Talk:List of Bible verses not included in modern translations

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after AfD[edit]

Still needs renaming as everyone seemed to agree on that (i can only think of really long titles though, so not doing it myself) and sourcing not only from primary sources (I'm not versed in this field, so only added the OR template). --Minimaki (talk) 11:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree it needs a name change as well. When I created this article, I didn't think "omitted" was the right word but couldn't think of anything else. If anyone sees a better title, please go ahead and change it. Tavix (talk) 01:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Names[edit]

Doing a cut and paste of names proposed during the AfD.

  • Textual differences;
  • Bible verses not included in modern translations;
  • List of King James Bible verses not in contemporary versions;
  • List of Bible versed not included in all translations;
  • Differences between the KJV and NIV translations;
  • Bible Verses found only in the King James version. ;
  • KJV-NIV differences;
  • Textual differences in the Bible;
  • Verse differences in the Bible;

Any other proposals to throw into the fray?jonathon (talk) 11:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the last two personally. Textual differences would be best, because it would leave room for further additions, changes. If no one objects, I'll change it this weekend. Tavix (talk) 02:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
"Verse differences" is a bad idea - it suggests a variation in verse numbering, but this is a separate issue, and unrelated to textual differences. "Textual differences" has its own problems - it makes the list much, much longer - there will be several thousand items that could be included. "Omitted verses" has the benefit of narrowing the list down to a convenient size, as well as providing a means of deciding whether the difference is significant or not. And as the lead paragraph in the article currently states, some verses have indeed been "omitted" in the sense that a verse number has been reserved for them. StAnselm (talk) 04:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Omitted Verses implies a standard that does not exist. jonathon (talk) 20:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, for example, we could go with Metzger's Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament and look at all the times he puts "omit verse". StAnselm (talk) 23:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Whilst more than slightly unfair to ask, where does that leave 3 John 1:15, or Esther 9:19a? v11n schemes? If so, how will that article differ from this article? jonathon (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Original Research[edit]

It takes me roughly 30 minutes to spit out a comparison of two translations of the Bible that gives omitted verses, or more than 5% difference in length. Between the copyright issue, and getting tagged as OR, I'm not sure how to add the data,so that it remains in the article.jonathon (talk) 11:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

My concern is mainly - where does the information come from? If it's from a book/paper/article, that should be said and a reference added (see WP:PSTS about using only the actual verses as primary source). --Minimaki (talk) 11:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the lesser known functions of the Bible Study Software I use generates lists of textual differences between translations. IOW, anybody can duplicate it, using either the same software as I use, or one of its major competitors.jonathon (talk) 09:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I see. Maybe mention that in the article, with a reference to the used software. WP:V says The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question. The current sources allow readers to check the particular verses, but not to check if this indeed are the only ones - which is what the article claims. --Minimaki (talk) 13:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Not OR[edit]

This subject is simple and well covered in academic sources. Using primary sources doesn't always mean OR. I don't see NIV footnotes as PS. --Witr (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Phrases[edit]

Whilst the difference in phrases can be interesting, it is essentially subjective. (Gen 1:1 in the KJV omits a phrase that is found in the NIV. An omission that has profound theological implications.) It is fairly easy to work from Genesis to 4 Maccabees, and Matthew, through Didache to show that the two translations have missing phrases in most of those 42K odd verses. (Ignoring for the time being whether or not the NIV should be listed as "missing' entire books, because the complete Anagignoskomena is not included in any currently available editions of the NIV.).jonathon (talk) 02:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The list now even includes differences in individual words, and has become a wholly subjective list. (i.e. WP:Original Research). It should be pruned back to the entire verses listed in reliable secondary sources. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Besides which, if you go down to differences in individual words (which the article does in some cases), you'd probably need to list more than half the verses in the New Testament. Peter Ballard (talk) 12:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the "Phrases" section. It should not be restored without a secondary reference, explaining why the listed phrases are relevant but that thousands of other differences are not listed. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I like to know which policy justify your deletion, or is it a question of too much faith? You are always welcome to improve the article. --Witr (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The section needs cleaning but not extermination. --Witr (talk) 01:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleted on the basis of it being WP:Original Research. Peter Ballard (talk) 08:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
There are too many Bible verses being used as refs in Wp to list here. If it sourced, it can't be OR. Anyway, I like how the article is now, full stop. --Witr (talk) 17:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Referencing a primary document (the Bible) doesn't stop the work from being WP:OR. See Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Peter Ballard (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC) (Modified for politeness Peter Ballard (talk) 01:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC))
"(Gen 1:1 in the KJV omits a phrase that is found in the NIV. An omission that has profound theological implications.)"
No, it doesn't:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Gen 1:1, KJV
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. – Gen 1:1, NIV
Except for using heavens in the plural, rather than the singular, the NIV is identical to the KJV. 64.85.240.22 (talk) 08:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Interpolations or omissions[edit]

