Talk:List of Jews/Archive1

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The idea of this list is disgusting!

Why on earth do we need such an article! What good does listing people by their faith? An article of famous religous figures, ok, i could see the point. But most of these persons have nothing to do with Judaism. Or would you list George Lucas as a famous Christian? Why have the authors of these list this need to list jewish persons? A hidden Judophobia? And then these weird discussions about half- and quarter- Jews, terms I last heard in school when dealing with NAZI racial laws. Please, delete this article, 82.82.52.252 23:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am proud to have contributed to this list. The more people who realise how much our Jewish brothers and sisters are contibuting to our well-being and enjoyment, the better. And anyone whom Hitler and the Nazis would have regarded as Jewish ought to be included.RachelBrown 20:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why is this article so controversial? I don't see any objections on the talk pages of, say, List of Italians or List of Japanese people. Wouldn't those be just as "disgusting"? —Chowbok 16:16, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

The total extent of this list seems a bit unnecessary. The list of Muslims on the other hand seems to be more useful, pertaining to seemingly more important historical characters (caliphs and disciples). I don't see the need to list every single B-list (or even A-list) Jewish celebrity out there. The US has a large and successful Jewish population. Just not entirely sure Wikipedia needs to list every single one member of that population.

Also, one could look at it in an anti-semetic POV - and this argument was already had on the Adbusters article [1]. --EVApilot 23:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I also think this is a silly idea to have lists by religion, since it serves no purpose and is, at best, very controversial. It's one thing to create an article talking about some great figures of specific origin, but this list is silly. Any such list should be deleted as it has no place in an encyclopedia Elfguy 20:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Starting the list

Note to Wikipedia: This is a massive list of Jews I picked up from the top of my head. There are probabley much more, but these are the main influencial Jews that I can remember. You should probabley alphabetize this, and add those spiffy links.

Spelling/s

fixed erratic capitalization; changed Jesus from 'founder of Catholicism'<!> to 'namesake of Christianity'; changed description of Daniel Pearl's death from 'executed' to 'killed' and resisted changing 'killed' to 'murdered' (is there a consensus on this vocabulary? surely it must come up again and again!). Also more or less alphabetized. No doubt this will be a difficult page to maintain. Someone else

Do you feel there's any doubt that Pearl was murdered? "Killed" could imply anything, such as "killed in an auto accident."

No, I don't feel any doubt, but 'killed' is the neutral term. I suspect if I changed it to 'murdered' someone would change it back to executed, which wrongly implies legality. Which is why I asked for a consensus... Someone else Why is Daniel Pearl famous? The act was infamous, but in reality Pearl was perhaps a very good journalist but virtually unheard of prior to his execution. Too, why are the lists being made according to race like this or Blacks etc?.... DW

I hate these lists

Just a quick comment: I hate these lists! What purpose do they serve? I vote for a deletion. Danny

This was my reaction. I was tottering on the edge of voting for deletion, despite the apparent huge amount of work that went into it. It still gives me the screaming willies, but I can see a purpose for it. This page links to every Jew who has a wikipedia article. That implies at least mild fame of some sort. There are also other sources for this information. On the other hand, every wicked thing is justifiable. I would perhaps feel a little better if this article were deleted. --Daelin 07:07, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
I second Danny's vote. This list is pointless and creepy. Delete. Puffy_jacket
I may be new here, but I would also like to voice objection to this list. It serves no useful purpose. If an entry on an individual states he or she is Jewish, that's one thing. But to create a list of Jews I feel is unnecessary at best and possibly discriminatory at worst. --Feitclub 19:03, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
I'm also new to wikipedia, but this list really serves no purpose at all, and agree with Feithclub! bjelleklang 09:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I second -- err, fourth -- Danny's vote. This page could better be served by doing a search on the term "Jewish", or some such. Metahacker
If the information is true, I don't support deleting it. I fail to see what harm can be done by factual information. -Cow 19:32, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The information is necessarily incomplete, and as the talk below shows, often wildly inaccurate. Would you support a list of people who are 5'9"? Such a list would be silly. Metahacker

maybe you want to move this to List of Influential Jews or Famous Jewish people.... The title seems to imply a degree of extensiveness that most people wouldnt want to deal with...-Stevert

I asked here: Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions - I got an answer. My view is that every people list on wikipedia is non-extensive, so it doesn't need to be specified. The other point is that people shouldn't be included purely on the basis of fame, but also on their historical significance, importance to the religion, etc. Martin

hmm... just clarifying... so including ibrahim among the separate lists of Jews, christians, and Muslims is within that scope - is what your saying. Hence the Inclusion of Eashoa as a Jewish figure, though he sorta broke with tradition... -Carifyin' Steve

I can't comment on Abraham, since I don't know a vast amount about him, but that's the general idea. Martin


Robert DeNiro???? I've enjoyed watching Mr. DeNiro play various ethinc/nationalities (Noodles Aaronson, Ace Rothstein), but I have never come across any biographical content stating that he has a Jewish mother. In fact, with regards to his ancestry, the latest debate is whether or not Mr. DeNiro is more Italian or Irish (based on his parental ancestry). -Bourbon_King
This is sick. What on earth is the point of a list like this? Are there Jews who feel so insecure they need to point out that Jewish people can be famous/successful/admirable too? Or racists who want to discredit these people? My respect for wikipedia has just diminished dramatically.
I don't have the honor of being a Jewish person, nor am I a racist, and I find this list entirely appropriate. With regard to racists, have you considered how many of them might happen upon this list and be surprised to discover that some of their favorite athletes, entertainers, etc., happen to be Jewish and they didn't even realize it? It might just do some good! Everytime I come to this talk page, I see more and more people suggesting that this list should be deleted, and I am not really understanding why that is. func(talk) 06:26, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Threat: If this page is deleted, I will start a list of nonJewish persons. Just kidding! Gzuckier 14:28, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, we do have Righteous Among the Nations. :) func(talk) 15:44, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Israeli politicians

Do the Israeli politicians really need to be there? I mean, I suppose it's possible that sometime in the distant future, it won't be obvious that an Israeli politician is Jewish, but I don't imagine anyone in 2003 is in doubt as to the ethnicity or religion of any PM of that country since 1948.

OT: Not all Israeli politicians are Jewish, although most of them obviously are. There are Arab (Christian / Muslim) members of the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) too.--Joeboy 15:22, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Matter fact we have generals in the army that are not Jewish, My personal friend and ex-commander in the army, Brig. Gen. (Ret) Amal Assad was the first Arab appointed General, as a Jew i don't see a problem with the list

Entertainers

Also, should there be a distinction drawn between entertainers famous for being Jewish (it's their shtick, if you will), such as Woody Allen and those who just are, such as Lisa Kudrow?--Calieber 18:22, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Splitting the list into subsections

What do you think about splitting this list into the following subsections: Science, Religion, Sports, Entertainment, Politics

This entry is terrible

What possible question can a reader have that could be answered with a list of all Christians, or all Jews, or all XYZians throughout history? There is no such question. Do we really want to make an entry that will grow to include millions of people, who have absolutely nothing in common at all except for the fact that they profess to be Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, etc.)? There is no reasonable explanation for this entry to exist. Obviously, there are uses for meaningful lists, such as a list of Christian theologians, Christian philosophers, Jewish philosophers, etc. But what we have here is a joke. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a phone book. I vote for deletion. RK

I agree. I contributed to the Losers in literature page because it may be useful as a research tool, and there are people railing against it. For them to not rail against this is hypocritical. -- Goatasaur 18:14 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

Niels Bohr was only half Jewish

Niels Bohr was only half-Jewish (mother). Aage was only 1/4. Jewish? I mean we might as well list Courtney Love

See talk:list of people by belief

There is no such thing as half Jew, you mother is Jewish you're Jewish, or you convert. That is the main stream Chalaha (rule). He may not see himself as Jew but he is. If you mother is not jewish you must convert to be considered a Jewish at main stream judaism. Some of the reform Jews may see it different, but not much.

