Talk:List of Formula One drivers

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Neel Jani[edit]

Neel Jani's just been added by an IP address who also added some apparent nonsense to the List of Formula One constructors. As far as I can see he's only ever been a third driver - does that count for this list? If not, he should be removed. 4u1e 07:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Bobby Ball[edit]

Bobby Ball's link is to a Comedian born in 1944, thus when he's racing would make him 7. I'm not sure how to correct the problem, but I just wanted to let someone know who could, Thanks. ~S.

South African Flags[edit]

A precedent has been established elsewhere that we use the flag that would have been used at the time to represent a driver - this allows them to remain consistent and not to have to make completely arbitrary choices where, for example, a country has split or merged over the history of the championship. It also helps with issues like use of England vs UK flags, where again employing the flag used at the time gives us a robust position.

On that basis, I've just changed a bunch of SA flags to the pre 1990s one, since all of the SA drivers pre-date the post-apartheid flag change. Happy to discuss. 4u1e 07:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made some corrections to flags (such as Canada pre-1965), but the question becomes what do we do for a driver that might have raced during one flag and finished his career under another flag? The359 06:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Upon going through, I've found places where this is a problem:
Those are the only problems I've found. I've left them with the modern flag for now. The359 07:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
As it can't be 'correct', I suggest using the most recent relevant one. 4u1e 09:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Map[edit]

World map showing F1 driver nationalities.

I have created this map, which shows the geographical distribution of which countries F1 drivers have come from. Would it be suitable for inclusion in the article?--Diniz 20:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you possibly make it so different colours represent different numbers of drivers - eg blue for 1-10 drivers, green for 11-20, etc? – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

How about this chloropleth version?--Diniz 17:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 04:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Where should it go? Seeing as you brought this list up to FA standard, I think you should decide.--Diniz 11:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Table widths[edit]

Does anyone else think it would be better if all the tables were the same width? - DH85868993 12:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible extensions/improvements(?) to the Nationalities table[edit]

A couple of ideas I had for the Nationalities table:

  • add Wins per country (and number of drivers who achieved them)
  • Make the columns sortable (in which case we might no longer need the "rank" value in the "Number of Drivers" column)

DH85868993 01:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Australia have three WDC? Hulme, Brabham, Jones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.36.204 (talk) 18:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It would if Hulme hadn't been from New Zealand. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetlical order of some names[edit]

I was just wondering, should Cristiano da Matta and Hermano da Silva Ramos be sorted under D, as they are now, or should they be sorted under M and S respectively? I'm not familiar with how the Portuguese-speaking are sorting names of this kind. The same can be said about some other people from countries in which Romance languages are spoken, and also some South Africans. John Anderson 15:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I found some answers here, but not all: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Archive 4#Alphabetizing conventions for names with "von". I'll write a question about this at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions too. John Anderson 22:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

'This page is accurate up to and including the 2007 Belgian Grand Prix (September 16, 2007)'[edit]

and yet it lists the US as having 1 current driver. Scott Speed was released from contract on july 31st.. ~ Bungalowbill —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 05:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

All drivers who have competed during 2007 are considered "current". You will notice that Speed, Winkelhock and Albers are still shown in bold (indicating "current") in the alphabetical tables. DH85868993 05:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I edited so that the "current" drivers are only those who raced in the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix. I can revert it if this is unfavoured. Ian X490 03:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of starts[edit]

It looks as though when the "Entries (Starts)" column was split into two columns ("Entries" and "Starts"), some (many? most? all?) of the drivers whose number of starts equals their number of entries ended up with "Starts = 0" by mistake (e.g. Michael Andretti has "Entries = 13, Starts = 0" - he should have "Entries = 13, Starts = 13"). I'll fix them up on the weekend unless anyone else feels enthused to do it before then. (In case anyone does feel enthused, here's my tip for how to approach the task: For each driver with "Starts = 0", check to see if they're listed on List of Formula One drivers who never qualified for a race - if they are, then "Starts = 0" is probably correct; otherwise, change their number of Starts to the same as their number of Entries (and maybe also check the driver's article just to be sure)). DH85868993 (talk) 21:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Done. (They were correct from the letter 'C' onwards). DH85868993 (talk) 07:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Footnote 1[edit]

