hippocrates 14:29, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think we should make two pages. When I select rinzai as with soto I expect an article about the sect, not about the person. The other article could be rinzai gigen here's some more info about rinzai: http://www.buddhapia.com/hmu/bcm/2/zen_soto_rinzai.html Hippocrates

Properly speaking, this article should be called Lin-chi or Linji; however, the sect should probably be at a page titled "Rinzai Buddhism" or Rinzai (Sect), to provide the most clarity. The Rinzai page can be a disambiguation page. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

Which is more accurate, sect or school? To me, sect carries more negative connotations, so I'm surprised to find that Google favors that usage. Is there enough information available to merit multiple articles? --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 11:26, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that "sect" implies a specific organization, which Rinzai is specifically not -- in Japan it has, I think, about five separate organizations. I do think there is enough information available for two separate pages. Linji is fairly notable by himself and there is plenty of info available on Japanese Rinzai.- Nat Krause 15:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I would take "school" to imply a specific organization and "sect" to denote a religious community defined by specific views and practices...however, I don't think either is inappropriate in identifying a branch of Buddhism. Branch works too, speaking of which. One could make an argument for "style" or "form", but I think these are too unstructured. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've got a few things to say about this :) Hippocrates

• see sect: "A sect is a small religious group that has branched off of a larger established religion. Sects have many beliefs and practices in common with the religion that they have broken off from, but are differentiated by a number of doctrinal differences. In contrast, a denomination is a large, well established religious group."
• When using the word "school" one points at their teaching. There's also a community
• I think it's more beautiful in general to say: Rinzai (School) than Rinzai School
• The article about soto is still called Soto instead of, for example: Soto (Denomination)

I'd like to add some more terminology here. Renzai is the name of a Japanese Buddhist sect/denomination. It is also the name of a monastic lineage. The Chinese name for the lineage is "Linji." The lineage includes great teachers in China, one of whom, Lenji, the lineage is named after.

I say this because Renzai is all of these things.

And definitely, if you do insist that Renzai and Lenji are the same thing, then you should insist that Zen be merged with Cha'an, and soto with its proper Chinese ancestors. And you should also document the other "sudden enlightenment" schools, and make sure there are articles about ancient Chinese schools from the period of the patriarchs forward. Or maybe we should just stick with Renzai. Renzai is a lineage, and you can write it as Lenji, too, if you like to transliterate chinese instead of Japanese.

For one thing, for the record, "Rinzai" (not Renzai) is the name of the Japanese Buddhist denomination, and "Linji" (not Lenji) is the name of both the Chinese lineage and the Chinese teacher. You are perfectly right that "Rinzai" is the Japanese pronunciation of "Linji" the latter and vice versa, so therefore one could definitely say that they are the same thing. I think the more relevant issue, though, is simply that we should have separate articles for separate subjects definitely if but only if we have enough material to make it worthwhile. We shouldn't merge them or separate them just to make a point or follow a pattern. Right now, we have enough material for an article on "Soto", the Japanese sect, and arguably enough for a separate article on "Caodong", the Chinese lineage. We also have enough material for an article on the "Rinzai school", the Japanese denomination, and for a separate article on "Linji", the Chinese person. We do not seem to have much of anything on the Chinese Linji lineage, so we don't have that article -- yet. I would recommend that if you want to write something about that, which would be great, it should begin as a section on the Linji page and then get broken out later once there is enough material. Frankly, the Caodong page is kind of a stretch right now. - Nat Krause 10:16, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, Nat. I want to emphasize, however, that Renzai and Soto are also AMERICAN buddhist denominations, FWIW. This morning in San Francisco, CA, USA, I went to San Francisco Zen Center, a Soto Zen temple. I sat facing a wall, unlike when I used to go to a Renzai temple in Seattle. The fact that Soto and Renzai lineage distinctions have made their way into Western Zen Buddhism is important, but it blurs the line between denomination and lineage since only some, but not all, of the Renzai or Soto temples in the west are affiliated with the Soto-shu or Renzai-shu(?) Japanese organizations.

I don't think Renzai in America is a denomination. --Defenestrate 18:29, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal: A disambiguation page for Lenji (person)/Lenji (chinese spelling) & Renzai (Japanese spelling) lineages/Renzai japanese religious organization.

Proposal the second: Information about these things should be consistent with Japanese and Chinese pages of the same titles. Lenji and Renzai should be offered in katakana and traditional Chinese words.

All in favor? --Defenestrate 18:29, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Most widespread Zen sect?

Isn't Soto more widespread than Rinzai? 91.106.167.126 (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)