Make list smaller

Perhaps this list could be made smaller and thus more useful - it's a little bit unhelpful to include Jesus with Disreil with Daniel Pearl. However, I don't think that it's ridiculous to have a list of truly important Jews, since that could be an important resource for someone reaserching, for instance, Jewish History.

-Alex S

I moved this back to List of Jews to be consistent with other lists of people by belief/ethnicity. Martin

I really agree the list needs needs to be cut down. If you call a page "List of Jews", naturally the people listed there should be Jews. The Jewishness of people like Max Baer Jr. and Nick Carter is remote in an ethnic sense and nonexistent in a religious sense. Nobody could reasonably call them Jews. Plus you have people like Orlando Bloom and Bernie Ecclestone who, to my knowledge, have not been confirmed as Jewish by any reputable source. An encyclopedia should contain facts, not unsubstantiated speculation. I have nothing against a list of famous Jewish people, as long as it is accurate.

--Aardvark114 06:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bobby Fischer and Judophobia

How can Bobby Fischer belong to this list if he denies that he is a Jew and is known for his judophobia?

  • He is on the list because he is ethnically Jewish. See www.jewhoo.com for more than you'd like to know about Bobby Fischer.
    • he has repeatedly said himself that he is not a jew. his father was a german and his mother was a non-religious christian american. according to *some* jews, his mother was 1/4 jewish. i guess that makes him a jew!! this is sick. even if his mother was jewish, which according to bobby fischer himself she was not, still that does not make hima jew because in addition to HATING jews and judaism, his father was clearly not a jew.
      • Actually, his biological father was possibly a Hungarian Jew (see http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/4535883.htm ). His mother was almost certainly Jewish. Clearly Bobby Fischer does not identify as Jewish, and is not Jewish in a religious sense. However, he is (at least partly) Jewish in ethnicity, and this may be worthy of note (just as it would be for an Arab-hater born to an Arab mother, or Russian-hater born to a Russian mother).

Yeah, I think that it would be valuable to identify an individual as 'partly Jewish by heritage', and also to note that (does not identify self as Jewish). Gzuckier 16:54, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There's always the 'Nazi test'; if the Nazis would have considered you a Jew, then you are a Jew. (I'm approximately half kidding)Gzuckier 16:54, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1/2 and 1/4 Jews

There are several people on this list that are 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish. Should the amount of their Jewishness (ethnic) be listed like in parenthesis after their description? Should they be removed? What is the consensus. ThereIsNoSteve 23:21, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think putting the "amount of jewishness" in the parenthesis would be a good idea. If we remove them there will always be someone who will argue that they are Jews. Bogdan 19:04, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Whether or not a list of Jews is a good or reasonable idea -- and it certainly seems debatable (and I have contributed a number of names to this list) -- getting into "amount of Jewishness" on the basis of parentage is so similar to the Nazi conception of racial purity (and to the orthodox Jewish conception of Jewishness, which I find "racist" in its own way), that I think we would be getting into dangerous and unsupportable ground by doing so. Seems to me it's enough that a person is Jewish either because they decide they are, regardless of parentage or upbringing, or because they have enough ancestry or family background, whether it's all or some, to believe that their Jewish background affected who they were/are or how society responded to or defined them or how they responded to that response or definition. I think we'd be getting into big trouble if we end up arguing about who was more Jewish, Sammy Davis Jr., Proust, or Wittgenstein. Jeremy J. Shapiro 21:35, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The last time I heard of "half-Jews" and Quarter-Jews was with the Nazi's who demanded from everyone to hold documentarty evidence about parentage and decided suitability fo rcivil service etc on this. Please remove such nonsense!!! Well actually - please remove the list. Refdoc 01:44, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Im shocked. "Half jew", "quarter jew"! What are you thinking? Refdoc ist right, this sounds like Nazi Rassengesetze. Delete this list. 82.82.52.252 22:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Might be useful to the hypothetical information-seeker to find some reference to a) jewish by conversion, b) cases where only one parent is Jewish, and which parent (even if it's the father not the mother) and c) a general catchall for some lesser connection i.e. 'some Jewish ancestry on the mother's side' or some such. Trying to get really fine-grained ('father's mother's mother's father's father was Jewish') doesn't seem too potentially useful. Gzuckier 16:39, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Heros or not

I think describing people as "heroes" is POV. Describing Ariel Sharon as a war hero is certainly POV. I'm going to make more neutral. Secretlondon 11:26, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)

Describing someone as a hero is certainly POV. Describing someone as a "war hero" is much less so, if at all. Sharon, due to his wartime exploits, was viewed as a hero - thus, a war hero, whether or not he actually was a "hero." On the other hand...would we be willing to describe, say, Nazi Generals as war heroes? If not, then I think you're right. john 20:36, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Move

Page moved (back) according to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lists. The user who moved it in the first place didnt even fix all those double redirects! --Jiang 08:17, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Charlie Chaplin was not Jewish

Actually Charlie Chaplin was NOT a jew just empathised with them during anti-semtic era of 30's and 40's. Please do not begin a famous Buddhists/Catholics/Moslems page. What purpose does it honestly serve except perhaps to disseminate false info as in the case of Chaplin.Norwikian 09:28, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, doesn't it serve the purpose of disseminating correct information and dispelling false information, as in the case of Chaplin? Anthony DiPierro 04:03, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)


More Jews to add

There are some more Jews in the List of converts to Judaism article which aren't yet listed here. I don't have time to add them myself now, but if anyone wants to do it in the meantime, feel free. —Psychonaut 13:14, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"He is a Hungarian-born Jew, sole-survivor of his family's extermination at Auchwitz." Delta G 04:47, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sarah Michelle Gellar is Jewish, her father and mother both being Jews. ChessPlayer

...Not necessarily making her a Jew, depending on her beliefs and your definition of Jewish. [[User:metahacker|metahacker]

Disclaimers

The following text was reverted from the article (by Zigger 22:50, 2004 Apr 11 (UTC)) as it is discussion:

The above disclaimer fails to mention that this page also contains people who are neither. see the following paragraph.
It must be noted that some of these people are not jews, as you must convert or have been born to a jewish mother to be jewish. Lenny Kravitz is not a Jew. I don't know which other people here are wrongly so labeled but the system should be to name whether they are jewish by conversion or mother and the source of this information. This is an encyclopedia people, not a place for palaver!


  • What's the purpose of this page? 81.225.8.80 19:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Edits and deletions

I have done a fairly major edit on this page.

  • I have deleted all dates of birth and death and all "(born Robert Zimmerman)" etc, since this information is available in the articles the names link to.
  • I have dewikified virtually everything except the names, except specifically Jewish subjects. Readers do not need dozens of links to "US" or "writer."
  • I have greatly reduced the descriptions - readers can look in the articles.
  • I have standardised all "American" to "US."
  • I have reorganised the categories to break up the biggest ones.
  • I have deleted a lot of POV.
  • I have added some names, but deleted none except for some duplications.