Not sure, but would it be prudent to note in the footnote that the scale of points awarded has changed on occasion (I don't propose that we list each change of format (or worse, most points based on a particular scale - that would be a nightmare given the current top-ten system) - so the points scored by a driver in the fifties might not be directly comparable to a points tally accumulated by a modern driver (who presumably takes advantage of the fact second place now scores more points than first has traditionally achieved). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.18.179 (talk) 11:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. I've updated the note. DH85868993 (talk) 12:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Sortable Column[edit]

In the nationality section the sortable columns: Driver's that have won a championship & Total Championships, Great Britain gets sorted to the incorrect place (with the one's, not the ten's). I do not know how to fix it, so I am trying to make someone aware that can. Editadam 22:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editadam (talkcontribs)

Fixed (a while back). DH85868993 (talk) 12:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Column Last race Driver(s)[edit]

This column in the nations table, needs to have its data changed. We show the CURRENT drivers for each nation, but the column designates that it should be the LAST race driver for each nation. So we should either

a) change the column name to Current race Driver(s)

b) change all of the dashes (for nations that do not have a current driver) to the nation's last driver's name, and the event he last raced in. Beside the names' of the drivers who are active, we could put "(active)" or the last grand prix. Thoughts? Editadam 11:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe "Last race driver(s)" is supposed to mean "driver(s) from that country who competed in the last (i.e. most recent) race" not "last driver(s) from that country who competed in a race". But I agree it's unclear. Perhaps we should merge the contents of the "Last race driver(s)" column into the "Drivers in last race" column, e.g. so that the "Drivers in last race" column for Australia would contain "2 (Mark Webber, Daniel Ricciardo)". DH85868993 (talk) 12:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
That is fine, but I was just thinking that if we have a column for the first driver from each nation, we should have one for the last (like we do in many templates/articles). Editadam 12:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Agree with the need for clarity. I have no objection in principle to the column's scope being changed so that the last driver to race for each nation is listed. However, I'm not sure what we would call such a column so as not to cause problems down the line. The benefit of "Drivers in last race" over "Last drivers" is that no-one could possibly read the former to include drivers who are contracted to a team but yet to actually race. —WFC— 13:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Depending on what data is to be shown either Current race drivers would be sufficient, or Last race drivers and change the data to show for all nations the most recent competitors and mirror First race driver as indicate in the neighbouring column.
Simple. --Falcadore (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I say we go with the Last race drivers as the heading and do as Falcadore suggested, because then we would still be showing the current drivers for each nation that has one. Editadam 12:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Formula Two entries in Formula One races[edit]

Re-post from my talk page:

Another user posted this:

You deleted Xavier Perrot from List of Formula One drivers, because Perrot drove formula 2 car. OK. Then why on the list there are other drivers who was driving only formula 2 cars?

My response:

You make a very good point. The policy on this issue has always been: In order for a driver to be included in the list, they are supposed to have at least one entry as a formula one driver (it is not called the list of formula two drivers). However, these drivers have been included. I think these other drivers need to be deleted. Editadam 12:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
The other point is that Perrot did drive an F1 car, just not in a World Championship race, which is where the title of this article is misleading. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:53, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Which would be fixed with a better written lead which correctly defines the contents, what is included, what is excluded. Don't need to change the title, just explain it better. --Falcadore (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
The championship was only for F2 cars in 1952-53. Is anyone whose only entries came during this period going to be removed as well? Readro (talk) 22:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I would say no, as were eligible score points in the world championship. I think that should be the criteria, whether you were eligible to score points toward the world championship. Editadam 22:39, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Is that not verging on original research? Wouldn't it be better to include the drivers who drove in Formula Two cars and add a note? Gerhard Berger came sixth at the 1984 Italian Grand Prix in a bona fide Formula One car but was ineligible for points - I'd still consider it an entry and able to contribute towards his statistics. I would say that if a driver competes in a championship race, they should be in the list regardless of car or eligibility for points. Readro (talk) 22:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Despite the name, the current criterion for inclusion in this list is participation in a race which counted for the World Championship. The issue with Perrot is that the event in which he competed, the 1969 German Grand Prix was a little unusual - both grandprix.com and Mike Lang's Grand Prix! state that "a Formula 2 race was held concurrently with the Formula 1 race" and that the Formula 2 race had a separate grid. So, by competing in the F2 race, did Perrot compete in the World Championship event? Formula1.com, ChicaneF1 and FORIX (subscription site) only list the F1 entries (and ChicaneF1 and FORIX don't list Perrot in their driver lists), suggesting that as far as they are concerned, Perrot did not participate in the World Championship event. Contrast this with, say, the 1958 German Grand Prix, where the F2 cars were interspersed with the F1 cars on the same grid: Formula1.com, ChicaneF1 and FORIX all list both the F1 and F2 entries, and ChicaneF1 and FORIX both list Goethals in their driver lists, suggesting that as far as they are concerned, Goethals did participate in a World Championship event. DH85868993 (talk) 22:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Alejandro de Tomaso[edit]