It is rather list of Byzantine and Erasmian interpolations. The KJV is not original text of New Testament. Some interpolations were inserted by Erasmus, and they did not exist in Greek text of New Testament before. It is list of differences between KJV and RSV. Title of the article is not neutral. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 02:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The name is not accurate. Would support "Bible verses not included in modern translations" instead. --Witr (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed before, of course. In my mind, the key lies that the verse numbers have been reserved. So in modern translations the verse number is actually skipped - e.g. in the NIV, the numbering in Matthew 17 jumps from verse 20 to verse 22. Hence, we can talk about "omitted verses" without prejudice to the question of whether the words are original or not. But the section "List of omitted Bible words and phrases" is more recent, and really does not belong. I'd be happy if that was deleted. StAnselm (talk) 02:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
In fact, I've gone ahead and deleted it. Should've kept a closer eye on this article and removed it earlier. StAnselm (talk) 02:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with deletion of phrases. This list pertains to verse numberings that have been reserved and not what words have been "omitted". Besides, its subjunctive material as well. Who decides if a word is actually left out or if it is a translational difference in which the sentence still maintains original meaning. Tavix (talk) 20:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: We have access to the respective Greek Texts (Textus Receptus for the King James, United Bible Societies or something very similar for the modern translations), so we know when the underlying Greek is different. The problem is that there are many, many thousands of differences, and deciding which to include is subjective (i.e. is WP:Original Research). Peter Ballard (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you understand what OR is. --Witr (talk) 18:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

NRSV omissions[edit]

The NRSV does not in fact omit 2 Corinthians 13:14 nor James 1:8, but simply folds them into the preceeding verses (2Cor 13:13 and James 1:7). I think the RSV does the same thing for James 1:8. Evercat (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Latest Editing War[edit]

Over the past couple of days, User:Tonyjustme has been attempting to edit the page; but, User:Hrafn and User:PMDrive1061 have been reverting User:Tonyjustme's additions. From my inspection of the history, it appears that User:Tonyjustme is adding information documented in the NKJV's footnotes (see What does NU-Text and M-Text mean in the footnotes?).

User:Hrafn and User:PMDrive1061, rather than treating these edits as vandalism, why not engage User:Tonyjustme in a discussion and coach him/her through the process of robustly adding information to a WP entry? Your deletionist behaviour is very abrasive to new WP contributors, and doesn't do anything to encourage new contributors to join in and improve WP.

Christopher Rath (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Christopher: (i) I was not "treating these edits as vandalism". As my edit summary: "Unsourced" indicated, I was reverting because no citations were given. This is standard practice (see for example {{Uw-unsourced2}}). (ii) Without any additional information, the redlinked 'NU-Text's and 'M-Text's would simply confuse the average reader. If you want to provide proper citations for the material, and/or explanations of what these two terms mean, then you're welcome to do so. However, it is unreasonable of you to expect editors to make a comment on talk every time they revert unsourced additions. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Alibi[edit]

The word "alibi" is used wrongly here. It means "elsewhere" in Latin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 12:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The word "alibi" has been replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 11:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Lead Section doubts and comments[edit]

I have the following concerns:

  1. Modern translations are not "based on the Alexandrian-type manuscripts". Bruce Metzger wrote in 1964 "they [scholars] are still inclined to regard the Alexandrian text as on the whole the best ancient recension and the one most nearly approximating to the original" (The Text of the New Testament, p.216), but this is a conclusion rather than a starting point. Furthermore, he emphasises the important of internal evidence in deciding the text and this has nothing at all to do with the manuscript type - see his Textual Commentary on the New Testament (UBS:1974).
  2. To say that "verse numbers have been reserved" even in translations seems to imply that the translation is considering the possibility of reinstating them. It is unsourced and there is a very much simpler explanation: to renumber the remaining verses in a chapter after an omission would cause enormous confusion and many difficulties.
  3. It is totally illogical to restrict this listing to single verses. The groups of verses omitted are significant and on a similar footing. I suggest adding at least, Mark 16:9-end; John 7:53-8:12 and 1 John 5:7b-8

Finally on a more general level, the article may well be in breach of copyright by citing the NIV. Jpacobb (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, the New American Standard Bible was not "commissioned by the Catholic church," as is stated in the opening paragraph. It was commissioned by F. Dewey Lockman, a Baptist, and it has never included the Apocrypha or the deuterocanonical books or been issued in a Catholic edition. Someone has obviously confused it with the New American Bible, which IS a Catholic version (but was not "revised in 1977"). I have no idea which version contains the verses discussed in this article. Crassiodorus (talk) 04:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Acts 8:37 - recent addition[edit]

I considered removing Alexander's suggestion as giving undue weight to an isolated and improbable explanation. To eliminate the support for immediate baptism in favour of delaying it, one would have to omit vv 36,38 and 39a as well. It should also be noted that (i) the multiple minor variations in the alleged insertion suggest that different copyists sensed the need for an insertion and probably followed local liturgical precedents; (ii) the use of the definite article before "Jesus Christ" in v.37 though not evident in the ET is never found in Acts. I favour removing the insertion unless it can be shown to have been taken up seriously by a respectable number of reliable sources. Jpacobb (talk) 18:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Why not mention Mark 6:11, second part, which is rarely found in modern translations of the bible: Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 214.2.208.246 (talk) 00:56, 9 April 2014 (UTC)bill34543@yahoo.com (sorry if I am not using this correctly.)

Title change[edit]

Looking back, an editor thought that (among other article titles) that one of the following makes more sense. The current title sounds like modern people have thrown out material because they Just Didn't Like It, or because we are into fabrication or censorship. More truthful would be:

  • List of King James Bible verses not in contemporary versions;
  • Differences between the KJV and NIV translations;
  • Bible Verses found only in the King James version. ;
  • KJV-NIV differences;

Student7 (talk) 20:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)