I would suggest, however, deleting the "Biblical figures" altogether. We could obviously, if we wanted, list the entire cast of the Old Testament and much of the New, to no really good purpose since most of them are of dubious, or at least unknowable, historicity. Adam 12:06, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Adding names

Can anybody include include these people in the list ?

Bogdan | Talk 13:39, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)~

Finally done! Many of these names were not listed yet, and now they are on the relevant (Jewish) lists of names. Thank you for your input! IZAK 05:30, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Rules for Appearing on the List

What are the rules? For example, does a person belong on the list if their father was a Jew, but not their mother, and they don't practice the religion or consider themselves as Jews? ChessPlayer 05:57, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It seems so, yes. but this should be noted: eg, William Cohen (Jewish father) Adam 06:27, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

John: Rt Hon Rufus Isaacs was MP for Reading before being elevated to the peerage. Adam 00:19, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose. But then Judah Benjamin and Bill Cohen were US Senators. And Reading was better known as Lord Chief Justice and Viceroy of India than from his time as an MP. It seems better to me to just have politicians from different countries instead of distinguishing "elected" from "non-elected" leaders. john 00:28, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I was drawing a distinction between elected officials and appointed ones, but I agree it is messy distinction. Is it common in the US refer to people like Kissinger and Albright who never held elective office as "politicians?" To my mind a politician is a person who runs for office, not an appointed official. Adam 00:47, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So Lord Rosebery (who never held elective office) was not a politician? I'm not sure about such a distinction. john 00:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Cat Stevens?

Please explain how Stephen Demetre Georgiou is Jewish? RickK 05:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Also, he's British, not American. RickK 05:12, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
  • There is a misunderstanding that his real name was once "Steven Katz" which then became "Cat Stevens" however it definitely is a FALSE myth as you correctly point out. IZAK 07:24, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Traci Lords and Courtney Love

Traci Lords is not Jewish and has no Jewish ancestry. She has claimed to be Jewish, as is the case with Courtney Love, who also has no Jewish ancestry (her mother's stepfather was Jewish but that's as far as it goes with Ms. Love).

  • Actually Lords' father was a Ukranian Jew.

http://www.thefab.net/movies/m13_traci_lords_01.htm

Though reported on a number of websites, this is actually exceptionally unlikely (adult star bios are often full of errors). She makes no mention of it in her recent autobiography, and Ukrainian steelworkers were almost exclusively non-Jewish. She also mentions a paternal grandmother named "Mary", and her mother's refusal to have a church wedding. Juko 00:47, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Lenin

Please cite a reputable source as to Lenin having Jewish ancestry (the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not a reputable source).

The New York Times once had an article about Lenin's partial Jewish ancestry, it's a job for someone to track down. IZAK 07:24, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)


US Politicians

Isn't it a bit redundant to put US after the name of the US politician since it has already been established by the section title US Politicians that they are a political figure in the US, For example where it says:

Gary Ackerman, US Congressman from New York Shouldn't it read: Gary Ackerman, Congressman from New York since again it has already been established that he is a US Politican by article section title. Misterrick 03:10, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Misterrick, you are right, let me correct this...IZAK 02:34, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

"Victims" Section

I strongly disapprove of having a section entitled "victims." I also disapprove of people being moved out of other sections to be put into a section entitled "victims." Ga. john k 06:22, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

That question again....

What's the purpose of this page? 81.225.8.80 19:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It's useful for the racists when it comes time to round up all the Jews (that was sarcasm, folks) jewishlibrarian jewishlibrarian 26 May 2004
C'mon librarian, even for a joke that was exquisitely bad taste. JFW | T@lk 22:31, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but is there anyone here to whom it did not occur when they first saw the page?Gzuckier 16:22, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It occurred to me, along with "what Jew is so insecure about their own cultural identity that they needed to create this page ..
It did not occur to me when I first saw this page. Quite frankly, I don't understand the many criticims this talk page has with regard to the existance of this list. It is important to show lists of notable Jews, African-Americans, African-Europeans, women, asians, etc., because of the extent to which the western world has:
  • ignored them in the past
  • criticised, demonized, and persecuted them in the past
Call it my liberal white guilt if you want to, but being able to point a reporter, a researcher or a school child to a page of notable people of a particular ethnicity that refutes racist suggestions of inferiority seems entirely justified to me. AdmN 04:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
So a list of people who in somebody's opinion have a link to Judaism makes you feel better? The definition of Judaism on this page isn't even defensible. Your liberal white guilt comes across as racism when you assume anybody famous is also white, liberal and Christian.

Oh, I've posted that I think it's a valuable page, but the old sardonic sense of humor (there is a page on Jewish humor, isn't there?) can't let it be without comment. Gzuckier 14:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why is there a list of Jewish criminals?

Why is there a list of Jewish criminals. Is there a list of other ethnic criminals? I think this is unfair.165.247.47.250 (Talk | contribs)

Well, there was a pretty solid Jewish presence in organized crime at one time (the purple gang, et al), which makes that part of the list historically significant, like Italian criminals would be, but Norweigan criminals would presumably not be; maybe it should be retitled? (Apparently there is a resurgence of Jewish criminals among the 'Russian mafia' but that's kind of a different thing and has a different spin on it these days so we can leave it pass....) Personally I'm dubious about 'Jewish spies'. That doesn't have an organizing principle behind it the way historical Jewish organized crime does, (except for Joshua, Caleb, et al) so it's like one step up from 'jews who overcharged me for candy bars when i was a kid'. Gzuckier 16:31, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Alphabetical order

Why are people adding entries to these lists out of order? Surely it cannot be too difficult to slot them in in the right place? --Nevilley 11:20, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have removed Jackie O's entry: (* Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, US First Lady (mother's father was Jewish)) to talk, as I [1] can't find any source that claims it and [2] it seems rather unlikely and [3] I can find a source that contradicts it. Her mother's father was James Thomas Lee, the son of James Lee and Mary Norton, immigrants to America from Cork, Ireland during the Potato Famine. [This site http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/0670891916-excerpt.asp] states that he was born and died a Roman Catholic, and was considered as godfather for Jackie. - Nunh-huh 23:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Errors

Not sure what purpose this list serves. Nevertheless, I've removed Bernie Ecclestone and Rupert Murdoch as it is very unlikely that either of them is (even partly) Jewish. In both cases, claims of their Jewishness appear only on far-right websites. In Murdoch's case, it's presumably derived from his pro-Israeli views and his mother's maiden name (Greene, which sounds like Green). In fact, like her namesake Graham Greene (before he converted), Murdoch's mother is probably an Anglican: she went to an Anglican school and contributes heavily to the Melbourne Anglican Foundation.