I've just noted that Alejandro de Tomaso is listed here as both Argentine and Italian, whereas on the 1957 and 1959 pages and those for the Grand Prix he competed in (1957 Argentine Grand Prix and 1959 United States Grand Prix) he is listed as Argentine only. Do we have a source for that ? I can't find a single website indicating under which flag he has raced these Grand Prix. Maimai009 11:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

GrandPrix.com, DriverDB and FORIX (subscription site) all list his nationality as "Argentina". ChicaneF1 and StatsF1 list his nationality as "Italy" (both noting however that he was born in Argentina). Although I'm not sure that's much help! DH85868993 (talk) 12:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Recently I was looking for such a thing, and I found 3 web sites where de Tomaso was argentinian: f1pulse.com f1pulse.com f1zone.net f1zone.net f1paddock.biz f1paddock.biz Damian27 (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Source[edit]

Where did all this data come from? I've checked quite a few against http://www.driverdb.com and found many discrepancies. I have no idea if that's a reliable source but there are no others presented in the article for the vast majority of drivers. Without proper sourcing I think this list will soon lose its featured status and, worse, may need removing if we can't trust the data. violet/riga [talk] 23:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that the values on this page are (intended to be) consistent with the values in the infoboxes on the individual driver pages, which themselves are consistent with/derived from the individual driver results tables, which themselves are consistent with/derived from the race results at www.formula1.com, except where modified by various discussions held over the years. I suspect there isn't a single external reliable source which exactly matches all the values on this page. Off the top of my head, I'd estimate a 95% match with FORIX, but that's just an educated guess. So what to do about it? One easy "solution" would be to add some extra references (e.g. FORIX, www.chicanef1.com, www.autocoursegpa.com, etc) to the "References" section, on the assumption that every value on the page would be supported by at least one of the references (noting that there are discrepancies between the various external sources - see Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One/Disputed results for examples). An alternative would be to nominate a "base" source (e.g. FORIX) and then find references for each data item which doesn't match the base source. That would be a fairly time-consuming task. DH85868993 (talk) 03:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
As someone who played a big part in this list's first FLRC, I would strongly caution against starting a second one at this stage. One of the least attractive jobs for a reviewer is to go through sources on a topic with which they are not familiar, so we should only be going for that as a last resort, if this page's watchers can't get the necessary work done. I think this is a matter of deciding which source we are going to use as the "base" source, make this clear in the list, and then ensuring that statistics for non-active drivers correspond exactly with that one. Once that's done, we should ensure that we have footnotes for all known disputed statistics. It will be a big job, but now is the ideal time to do it, as this work will need to be done anyway when Wikidata launches.

So, which source are we going to go for? —WFC— 05:23, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Practically no source is perfectly accurate across the board. The official F1.com source is a basketcase, and the best source (FORIX) is a pay site. I've never thought that Chicane F1 is a reliable source - it just seems to copy other sources. If we took FORIX and used its information, except where we know or suspect it to be wrong, is that WP:OR? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
This is perhaps an extremely long example – on a list like this you wouldn't want to spend five lines to explain a minor statistical deviation – but the basic principles behind that footnote are sound. It's not original research to deviate from our "base" source in particular instances, provided that the reader understands why we have done so in each instance. —WFC— 16:42, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Removal of flags[edit]

Per MOS:FLAG I am removing the flags from this article. You can thank Qwyrxian for their removal, if you have a problem with it go to him. He's the one who said I am welcome to remove them. Thank you and have a nice day.) JonnyBonesJones (talk) 14:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

That's allright, as long as you have someone to take responsibility for you. --Falcadore (talk) 17:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome, have a nice day. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 17:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I have undone these changes. They are clearly pointy changes, as JBJ has been informed on his talk page, and also because:

  • the changes make the by nationality section incomprehensible
  • the lede speaks of drivers by their nationality
  • at every race, the flags of drivers on the podium are displayed, the winner's victory is celebrated with his country's national anthem
  • the victor's team is celebrated with the team's national anthem
  • the FIA uses flags with results, etc
  • this is not a MMA page, please keep that fight there.

