Talk:Lipoic acid

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Things to do[edit]

-Please check out the recommendations for the peer review above (click on "archived"). They suggest using Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide as an example of what the article should look like.

-The article is too long and has too many references. Try to stick to recent reviews and not get bogged down in the details of every research article. The lengthy historical list is unnecessary. I propose we list only uses for lipoic acid that are in clinical trials or are approved for use instead of listing every case study.

-I suggest we don't have a section on the basic research on the function of administered lipoic acid and just stick to the established medical knowledge. What a "function" for an administered compound would be is not clear. Qchristensen (talk) 09:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The list of possible benefits should be an actual list, not a run-on sentence.

Lipoic acid has been the subject of numerous research studies and clinical trials. Lipoic acid was shown:

The tag soup makes it nearly impossible to edit, though.

Minor Note[edit]

The use of the word "vicinal" in the second sentence of the opening paragraph is incorrect. "Vicinal" only relates heteroatoms and functional groups to one another through their positions on the carbon framework not through their own heteroatomic connections. For the two sulfur atoms to be vicinal they would have to be bound to adjacent carbons, say C7 and C8 or C6 and C7 instead of C6 and C8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.155.222.31 (talk) 15:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree, and have rephrased the sentence to avoid misuse of the word. Thanks for catching the problem and reporting it here. -- Ed (Edgar181) 16:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Adverse effects[edit]

This may be a serious adverse effect when used in higher dosages.

Mechanisms of antioxidant and pro-oxidant effects of -lipoic acid in the diabetic and nondiabetic kidney.

This study demonstrates that dietary supplementation with 30 mg/kg -lipoic acid for 12 weeks in rats prevents the increase in albuminuria and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis associated with diabetic nephropathy. Our studies indicate that one of the mechanisms by which -lipoic acid exerts this renoprotective effect in rats is via decreasing oxidative stress, specifically, by reducing NADPH-induced generation of O-2 and regulating the expression of NADPH oxidase subunits. Most interestingly, our study shows that the dietary supplementation with the same dose of -lipoic acid is associated with a decline in renal function and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis in the nondiabetic kidney in rats. Thus, these findings indicate that, although -lipoic acid is renoprotective in diabetic nephropathy in rats, it has detrimental effects to the healthy kidney in rats. Ref Article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.222.194 (talk) 16:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible Bias[edit]

It is quite possible that the author has a bias. I do not have the technical background to confirm. In the Effects section, the article references Alpha lipoic Acid for symptomatic peripheral neuropathy in patients with diabetes: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. The reference's abstract says: It is unclear if the significant improvements seen after 3–5 weeks of oral administration at a dosage of >600 mg/day are clinically relevant.. The author summarizes the article as: There is no corresponding clinical benefit taking it by mouth..

So the effects of oral administration are not clinically significant. I've clarified. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 06:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
What happened to stick to the source? Why is it inappropriate to simply state the original study authors uncertainty? Is this not having your cake and eating it too?Khimaris (talk) 21:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
What "uncertainty"? They found no clear clinical benefit. This is faithfully rendered for the general reader as: "there is no good evidence of meaningful benefit". For comparison see the DARE summary: "Oral administration resulted in statistically but not clinically significantly improvements". Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 21:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
The study concludes with: "It is unclear if the significant improvements seen with the oral administration of alpha lipoic acid are clinically relevant." The Dare summary is not an actual part of the article as far as I can tell. It also doesn't state how it derived clinically significant when the original paper stated uncertainty. You should use a separate source if you want to use "there is no good evidence of meaningful benefit" that differs from what the actual paper has in it.Khimaris (talk) 22:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
DARE is part of Cochrane - expert peer-reviewed abstracts. It was just to show my wording is a faithful wording for the general reader. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 22:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't care what DARE is part of. You've added information to the article without properly attributing it. The current source is the original article. Either remove the statement or add a second source for DARE's position on the study. I would do it myself but it would obviously be reverted.Khimaris (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
We summarize secondary sources here, we do not cobble together primary sources to try to undermine high quality secondary sources. If you have a high quality secondary source that contradicts the Cochrane review, please present it. Otherwise, trying to go around WP:MEDRS will not get us anywhere. Yobol (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Yobol, who is this "we" you speak of and who gave "we" the authority to make such flippant statements? I've asked Alex this and I will ask you: Why is it unreasonable to say that Cochrane's review of the literature did not find a any trials?
My head explodes that I have to fight tooth and nail to add such a simple statement to an article. It makes no god damned sense. Khimaris (talk) 03:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem expanding the fact there have been no RCTs discussing dementia; I do have a problem with people adding WP:OR saying there have been without appropriate WP:MEDRS compliant sourcing. "We" is a discussion of what all editors of medical content should be following, specifically WP:MEDRS. You can choose not to follow WP:MEDRS, but you will likely soon find your edits reversed as "we" should be following them. Yobol (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm calling bullshit again. WP:MEDRS is a guideline. I disagree with some of the regulations but I've been following it. Yet somehow "we" get to pick and choose what gets added and how it is worded. There is nothing in WP:MEDRS nor WP:MEDMOS that requires articles to be specifically worded in the fashion you and Alexbrn have chosen. Hopefully "we" can get to the point of not shrieking "FOLLOW MEDRS" and actually address the issues at hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khimaris (talkcontribs) 03:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Calling "bullshit" carries no weight if you don't accept the underlying sourcing principles in use here at Wikipedia. MEDRS is the guideline that is the application of the WP:V policy to biomedical content, so saying "but it's just a guideline" isn't convincing. You need to provide a really compelling reason--one strong enough to sway consensus--that an exception to the general rule of the guideline should be made here. You haven't done that. Zad68 04:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Guidelines and principles are not laws. Please be aware of this fact. Khimaris (talk) 04:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Sure, Wikipedia isn't a legal system or a courtroom, see WP:NOT for all the things Wikipedia is not. Zad68 04:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't a place to disseminate unwarranted condescension, but I think you know that by now...Khimaris (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── It looks like Khimaris has proposed language in an edit that might stick, to resolve this specific content dispute over LA in dementia. I would like to suggest that this section be closed and if there are remaining issues with this content, other bits, or the article in general, that they be re-opened under new sections. Starting out with accusations of bias is no way to productively work toward WP:CONSENSUS, which we all know is the foundation of WP. Jytdog (talk) 08:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Stepping back[edit]

just want to note that this article is a mess. way too technical in some aspects and not enough plain english. lots of content in the lead that is not in the body. am working on cleaning it up... Jytdog (talk) 07:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

ok, first pass is done. needs a lot more work. Jytdog (talk) 08:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Problems with "Biological Function" and "Activity in Mitochondria"" section[edit]

There are major factual problems with this section. The section describes non-mitochonrial things. The mitochondria doesn't have an acetoin dehydrogenase, for example. I'll clean up this section a bit Qchristensen (talk) 07:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Done Qchristensen (talk) 09:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Decreasing lipoic acid levels[edit]

I took out the paragraph on the phenomenon of decreasing lipoic acid levels in sick patients. The references were not reputable (were very old and in obscure journals) and the research yielded no clear conclusions for this article. Qchristensen (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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