  • Removing positively doubtful names is important. By the way, could you please sign your name next time. Thanks. IZAK 05:33, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that connects up with the question re Judaic reliability of African-American Jews; if Murdoch with a fuzzy background claims he is a Jew, does he get listed? Listed with a footnote? Etc. There are lots of folks with Jewish ancestors who are halachically no longer Jewish, but this list is more secular in nature than a reference according to Orthodox principles, seems to me. Gzuckier 14:04, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Murdoch never claims to be Jewish as far as is known and there is no positive way to make his mother Jewish, beyond rumor, so he is off the list. This list does NOT function by "Orthodox" criteria, which actually makes the definition of who is Jewish very simple: 1) A person, male or female, born of a positively known and accepted Jewish mother (i.e. her parents were Jewish, or at least her mother must be known to be Jewish) and 2) Someone (male or female) converted according to Jewish religious law (Halakha). It's the non-Orthodox and secular "definitions", that cloud and confuse the identfication/s of who is or is not Jewish. But so far, most people seem to agree that it depends on parentage and birth (and NOT on religious affiliation), and most definitely NOT on "feelings" by just waking up one morning and "deciding" to be Jewish for the heck of it. IZAK 22:11, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

list of 'african-american jews'

any strong feelings regarding adding a section of 'african-american' (which may also potentially include 'african-british' or some such) jews? Everybody knows about sammy davis jr. and some folks know about lenny kravitz and lisa bonet, but there are many more out there who have organized themselves and are somewhat active in forging an identity. Me, I think it's nontrivial, nonracist, is information most people don't have at hand already, and would be informative, which is the point of wikipedia after all, and is why the 'list of jews' is here, regardless of some folks' not being happy about it. Somewhere, sometime, somebody is going to want to check whether Courtney Hole and/or Yaphet Kotto are Jewish for a term paper or something and we want to be useful to them. Gzuckier 16:20, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • Only one comment: Are you absolutely, positively sure that most of these people are actually Jewish by some sort of religiously accepted criteria, and are not just "self-proclaimed" "Jews"? IZAK 05:37, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Good question. Mostly, no. Of course, then we get into the old 'who is a jew?' divide, with religion vs heredity. Kotto, for example, says his family came from Yemenite Jews via the Cameroons. He apparently practices at least some (pictures of him wearing a yarmulkah). Would he be allowed to marry the daughter of a hassidic rebbe? I don't know. Maybe a disclaimer? Of course, that goes for a lot of the folks on this list in general, not just African-American.Gzuckier 14:00, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

More Errors

Someone added Adolf Hitler to this list. This is a sort of rumor based of unsupported allegations. See http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/hitler-jewish.shtml . Thus, I am removing Hitler --- Ok, someone keeps adding Hitler back. This time it says "mothers father was jewish". Clearly this person doesnt have a clue, I hate to say. There is no evidence whatsoever linking Hitler to any Jewish ancestors and in fact the allegation that his FATHERS father was Jewish was proved false. So I am removing it once again...

Elvis (sighting/citing?)

Someone keeps on re-inserting the name of Elvis Presley as having a "Jewish" grandparent. This is not common knowledge and no-one has ever claimed this (I guess maybe it's maybe just another instance of an "Elvis sighting" this time on the "List of Jews" :-) ) Does anyone know if Elvis had any known and even vaguely verifiable Jewish ancestors? Thank you. IZAK 03:18, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Seems we would have heard it before. Gzuckier 03:39, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Jonathan Goldstein, Max Wallace, Johnathan Goldstein wrote a book about Elvis' Jewish ancestor; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/155022462X/ref=pd_sxp_f/103-4692714-7739860?v=glance&s=books

Orlando Bloom

Orlando Bloom Biological Father is Colin Stone, so why would he be added as "Jewish Father" if we dont know if Colin Stone is Jewish?

fictional character addition

betty boop? well her father was jewish, in a manner of speaking. Gzuckier 14:33, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think Roberto Begnini is not a jew

Please confirm or deny and delete

Another Call for deletion

I think this page is racist, pointless and should be deleted, regardless of how much work went into it.

I wouldn't say it's racist, but it's become a rather weird accumulation of poorly verified and often biased stuff. We also have a list of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people, which could be explained as homophobic. JFW | T@lk 10:58, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

...and there's also List of Christians and List of Muslims. It's not racist; in fact, I struggle to see why anybody could seriously think that. --Khendon 11:29, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I consider the article on Frank Zappa to be antizappaist by its very nature. Why should he be singled out, from the billions of humans who are now living or have previously lived? In recognition of the innate brotherhood of all mankind and womankind, we should delete all Wikipedia articles on individual persons. Gzuckier 17:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that any argument in support of this list has to address the fear that I think is echoed by all the objections: this list looks an awful lot like a list compiled by anti-semites, of the sort who believe that the marking of foods as 'kosher' is an element of some sort of Jewish conspiracy. There is nothing wrong with having a list of famous Jews, per se, but just a list of 'Jews' seems pointless. I, for one, would object to any simple list of people based on some profiled demographic (No-fly list, anyone?) featuring my name. This article should be re-named at the very least, for the sake of sanity.

This article and all related should be deleted. Wikipedia's list disease is mostly harmless. This is an exception - it is clearly not harmless. Do I really need to explain how it differs from List of gays / christians / dog lovers / people who compile pointless lists ? [2] [3] [4] Rd232 10:26, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I would be curious as to why a List of Jews would be objectionable but a List of Gays would not. Gzuckier 19:42, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was somewhat ambivalent about this list to begin with, but after contributing a name or two, have found myself coming up with more [no, already included] and more [nope, she's there too] names to add. I find nothing antisemetic about it, but agree that "Who is a Jew and Why?" is/are questions that pop up again and again. What is emerging is a list of some truely amazing people, a scoundrel or two and legions of "I wonder who this person is." I say the list stays.

What happened?

What's with all the duplicated categories? Gzuckier 22:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I fixed it. Gzuckier 03:10, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The entire page appears to be duplicated now. I'll try to fix it. --Amoore 02:13, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
I believe that almost all of the content in this article was duplicated during the edit by User:165.234.63.207 at 12:23, Jun 10, 2005. I think I got rid of all of the duplicated categories and preserved all of the edits performed since then. --Amoore 02:32, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's a known bug in the wiki software. --Bonalaw 08:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Barry Manilow

If he was born with the name Barry Pincus, I'm guessing not just his mother was Jewish.Gzuckier 18:56, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Holocaust category

I added Rudolf Vrba to the "victims" section but I don't like it because he was more noted for his heroism than for his victimhood. Can I suggest a section called "Holocaust related" (or similar name) for people whose fame is closely associated with the Holocaust? There are a fair number of people on the page who would fit that category well. --Zero 10:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Use of the list

Well, for one thing, all it takes is a glance at it to tell you we need more biographies of Jewish military figures, and to a lesser extent Jewish sports figures. Gzuckier 20:06, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is this not what "Categories" are for?

Perhaps we should remove this and turn this all into categories.Nick Catalano 08:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Categories don't capture people for whom there is no Wikipedia article. Jayjg (talk) 15:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This list really is a mess. On any other list of people by belief, the following rules apply: (1) the person should be known to be of that belief, and (2) it should have some relevance to what they are known for. So what I'm saying is that the same rule should apply here. Either that, or rename this article "List of people with Jewish grandparents". Though my preference is strongly for the former. Bonalaw 13:09, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jews are a people, not members of a faith group; typical classifications do not readily apply. Jayjg (talk) 15:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would like to point out that, although nonJews may not be familiar with this, Jews frequently note/discuss whether a particular figure is 'Jewish' in the sense of this page; religious, by heredity, converted to, converted from, had a great-grandfather, etc. etc. This is not restricted to Jews, of course, nonJews are freely invited to participate in these discussions. It's neither antiSemitic nor a part of the cabal's plans for world conquest, it's just kind of a hobby, not all that different in spirit from genealogy. I would guess most nationalities/minorities have similar pastimes. So, for those who are nonJewish and fear this page is antiSemitic in intent or possibility, please be reassured. Otherwise, I'd have to say it serves the rather innocuous needs of Jewish people who indulge in this sort of speculation to while away the time, and as such should not be eliminated or restricted to more rigid standards of Judaic identity. Gzuckier 20:48, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am reminded of being in an argument about the occupation of the West Bank in which the defender of the occupation accused those opposed to it of being anti-Semites - although 2 of the 4 with that stance were Jewish. It is a strange thing, to be sure, but I enjoy the list, so that is reason enough for me as to why it should exist. Carptrash 00:46, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
An ironic discussion. Many categories, such as Jewish American musicians and Jewish American scientists, have recently been deleted because someone thought lists were better. I prefer categories, though I take the point that they cannot include people with no articles (so why not create a stub?) On Carptrash's point, if an anti-Semite is one who hates Jews, why shouldn't a Jew be one? He/she may well hate other Jews for being Jewish and repudiate his/her Jewish identity.RachelBrown 20:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reverting 'move' to category