Is there consensus supporting my reversion? EdChem (talk) 02:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry that this has come over to F1 from MMA, however there is one point that EdChem overlooked, in order to race in F1 you need to be licensed by your national sporting body the same applies for teams, for example Red Bull Racing based in the UK represents Austria and it is that flag/anthem that is used in the event of a win. Another example is when an appeal is lodged with the FIA it is lodged by the national body on behalf of "their" team or driver, clear indication of representative capacity. Mtking (edits) 02:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Well it was Qwyrxian who said it was OK to remove the flags. How is it pointy? Did I mention anything about MMA on this page? No I did not. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 09:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Qwyrxian did not say that it was OK to remove the flags. EdChem (talk) 11:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Mtking, where is your WP:RS, or is that original research? JonnyBonesJones (talk) 10:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
EdChem nobody but you and Mtking mentioned MMA on this page. All I said was it violates MOS:FLAG, and I did what an admin said was ok to do. So yea, I dont like your false accusations. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 10:39, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Your edit was pointy as you don't advocate removing flags, you are just trying to prove your MMA case by stirring up trouble in the F1 area. Your edit summaries and comments make this clear. You have already accused me of making a personal attack recently, an accusation MBisanz indicated was wrong. Maybe you could consider a less combative approach to Wikipedia, before you end up repeating last week's experience of getting blocked. Just a suggestion. EdChem (talk) 11:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Do you only make edits other people give you approval to do? --Falcadore (talk) 10:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
If you're directing that at me, I started a discussion in the hope that an edit war not occur. EdChem (talk) 11:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
No I was not. Just that the original edit reason on this subject is one of the strangest wordings I've seen, with JonnyBonesJones saying "Hey don't blame me for my edit". It was a little... odd. Everyone does their own edits. --Falcadore (talk) 14:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Looks like original research to me. Take a look at 2012_Formula_One_season#Teams_and_drivers, there are three countries "representing" UK, and two for Italy. It looks like any country can license multiple Formula 1 teams. And drivers have to pay their own separate license[1]. If they were representing a country, then the country would pay that license.
And drivers represent their teams, not their own countries and not the country that has licensed the team. Fernando Alonso is from Spain, but he was first with Minardi (Italy) then Renault (France) then McLaren (UK) then Renault again (France) then Ferrari (Italy). Which is the "correct" flag?
And this article used the Spanish flag for Alonso. Fernando doesn't represent Spain in Formula One, that's his nationality not his representation. This is against MOS:FLAG#Appropriate_use.
However, List_of_Formula_One_drivers#By_nationality seems to be an appropriate use and flags because "(...) the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." --Enric Naval (talk) 11:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Policy perspective - According to MOS:FLAG#Use of flags for sportspersons, if a sportsperson has represented a nation or has declared for a nation, then the national flag as determined by the sport governing body should be used (these can differ from countries' political national flags). The governing body for Formula One is the FIA and they use national designations for each driver, see their list of 2012 classifications in which the nationality of each driver is included under their name. Policy dictates we follow the governing body, and they give nationalities to the drivers - like ESP and hence our use of the Spanish flag for Alonso. Further, the FIA has weighed in on nationalities in the past. For example, F1 driver David Coulthard is Scottish and wanted to use the Scottish flag when he was on the podium, but this was vetoes by the FIA and the Union Jack was used.
Common sense perspective - the podium ceremony after each race is controlled by the FIA, and it includes the national flags of the top three drivers being shown as the winner's national anthem plays. Following this, the national anthem for the team is played (unless the anthem is the same). For an Alonso victory, the Spanish national anthem is played as he stands in front of the Spanish flag, followed by the Italian national anthem for his current team (Ferrari). Thus, a driver represents both his nation (as determined by the FIA by looking to the national organisation that issued the super-license) and his team (which is itself linked to a nation - Austria for Red Bull, for example, despite the team's headquarters being in England). EdChem (talk) 11:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Nationality has always been a big part of Formula One, particularly for drivers. Flags are painted on cars, anthems played at ceremonies, prior to the commercialisation of vehicle liveries racing teams wore national colour schemes. From what I saw at the Olympic 100 m mens there were at least three different competitors from Jamaica. Why must there be only one? Bobsled at the winter Olympics allows more than one team per nation, so it is not quite as clear cut as perhaps you suggest.
This is one of those instances where motor racing is different to most sports. It is both a team sport and an individual sport at the same time, so it does not fit into neat holes applied to most sports.
Football has both international and domestic competitions. Motor racing tends to compress the two together. So have have a look and a think, then make a conclusion. --Falcadore (talk) 11:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I thought it was original research, but then I found International Formula One Procedure Rules:
3.5.1.2 Nationals - A National of a country can represent only that country in international sporting events provided that if he has already represented a country, he may not represent another country unless:
  • A. His former country has been incorporated into another state.
  • B. He has become a naturalized citizen of another country and at least three years have elapsed from the date of his application for such naturalization.
  • C. Through marriage, a person changes his/her nationality and acquires the nationality of his/her spouse.
For me, the deciding factor is that Fernando Alonso's helmet has the colors of the flag of Spain and the Prince of Asturias [2]. And I can find (unreliable) sources saying that nationalities (not countries) are represented by drivers[3]. And he waves the flag of Spain right after winning and getting out of the car[4]. And the anthem of Spain is played in the podium when he wins.[5] I retract my objection to the flags in the tables, since drivers do represent their country/nationality. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
EdChem, Mtking, it doesnt sound like you are assuming good faith. How am I trying to combat anyone? JonnyBonesJones (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
You have reverted to your version during discussion - that is combative. You have not engaged with my explanation of why the flags are MOS compliant. You are ignoring that the consensus at the F1 WikiProject is that the flags are consistent with the MOS. And, you have left a featured list-level article with a section (List_of_Formula_One_drivers#By_nationality) that is now gibberish as you have removed all the nationalities. That is not improving encyclopaedic content, it is damaging it. Your actions are becoming disruptive. Please stop. Please discuss rather than trying to continue fighting for including flags at MMA by removing them from tennis and F1 articles as your actions are WP:POINTy. If your goal is to win support for your position at MMA, I suggest to you that your actions are counter-productive. EdChem (talk) 13:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I did not revert to MY version, I reverted to the version that follows wikipedia guidelines, and I dont think F1 racing has anything to do with combat, therefore by actions are not combative. You are assuming bad faith of me EdChem, remember, wikipedia is not about winning! And I am discussing this with you right now. I havent mentioned MMA in this article, you did. As far as the nationality thing, I dont know if thats allowed on wikipedia, if it is you are allowed to restore flags to that area only. But if theres nothing about nationality, then you cant use flags because it violates the guidelines. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 13:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
It is your interpretation of the guidelines and that is what is being referred to. If the is a conflict of editting, the editting stops, the conflict is solved, then the consensus edit is then installed. At least that is my interpretation of how wikipedia is supposed to work. --Falcadore (talk) 14:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Enric Naval thank you for being civil and bringing up good points. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 12:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Adjusted points[edit]

