Talk:List of German queens

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Titles and coronations[edit]

Strictly speaking, Elizabeth of Pommern didn't become Empress in 1368; she'd already been Empress since 1363, when she married Charles IV who was already Emperor, and acquired the title in his right. The coronation was a formality. I'd originally intended to have a column for coronations, but (1) couldn't find the data for the whole list and (2) there would have to be columns for Germany as well as the Empire and sometimes also Italy and Burgundy. Too much. Maybe they could be listed in an auxiliary article. RandomCritic 17:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear. According to one book on Empress Matilda, she was never truly Empress, because she had not been crowned as such by a recognised Pope. Thus, she apparently was Queen of Germany (having been crowned as such after going to Germany), but not Empress (she claimed she had been anointed as such by the Pope, but had only been crowned as Empress by an anti-Pope). This being according to The Empress Matilda by Marjorie Chibnall. On the other hand, Chibnall claims that 'Empress-consort' would - theoretically - have been appropriate. All in all, I think perhaps trying to work in coronation dates - where available - into the boxes would be best. Michaelsanders 19:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Basically, the problem stems from the fact that 'Holy Roman Emperor' was a formal title only, bestowed by the Pope, and without territory. So where in a normal Kingdom, the title of Queen would automatically be bestowed upon the King's wife when they married, the title 'Holy Roman Empress' lay specifically within the gift of the Pope as much as that of Emperor. So whilst logically the wife of the Holy Roman Emperor would be the Empress consort, it wasn't necessarily the case. I suppose if we know enough coronation dates for the Queens, we could list their Papal crowning as Empress in a separate column. Michaelsanders 19:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The matter is a bit tricky because of the peculiar status of the Imperial dignity (which had no formal mark of inception other than the coronation), but I find it hard to believe that it's really so much different from that of other European monarchies, where the wife of a king is, crowned or not, the queen. The question of Imperial coronations for Empresses is a fascinating one, but I have serious doubts about whether "Empress" was ever a dignity separable and independent from "Empress consort"; if it were, it would imply that the Pope could crown an Empress who was not the wife of the Emperor, and that she would continue as Empress plain and simple, not "Empress Dowager", after her husband's death. Anyway, Matilda made continual (and effective) use of her "Empress" title, quite apart from the coronation. Did any of her contemporaries ever challenge her on the subject? RandomCritic 19:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
By way of comparison, there's an article Coronation of the British monarch and List of coronations of British monarchs, the latter giving dates for the coronations of queens as well as kings. Perhaps an article Coronation of the Holy Roman Emperor could be created, which would include both details of the coronation itself , and a list of coronations, dates, officiants, and whether they were solitary or with an Empress or of an Empress alone. The Imperial coronation was a remarkably infrequent event; I count only twenty times that an Emperor was crowned from 962 to 1530 -- only sixteen times by a Pope. RandomCritic 20:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Probably the best solution. As for continuing as Empress after the death of the husband, I suppose she would - indeed, that's why Matilda continued to use the title even after her remarriage (she apparently confused her contemporaries, because she led them to believe she had been crowned by the Pope, whereas she'd been legitimately crowned Queen of Germany, crowned Empress by an anti-Pope or someone claiming Papal authority, and had been married to an anointed Emperor). I think something of the same holds, or held, true for Queens everywhere - where a Dowager Duchess could no longer use her title after remarriage, a Queen dowager would still be Queen after remarriage, because she had been crowned and anointed as such (duchesses aren't anointed). I think, however, for the purposes of this article, that it would be best to simply list them as becoming Empress consort whenever appropriate, and leave the complexities of crowning and titles to your suggested separate article. Michaelsanders 20:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Basta![edit]

If there are problems with the information and/or sourcing in this article we could, like, discuss them -- that's what the Talk page is for. Going immediately to revert warring is completely uncool. I'm reproducing both versions below so there can be discussion. In the meantime, I've removed both versions.RandomCritic 21:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Version A[edit]

The titles Queen of Germany and Queen of the Romans were subsidiary titles to that of Holy Roman Empress, and belonged to the consort of the King of Germany, or the King of the Romans. The King of Germany (or, more precisely, the Rex Teutonicorum, "King of the Germans") was the monarch of the German lands and territories, elected by the pre-eminent nobles and bishops of the German Kingdom; as a position, it was a remnant of the ancient Teutonic tribal practises. After 962, the King of Germany would by custom request of the Pope to be granted the title of Holy Roman Emperor. The consorts of those men who bore the title King of Germany, or King of the Germans, were thus Queen of Germany, or Queen of the Germans.

The title King of the Romans developed in the 11th and 12th centuries, as a means of referring to the elected ruler of the Empire (Germany, Italy, and (from 1032 on) Burgundy) who had not as yet been confirmed in the imperial dignity by the Pope, and crowned in Rome by him (or, less often, other appropriate Roman authorities). It was used to signify the prestige and universal role of the monarch, whilst accepting that he had not achieved recognition as an Emperor - a title which in reality conferred no additional power, but which was viewed as an ultimate target by many European monarchs. Accordingly, the consort of a "King of the Romans" would be known as the "Queen of the Romans".

As the Imperial coronation involved an arduous and lengthy journey into Italy, leaving German affairs unattended to for months or years, many German kings postponed it for several years, and some were never crowned as Emperors at all. In the interval between election and coronation, they were known as "King of Germany", or – in and after the reign of Emperor Henry IV – "Kings of the Romans", rather than as "Emperors". From 1508 onward, however, the Kings of the Romans took the title "Roman Emperor-elect" or simply "Roman Emperor", without recourse to a coronation by the Pope.

The title "King of Germany", or "King of the Romans", might still be separated from that of "Emperor" when an heir to the Empire was elected as co-King to the reigning Emperor. The heir was then titled "King of Germany" and "King of the Romans". The former title would then cease to belong to the Emperor, instead becoming the position of the heir; the unclear and uneasy balance of power between German Kings and their Emperors were to create problems on more than one occasion. The latter title brought no real power; rather, it gave the heir both a prestige in his own right, and indicated that he was the Emperor's designated successor; it also allowed the King to succeed to the Empire when the reigning Emperor died without a fresh election. The heir's spouse was called "Queen of Germany", or "Queen of the Romans", and although she often became reigning Empress in due course, in some cases she or her husband might die before succeeding to the higher dignity, in which case "Queen of the Romans" would be her only title.

The German Empire, existing between 1871 and 1918, was in theory a partial return to the Holy Roman Empire and Kingdom of Germany, although politically it was very different. The three German Empresses of that Empire can thus also be found here.

Version B[edit]

The titles Queen of Germany and Queen of the Romans referred to the consort of the King of Germany (Rex Teutonicorum) or King of the Romans (Rex Romanorum). The latter title deceloped in the 11th century, to stress the King's position as the Imperator futurus ("Emperor-to-be") even before his Imperial coronation by the Pope.

As the title "King of the Romans" was also used by the heir designate, elected during the lifetime of the his predecesssor, the heir's spouse would be called "Queen of the Romans" as well.

This list also includes the spouses of the three German Emperors that ruled the German Empire between 1871 and 1918.

Links to List of Holy Roman Empresses and German queens[edit]

Okay this original article List of Holy Roman Empresses and German queens was split up to List of Holy Roman Empresses and List of German queens but this redirect only redirect to List of German Queens instead of List of Holy Roman Empresses. Whoever did this needs to fix it again and change all links to List of Holy Roman Empresses and German queens to either List of Holy Roman Empresses or List of German queens. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)