This list definitely serves a purpose, as do the lists of other groups, and should not be deleted, especially without any sort of agreement. If you want to make a category for Jewish individuals duplicating the info on this page that's another thing, but it's not something that's really been done with other groups, probably to avoid 'pigeonholing'. But certainly something in the article namespace should not be 'moved' to the category namespace as at Category:Jewish--Pharos 21:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jewish? & Article Needs

Were her Jewish? and we need their article(all photographer).;

--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 11:57, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See aso List of photographers. --Sheynhertz-Unbayg 06:03, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Haven't had a chance to look at the others yet, but Lee Miller wasn't Jewish. This can be inferred from example from [5], which notes that "It should be pointed out that Dave Scherman was Jewish, while Miller had a deep affinity for Jewish culture." -Juko

Category:Jews

I've been removing the handful of individuals listed in this category amid entries like Bukharan Jews, because it seems they have been added haphazardly and are only a tiny fraction of those on List of Jews, and the national lists, which seem like the places for this sort of info. It seems to me like the categories are not really being fully used, and that the real comprehensive work is being done on the lists.

This list is incomplete ... for now

Does anyone else find it terribly ironic that this has a "This list is incomplete" tag on it?

Do you ever expect the "List of Jews" to be COMPLETE??

--The Milkman 01:50, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

Of course not. But I have a different problem: is anyone actually verifying all those claims? It's easy for David ben-Gurion, but some people may not actually be Jewish at all according to any definition. Hell, what purpose does such a list serve anyway? JFW | T@lk 02:13, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sacha Baron Cohen

Does he need to be listed in 2 categories? I've removed him once from comedians but he has resurfaced there. If only one category, which one should he be in?

List him in the category he is primarily known for, and just keep deleting him from the other. People don't read through the whole list, so they might not see him further on. Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Various

(a) What happened to poor old Wittgenstein? I thought he had got exiled from the main page to here. (b) This page lists too many actors who will in all likelihood be forgotten, and too few scientists (but then, I'm biased) (c) I feel iffy about this kind of list, for what it is worth. Hasdrubal 23:34, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jewish? In the List? -List

Was him(her) Jewish ? or in the List? --

A

Raimund Abraham bios indicate he was in Austria during WWII, which would be highly unusual fora Jewish guy
Victor Ambrus Again, looks like he spent WWII in Hungary unmolested, which would seem to indicate not Jewish
Arnold Adoff Jewish. (http://www.arnoldadoff.com/)
Georges Altman
altman altmann people
John Julius Angerstein Not Jewish. German gentile (www.lloydsamerica.com/help/atoz.shtml and a few others seem to say the same thing)
Erich Auerbach Jewish
David Ausubel

B

Jean Babilée (born Gutman, Guttmann)
Bill S. Ballinger
Albert Ballin - Jewish
Henri Barda Nope (http://www.arbiterrecords.com/notes/116notes.html)
Berg
Bergers
Bergmann, Bergmans
Bermans
Baers
Gotthelf Bergsträsser
Bernsteins
Blumenfeld, Bloomfield
Blumenthal (de)
Hermann Blumenthal (de)
Oskar Blumenthal (de)
Walter Behrmann (de)
Arthur Benjamin
Asher Benjamin Almost certainly not. Designed too many churches to be Jewish.
René Benjamin Almost certainy not.
Lyman Frank Baum Absolutely not Jewish. German gentile and a bunch of other stuff.
Patricia Beer (1924-) Not Jewish. Her Wiki entry says "Plymouth Brethren" (that's a religion)
Noel Behn Probably not. "Noel" isn't usually Jewish
Albert Bein I think sooo... not sure.
Kazimierz Bein Not likely.
Alfred Beit Jewish. http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/sa/sajbd/comunity.htm
Abraham Benrubi 1/4 Jewish. Jewish paternal grandfather
Adolph Bolm
Arik Brauer Wiki entry says "Yes".
Zeek Barnaulsky
Robert Baxter The Mormon pioneer?
Arnold Beichman Jewish. (http://www.hooverdigest.org/033/brooks.html)
Phil Berkman Probably.
Wacław Berent Pretty clearly just Polish, not Jewish.
Werner Bergengruen Left untouched in Germany during WWII, according to his Wiki entry, i.e. "not Jewish".
Thomas Louis Berger|Thomas Berger (1924-) Based on bio details, probably not.
Olga Berggolts(* * *) (1910-1975)
Carl Bergmann German gentile
see also Bergman, Bergmanns
Liliane Bettencourt
Herbert Biberman -Jewish
Otto Julius Bierbaum|de (1865-1910)
Beerbohm brothers: Max, Herbert
Owen Bieber
Johann Friedrich Blumenbach
Maxwell Bodenheim Catholic. Half Jewish wife. (http://catholicworker.org/dorothyday/daytext.cfm?TextID=663&SearchTerm=CORE)
Paul Bowles(1910-)Not Jewish. Married a Jewish woman, though (http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/bowles/carr.htm)
Ferdinand Braudel Captured by German forces and held as "Prisoner of War" in 1941 or so. If he was Jewish I'm sure something a lot worse would have happened to him.
Browns
Willy Burmester Pretty clear he was a German gentile.

CD

Horatio Caro
Mark Cerny
Jule Gregory Charney
Guido Castelnuovo Jewish. Wiki entry says so, tooo.
Leo Castelli
Ignaz Franz Castelli
Ferdinand David (1810-1873)
Hermine David|fr (1886 - 1970)
David Dellinger Not J. American gentile.
Ariel Dorfman (1942-) Jewish
Arnold Dreyblatt

E

John Ehrlichman Just a particularly villainous Christian Scientist. Not Jewish at all.
Hans Eichel Not Jewish. Born in 1941 Germany (not in a concentration camp, that is)
Fritz Von Erich (japanese article says Jewish parents) Japanese article is lying. Some kind of Christian (Methodist) gentile by background, and member of some sort of born-again Christianity later in life [6]
Moses Jacob Ezekiel yup. Jewish. [7]
André Eglevsky* I really don't think so. Bio details pretty inconsistant with being Jewish, seems like ethnic Russian
Sheila Egoff I would say "no", but I'm not crossing her out yet.
Christian Gottfried Ehrenberg "Christian" Gottfried? Aside from the name, I'm certain he wasn't Jewish.
Christian David Ginsburg was Jewish by birth. - Newport 20:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point, but aside from the name, the bio details pretty clearly signify a non-Jewish background. Vulturell 21:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

F

Markus Feldmann Based on this [8] I would say "no"
George Finkel (1909-1975)
Arthur Friedheim Jewish, based on [9]]
Katharina Fröhlich (1800-1879) Not very likely.
Dmitri Furmanov Just Russian, not Jewish.
Ignaz Friedman Jewish. Wiki lists him under Jewish classical musicians.
Hermann Friedmann
Michael Fried (Art Critic)*
Gustav Freytag Not Jewish. Just German.
Dorothy Fuldheim *
Jill Furmanovsky

