Talk:List of Freemasons (A–D)

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Creating page... this page is the result of a split of our former List of Freemasons articles. That page was getting overly long and so has been divided into smaller alphabetical chunks. Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Talk Page Instructions[edit]

This talk page is for discussing entries to this specific list article - ie entries for List of Freemasons (A - D). For centralized discussion on generalized issues or questions (that might concern all of our "List of Freemasons" articles) please post at the main article talk page: Talk:List of Freemasons. Thank you Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


To support the claim that Atatürk was a Freemason, three sources are presented, but only one passes WP:RS, as the other two are self-published websites and non-reliable in any case. The third source is not available online, though it would be interesting to have a quote to know what it claims, exactly. Searching for "Macedonia Risorta Atatürk" in Google Books provide few results, but one of those reads (from snippet view, own translation): "The issue is more complex, because the loggia 'Macedonia Risorta' has been accused of having recruited him retrospectively". So at very least, it shouldn't be presented as an uncontroversial fact.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

We have discussed the Ataturk entry multiple times already (see the archives at Talk:List of Freemasons). Each time there was solid consensus that the sources were reliable enough for us to include him on the list. Unless there is some new evidence to be considered, I don't think that consensus will change. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how or where you proved that those citations are reliable. They are indisputably self-published, and one of them is a dead link.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
From their website: "Palestine Lodge No.189. Palestine is a growing lodge located in Catonsville, MD." Published on a wordpress-y website. How exactly was it decided that they are a reliable source on the history of masonic lodges in Turkey?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Look at the bottom of the page at the Palistine Lodge website... they are actually acting as a re-publisher. The original published source was "Freemasonry Today" - The Official Journal of the United Grand Lodge of England... and that original publication was a transcription of a talk given by a former Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey... ie someone we can call an expert on the subject of Turkish Freemasonry. That's why it is reliable.
I have removed the Abby Lodge website (which seems to have repeated dead link issues)... and have replaced it with a citation to Jasper Ridley's "The Freemasons" (see the snippet). This is hardly a self-published source. Blueboar (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I did notice that it claims to be copied from another source, and this raises the question if a) this claim is reliable, and the article is really from that source (a search for 'Semih Tezcan' on the Freemasonry Today website returns no hits) and b) if the source itself is indeed reliable. It's a small-circulation magazine, so I doubt it. Jasper Ridley is an obvious improvement, but all the claims that are not supported by his book should be removed, and a proper quote added (I can't access the preview to verify). The same goes for the other book quote, I don't see why the 'quote needed' tag should be removed.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 18:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Um "Freemasonry Today" has a circulation of over a quarter million subscribers in the UK and US. That's not a small-circulation magazine. Have you tried searching the Freemasonry Today website for "Kaya Pasakay" or "Freemasonry in Turkey"? (note... The original publication may date from the days when Freemasonry Today was printed in dead tree format... before the Journal went digital... in which case it may not be scanned into their archives.) As for Hamill... I see no need for a quote. We cite the specific page in the book where the information can be found... Go to a library and check out the book. See our WP:Verifiability policy... Information simply needs to be verifiable, it does not need to be easily verifiable. Blueboar (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Freemasonry Today doesn't have an article, which would be unusual for a publication with that many subscribers. Anyway, its reliability for this matter is not ascertained, and for now the real source is the Palestine Lodge of Catonsville, MD, which means it can't stay in the article. As for adding the quote, you're not required to add it, of course, even if it would take you a few seconds to do so if you have access to the book (and how you could check its content otherwise?). But that means that I'm equally allowed to tag it with a quote needed tag, which I intend to do.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 18:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Please stop vandalizing the list by removing this entry... you have admitted at WP:RSN that Jasper Ridley is a reliable source... S. Brent Morris and John Hamill are two of the most respected Masonic historians in the world (Morris is editor of the Scottish Rite Journal and was the first American to be elected Master of Quatuor Coronati Lodge - the oldest and most respected research lodge in the world... Hamill is the Librarian of the United Grand Lodge of England). Pasakay is a former Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey. These are experts with access to the relevant records. They are highly reliable sources. While they may disagree on the name of the lodge that Ataturk joined, they are united in agreeing that he was a Freemason. That is more than enough to include Ataturk on the list. I have had enough of this... If you continue to remove the entry, I will report you to WP:ANI. Blueboar (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The opinion of other editors at the WP:RSN request that you started led me to reconsider my position on your sources. If you want to go WP:FORUMSHOPping and open a ANI report go ahead, but that will only harm your reputation, not change the outcome.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
OK... the editors at RSN found a source they consider reliable... I have used that. Hopefully this is now settled. Blueboar (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Creating a "Past discussions on disputed entries" archive?[edit]

To avoid having to go through the same discussions over and over again... perhaps we should create a special "Past discussions on disputed entries" archive. We could put a permanent link to this archive at the top of the talk page (and perhaps even in hidden text next to the entry in the article) at the top of the talk pages at each of the alphabetical sub-articles. That way future editors would be able to check the consensus before they raise the issue yet again. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

OK... I have created an archive page (see: Talk:List of Freemasons (A - D) /Archive - Past discussions on disputed entries)... now I just need to figure out how to link it in the archives search box. Blueboar (talk) 13:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Buzz Aldrin and Salvador Allende[edit]

Again, another example of a self-published masonic website (in this case used to source a claim that a prominent figure was a Freemason. Similar claims (WP:REDFLAG) can only be supported by quality sources, like scholarly publications.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Re-added Aldrin with four cites. In the future, please discuss this list on the main list's talk: Talk:List of Freemasons. Secondly, if you think a person is not listed with a good cite, replace the bad cite with "citation needed" and then discuss it on the talk page. Don't just delete the entry. Eric Cable  |  Talk  19:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
The replacement sources are not reliable, they're all self-published from masonic sources. On top of that, since Buzz Aldrin is still alive, claims about him should be made according to WP:BLP. Deleting the entry was the right thing to do, and it still is, until adequate sources are provided.--[[User:|eh bien mon prince]] (talk) 11:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
If you consider the BC&Y website unreliable, you are going to end up removing about half of this list (which would be very disruptive)... and challenging key statements in almost all of the other articles under the Freemasonry WikiProject. We use it extensively. The Project considers it one of the most reliable Masonic web sites that exists.
Before you do that, however, you might want to re-read WP:SPS... Self published sources are acceptable when the author qualifies as a subject matter expert. Trever McKeown (the editor of the BC&Y website) most definitely qualifies as a subject matter expert. Blueboar (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As the issue with Underlying lk has not yet been completely solved, I took the liberty of re-adding Allende and Desmons with their old sources and also supported by one new source.--The Theosophist (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)