Would it make sense to add the drivers' points according to the newest point-scoring system (25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1) for the top 10 places? It would make the comparison between drivers easier, even though it's biased towards the recent years because of the number of races in one season. I'm putting this forward because I recently finished that calculation for all Grands Prix. --Janisterzaj (talk) 18:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it would improve the article to add yet another column. I do think it would help to move the footnote regarding the difference in point systems above the table, as it would help readers who may not have any knowledge in F1 better understand the table. JohnMcButts (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right, an additional column would just add confusion. Thanks for the quick answer! --Janisterzaj (talk) 18:58, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Are you advocating making something up that never existed? --Falcadore (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
No, no. I just suggested a system that would be more efficient in comparing drivers. A statistic, if you like. --Janisterzaj (talk) 19:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
But a made up one yes? Changing the results of 1950s into 2000s utilising a point system that did not exist in those periods yes? --Falcadore (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not here to argue. A lot of statistics regarding sports are "made up". In basketball, one of the most used stats is "Per 36 minutes", which is a made up statistic, as it extrapolates. Could you explain why it's such a problem utilising the current point system?--Janisterzaj (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Original research is a wikipedia policy which forbids this sort of revisionism. Put more simply, Wikipedia records what is, not what might have been. --Falcadore (talk) 20:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks for the heads up.--Janisterzaj (talk) 20:39, 6 January 2014 (UTC)