G

Grigori Galitsin(Grigorii Galitsin, Grigoriy Galitsin, Hryhoryy Halytsyn)(ja), photographer
James Garner Southern gentile
Roman Ghirshman
Franz Karl Ginzkey
Samuel Abraham Goudsmit
Antoni GrabowskiThere is nothing to indicate he was Jewish. And the name is almost generically Polish.
Arturo Graf (1848-1913)
Oskar Maria Graf (1894-1967)
Hans Grosz|de(1847-1915)
Richard Golding (1785-1865)
Boris Goldovsky
Eugen Goldschmidt
Hans Goldschmidt
Jerry Goldsmith Jewish. It's on his Wiki entry, too.
Eugen Goldstein
Andrew C. Greenberg
Andrew Greenberg
Mark Green
Mark J. Green
Green (disambiguation)
Frank Gruber

H

Glyn Harman
Arthur Haas, or Arthur Erich Haas
see also Haas
Otto Herbert Hajek (1927-), sculptor
Peter Handke Not Jewish at all. Born in Austria in 1942 (ahem) and reared in Catholic schools.
Otto Harrassowitz
Geoffrey Hartman Jewish, according to Wiki entry.
Rudolf Haym
Fritz Heichelheim/Fritz Moritz Heichelheim (1901-1968)
Michael Heidelberger (1888-1991) Jewish.
Mark Herman(ja:マーク・ハーマン)
Judith Lewis Herman**|ja
Eduard Hermann (1869-1950)
Hans Hermann (1924-1983)
Harry Hershfield Jewish.
Marshall Herskovitz Jewish (home.kc.rr.com/bobfahey/lb-30s/articles/article17.htm)
Fritz von Herzmanovsky-Orlando(de)
Wilhelm Herzog|de Pretty sure he was in Germany during WWII unmolested, i.e. not Jewish
also Herzog (family name)
Beatrice Hinkle*
August Hirsch|de (1817-1894)
Emanuel Hirsch|de (1886-1972)
Kurt Hirsch
Magnus Hirschfeld (1868-1935)
Rolf Hochhuth
Philip Seymour Hoffman Irish Catholic actually. Even his own family doesn't know why their surname is "Hoffman"
Mieczyslaw Horszowski
Marc Held
Jackie Diamond Hyman
Al Held
John Held Jr.

I, J

Ludvig Levin Jakobson (1783-1843)
Karl Guthe Jansky
Joachim Jeremias (1900-1979), Christian
Karl Wilhelm Jerusalem (1747-1772)
Wilhelm Jerusalem (1854-1923) Jewish
Leila Josefowicz

K

Gustave Kahn
Daniel Kahnweiler(Daniel Henry Kahnweiler) 1884-1979
Gaetano Kanizsa
Rosalind Krauss*
Kantorowicz
Friedrich Wilhelm König
Alex Kotzky
Kann
Hans Kann
Julius Katchen
Gina Kaus
Ancel Keys
Arnold Kegel
Joseph Warren Keifer
Robert O. Keohane * (ja)
Barney Kessel
Donald William Kerst(Donald W. Kerst, Donald Kerst) 1911-
Cédric Klapisch(fr)
Philip J. Klass
Otis Adelbert Kline
Stephen D. Krasner
Bernard Kops
Alexandre Koyré
Theodor Kullak
Vladimir Kush
Ellen Kushner
Yves Klein
Arthur L. Kopit*
Raymond Kopa*

L

John Landen
Landsbergs
Emmanuel Löwy
Maurice Lévy (1838-1910), French mathematician
Mischa Levitzki, pianist
Aleksandr Levitov (Alexander Levitov)
Max Liebermann Jewish, according to Wiki entry.
Carl Liebermann, Karl Liebermann (1842-1914)*
Francis Lieber
Marian Lewicki
Helen Levitt
Janice Loeb
André Levinson Jewish
Dorothea Lange
Oskar Lange
Emil Lask 1875-1915
Lily Laskine 1893-
Berthold Laufer
Jan Lechon
Emmanuel Lehman & Mayer Lehman, founder of Lehman Brothers.
Rudolph John Frederick Lehmann & Rosamond Nina Lehmann
Harvey Leibenstein(de)
Carlo Levi Definitely Jewish. Plenty of detail on this in his Wiki entry.
Bernard Levin Jewish. Check Wiki entry.
Ira Levin Jewish. Wiki entry has him under Jewish Americans.
Jack Levine
Joseph E. Levine
Sherrie Levine
Michael Z. Lewin
Uriah Phillips Levy Jewish. Wiki entry says he was the first Jewish admiral in something.
David Levy(disambiguation page)
Lewandowski
Hervé Lewandowski(*)
Rosina Lhévinne
Rolf Liebermann|de
Otto Liebmann|de (1840-1912)
Robert Liefmann|de (1874-1941)
Heinz Liepmann|de
Sébastien Lifshitz
Ephraim Lipson (1888-1960)
Lows
Loew, Loewes
Loebs
Seth Low
David Lubin
Low, Lowe
Juliette Gordon Low (1860-) * Most assuredly not Jewish. Her husband, surname "Low", was an English nobleman, btw
Lemon (disambiguation)s

M

magids
Mark Magidson
Herb Magidson
Mahlers
David Mahler
Kurt Mahler
Siegfried Marck
Carl Mayer
Gabriel Marcel Not Jewish at all. See Wiki entry.
Hans Mayer
Joseph Marx The Catholic Jesuit priest? Not Jewish. See Wiki entry.
Rupert Mayer
Wilhelm Marx Not Jewish. German Catholic and very important politician, left untouched during WWII (see Wiki)
Dan Maskell
Leonard Merrick
Meiers
Ruby Maté
Harold Masur, Harold Q. Masur
May (disambiguation)s
Joe May(de), Mia May(de)
Mirisches
Heinrich Meibom
Meissl, Chemiker
Ronald Melzack
Heinrich Mendelssohn
Carl Menger Not Jewish. Austrian gentile. Minor nobility, etc.
Peter Mennin Not J. Born "Mennini", Italian American
Menningers
Karl Menninger
Wolfgang Metzger Very not Jewish. Check Wiki entry, he was left untouched during WWII
Millers
Alice Miller
Arnold Mindell
Arthur Maling
Barry Malzberg (Barry N. Malzberg, Barry Nathaniel Malzberg)
David Malouf Jewish. Wiki says Lebanese Christian father, Sephardic Jewish mother.
Albert Maltz
Louis Malle Not Jewish at all. Catholic/ethnic French. Based on Au Revoir Les Enfants on his experiences (i.e. as the non-Jewish boy) during WWII
Benoit Malon(Benoît Malon)
Moses Malone Not J. Ummm... you may wanna check his Wiki entry for a picture.
Abraham Moles
George Mosse Jewish
Hermann Mostar
Moritz Moszkowski -ancestry? (<Mosheh?)
Marcel Moyse
Moyzes
H. Warner Munn (Harold Warner Munn)

N

Henry Nau, Henry Richard Nau (ja)
Arthur Nussbaum Jewish

O, Oe

Paul Oestreich
Mark Oliphant

P R

Philip Pearlstein
Peppers
Barry Pepper Irish Canadian. Not Jewish
Jonel Perlea(Ionel Perlea)
Georges Politzer
Adam Politzer, or Politzer Ádám Jewish
Carl Pomerance
William Prager
Spiro
Otto Spies
Friedrich von Spiegel
Robert W. Shufeldt

R

Rachel Félix (Rachel (actress)) Most assuredly Jewish. It's even in her Wiki entry
László Radványi, husband of Anna Seghers
David William Rabe(David Rabe) Not Jewish at all. Catholic. The website Jewhoo specifically said he wasn't Jewish, but his wife (Clayburgh) is
J. Arthur Rank Not Jewish at all. Devout Methodist according to his Wiki.
Jeanette Rankin If the first female member of Congress was Jewish, you'd probably already know about it. Mid-Western rancher's daughter. Rank and Rankin are usually British-origin surnames
Raskin
Ad Reinhardt, Adolf Reinhardt (Adolf Frederick Reinhardt)
Reichs
Charles A. Reich
Karl Reichert, chemist
Evgenii Rein(1935-) -Jewish
George A. Reisner (George Andrew Reisner)
Adrienne Richman
Mark Robson) Not Jewish. English Canadian.
Artur Rodziński
Johann Karl Friedrich Rosenkranz
Theodore Roszaks
Roth
Andrew Roth
Ross
David Rumelhart (ja)
Julius Rodenberg Jewish
Hans Rothfels Jewish
Roths
Robert Riskin


S

Howard Sackler
Aaron Siskind
Frederick Sommer
Phyllis Schlafly (1924-) Completely Not Jewish. Not her real name, either ("Stewart" is). According to Wiki entry, born Catholic-became Methodist
Eva Shain *
Melanie Safka
Mikael Salomon (Where is his homeland?)
Alias episodes - Randy Quaid (No, but Dennis Quaid is...) j/k - Abyss - Band of Brothers - Good Will Hunting
Ernest Samuels (1903-)
Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak (married with Talbot Spivak) converted?
Harry Saltzman
Siegfried Sassoon -Jewish faher
Schnitzler (disambiguation) each people
Michael Schenker
Mark Schorer
Marc R. Schorer
Schulers
Albert & Hendrik Albert Schultens ([10])
Andy Schürr
Emil Schürer (protestant theologian)
Jacob Gould Schurman
See also: Schurman
Simon Sechter
Bob Seger Not Jewish [11]
Maurice Sendak Yup. Jewish. [12]
Clifford D. Simak Catholic [13]
Paul Smolensky
Adolph Stahr (1805-1706), husand of Fanny Lewald
Ralph Steiner(ja) (1899-1986)
Arthur H. Steinhaus, Arthur Steinhaus (1897-1970)
Stein people
Francis Joseph Steingass(Francis J. Steingass, Francis Steingass)
Georg Steindorff
Carl August von Steinheil/Karl August von Steinheil
Gustav Steinmann
Eduard von Steinle
Moritz Stern
Carl Sternheim (de | ja)
Richard Stoltzman
Hans Swarowsky
Emil Strauss (de)
Otto Strauss
Adolf Stern
Kurt Sternberg
Theodor Sternberg
Dolf Sternberger (de)
Joseph Stefan
founder of Salomon Brothers - who is them?
Joel Shapiro
Rod Steiger Not Jewish at all. Lutheran [14]
Marjorie Weinman Sharmat (Marjorie Sharmat, Marjorie W. Sharmat)
Eugen Schüfftan
Peter Spier
Steins
Shermans
David B. Steinman
Spaniers
Schechters
Henry Amira Shafer
Schnabels

T

Helen Broke Taussig (1898-) *
Teichmann people
Eric Teichman
Sonia Terk, Sonia Terk Delaunay (1885, Gradizhsk -) *
James Tobin
Jakow Trachtenberg
see also Trachtenbergs
Jost Trier (1894-1970), German linguist
Endel Tulving
Karl Ullmann Not J. Born "Karl Christian Ullman", big Christian theology person
Unger people

V, W

Karl August Varnhagen von Ense
Sidney Verba(ja)
Ramón Vinay
Galina Vishnevskaya(ja)


Adalbert Wahl (1871-1957)
Jean Wahl (1888-1974) Jewish. Says in his Wiki that Vichy interned him as a Jew
Mark Wahlberg He ain't Jewish. Swedish/German father, Irish mother
Richard Wahle (1857-1935)
Waldorf-Astoria and each families
August von Wassermann
Wexler, Wechsler people
Haskell Wexler
Weil, Weills
Karl Weigand/|Carl Weigand (1804-1878)
Wilhelm Weigand|de (1862-1949)
Carl Weigert/Karl Weigert (1845-1904)
Eric Weil*
Hermann Weyl Not Jewish. Wiki entry says wife was Jewish, he wasn't.
Henri Weil - Jewish
Józef Weyssenhoff
Kurt Weitzmann
Georg Wertheim
David Westheimer
Franz Weidenreich
Bob Weinstock
Todd Weinstock
Arnold Weinstock
Oskar Werner
Weisses
Michael Weiss
Michael Weiss (figure skater)


Winklers
Michael Winner Jewish. Wiki entry confirms.
Friedrich Wieser Mr. Von Wieser (full name) was most certainly an Austrian gentile based on bio details.
Wiseman
Nicholas Cardinal Wiseman - Jewish origin? British cardinals described as "Anglo-Irish" in their Wiki entries and born in 1802 are usually most assuredly not Jewish.
Karl August Wittfogel Not J. Captured by Nazis for being a Communist, not for being Jewish. His wife was Jewish.
Lightner Witmer
Friedrich Wolf Jewish. Wiki entry says "yes".
Rudy Wurlitzer
Felix Woyrsch
Jon Woronoff (cf.Lesley Ann Warren, born Woronoff, Rob W., Israel W. also)

Y, Z

August Yakobson (1904-1963)
Igor Youskevitch, ukranian dancer
Paul Zechde:Paul Zech (1881-1946)
Philip D. Zelikow Pretty sure he is, yes.
Hans Zinsser No, based on this (http://www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/eid/vol11no03/04-1001.htm) Sounds like upper-class Protestant German
Charlotte Zolotow Yes, Jewish (http://charlottezolotow.com/charlotte's_bio.htm)

Others

  • kann people
  • Guttmann people
Barbara Goodman - John Gundelfinger - Abe Gurvin
Anton Koschany
Arthur Lubow
Henri Frei
Herbert Frölich*
Karl Germanovich Zaleman/Karl Zaleman
Karl Joel/Carl Joel/Karl Amson Joel/Carl Amson Joel* (de:Karl Amson Joel)
Markowitz people
Beno Gutenberg * (de:Beno Gutenberg)
Wiener people*
Adalbert Wahl
Rudolph Loewenstein (de:Rudolph Loewenstein)
Albert Ehrenstein * (de:Albert Ehrenstein)
Ernst Ehrenbaum *
Felix Ehrenhaft *
Christian Ehrenfels *
Richard Ehrenberg *
Viktor Ehrenberg (Victor Ehrenberg) * (de:Victor Ehrenberg)
Nathaniel Wallich (de:Nathaniel Wallich)
Arthur Kutscher *
Georg Wiegner *
Jakob Ullmann/Jacob Ullmann
Friedrich Goldmann (de:Friedrich Goldmann)
Krzysztof Meyer
Maier, Mayer, Meier, Meyer people
Erich Kaufmann (de:Erich Kaufmann)
Ernst Hermann Meyer
Alfred Richard Meyer, Alfred Meyer
Eduard Meyer
Rudolf Hermann Meyer, Rudolf Meyer
Adolf Meyer people

Hayward Alker(Hayward R. Alker, Jr.) (ja:ヘイワード・アルカー) Alexander Wendt J. Ann Tickner(ja:アン・ティクナー) Janice Stein Brian C. Schmidt(ja:ブライアン・シュミット) Susan K. Sell(ja:スーザン・セル) Randall L. Schweller(ja:ランドール・シュウェラー) Frederick Lewis Schuman(Frederick L. Schuman, Frederick Schuman) (ja:フレデリック・シューマン) James N. Rosenau Richard N. Rosecrance, Richard Rosecrance (ja:リチャード・ローズクランス) Thomas Risse (ja:トーマス・リッセ) Henry Richard Nau (Henry R. Nau, Henry Nau) (ja:ヘンリー・ナウ) Iver Neumann* George Modelski (ja:ジョージ・モデルスキー) James H. Mittelman (ja:ジェームズ・ミッテルマン) Helen Milner (ja:ヘレン・ミルナー) John Mearsheimer * Richard Ned Lebow (Richard N. Lebow, Richard Lebow) (ja:リチャード・N・ルボウ) Friedrich Kratochwil (ja:フリードリッヒ・クラトチウィル) Audie Klotz (ja:オーディー・クロツ) Mary Kaldor (ja:メアリー・カルドー) (relations with Nicholas Kaldor?) Fred Halliday (ja:フレッド・ハリディ) Ernst B. Haas (ja:エルンスト・ハース)*, father of Peter M. Haas (not Ernst Haas, photographer) Robert Gilpin (ja:ロバート・ギルピン) A. Claire Cutler (ja:クレア・カトラー) Barry Buzan* Thomas J. Biersteker (ja:トーマス・ビアステーカー) Charles R. Beitz, Charles Beitz (ja:チャールズ・ベイツ)

Vernadsky
Uvarov
Russ Westover*
Westheimer people*
Gore Verbinski Polish American gentile, as far as I can tell.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Richard Kirshenbaum, Mira Kirshenbaum
Kirshenbaum Bond & Partners, founded by Richard
Werner Abrahamson, Werner Hans Frederik Abrahamson
Paul Emile Appell
Paul Apel
Wilhelm Klein Jewish. Wiki entry seems to suggest so (i.e. "Jewish theology").
Robert Simson*
Siegfried Marck*
Georg Bähr*
Edelman. Edelmann people*
Cohn peole
David (disambiguation) peole
kazimierz Tetmajer
Klein people
Kraus, Krauss
Lehman, lehmann peole
Neumann
David Selznick Jewish. See his entry.
Jerry Sohl
Otto Soglow
Henry Slesar
Alexander Smallens Jewish. In his entry, too.
Samuel Slater Most assuredly not Jewish.
John Sladek
Oscar Slater
Lee Simonson
Schick people
Jacob Schick
Ary Scheffer
Joseph Lawrence Sax
Philippe Stern
Harold P. Stern
André Spire
Maurice Natanson
Josef Smrkovský
Louis Sokoloff
ja:ヨーロッパ数学会賞 people
Philip Farkas*
Moses Hadas
Mark Hanna Not Jewish. Republican gentile.
Sheila Egoff
Leonard Hand
Owen Bieber
Abraham Abraham & Joseph Wechsler, founder of Abraham & Straus
Simon people
Rosenfeld people
Stahl people
Simkhovich
Dows
Baers
Arnold Lionel Haskell
Hyndman
Franz Babinger
Gottfried Haberler
Jean Charles Pabst
Thomas Luckmann (1927-)
Aleksandr Lenskii (1847-1908)
Michel Lévy Provençal
Evariste Lévy-Provençal
Robert Ryman
H. Marcus, Al Neiman, founder of Neiman-Marcus
Osker P. Trautmann
Reinhold
John Cresson Trautwine
Horace Traubel
Traube
Mary Antin* Jewish, of course. It's in her entry, too.
Charles P. Helin
Jerzy Pniewski (1913 - 1989)
Mayer André Marcel Schwob
Emanuel Ungaro
Leo Huberman
Brad Fiedel
Julian Gumperz
Lewis people
Oscar Lewis (born Lefkowitz)
Louis people
Paul Levi Jewish. Wiki entry correctly mentions this.
Artur London London was Jewish.
Walter Matthau* Jewish, of course. It's in his entry, too.
Masur
Howard Nemerov Jewish. Was listed on Jewhoo.
Bruce Nauman*
H. Marcus, Al Neiman, founders of Neiman-Marcus
Arthur B. Krock
Gary Kurtz
harvey Kurtzman
Henry Kuttner
Karla Kuskin
Kuhn people
Adalbert Kuhn
Walt Kuhn
Ernst Schnabel
Otto Ammon
Alfred Amonn
Baers*
Hermann Bahr*
Fernand Baldensperger*
Misha Black
Marc Blitzstein Jewish. Wiki entry says yes.
Natalie Curis Burlin
Keith Laumer
Nathan (disambiguation) people
Maud Nathan, 1862
Isaac Nathan, 1790- (not court Jew)
Robert Nathan
Karl Bitter
Billy Bitzer
Lawrence Blochman (Lawrence G. Blochman)
blocks
Ursula Bloom*
W. Michael Blumenthal*
Bochner people - Hart and Lloyd Bochner (son and father), Jewish. So was Solomon Bochner (check Wiki entries for them)
Eando Binder - Earl & Otto
Rudolf Bing Jewish. Wiki entry says he died at a Jewish old age home.
John Boorman Not Jewish at all. I've read his book bio, he's something like (non-Jewish) Dutch/Irish/British by ethnicity.
Daniel J. Boorstin (Daniel Boorstin) Jewish. It's in his entry, too.
Mel Bochner
Caryl Brahms
Brewers
Gil Brewer
Ruby Braff
Tom Brokaw Not Jewish at all. "Brokaw" isn't even a Jewish name, though it may sound like one.
Antonia Brico
George Baxt
Castelli people
Erich Charell
John Ehrlichman Already striked him out up above. Not Jewish at all.
Jean Epstein
Ehrlichs
Eichhorn
eisler, eyslers
Gerhart Eisler, Hans Berger
Rudolf Eisler
Edmund Eysler
Günter Eich
eisners
Lotte Eisner, Lotte H. Eisner
Ferdinand Gotthold Max Eisenstein (1823)
Derek Ezra
Grauman Graumanns
Ray Harryhausen Not Jewish at all. Some kind of Germanic gentile.
Eugene Gendlin
Nicolas Gombert Not Jewish.
Otto Kahler
vasily Kamensky
Józef Kremer
Joseph Wood Krutch
Karl Liebermann (Carl Liebermann)
Richard Lippold
Newhouses
Sachs people
Marilyn Sachs
George Afred Isaacs (1883-)
Aleksandr Ilich Ziloti(Alexander Siloti)
György Spiró, Hungarian writer
Eugen Spiro (Eugene Spiro), German painter.
Karl Spiro, German physicist.
Elizabeth Swados (Elizabeth A. Swados)
Donna Summer* Non-Jewish African-American.
Jacqueline Susann Jewish. Very well-known to be Jewish. It's in her Wiki entry too.
Seitzes
Seidel
Woldemar von Seidlitz
Anton Seidl
William Seifriz
Richard Tauber Part Jewish. Father was half Jewish, but was Catholic and wanted Tauber to be a priest. [18]
Tanners None of these Tanners are Jewish as far as I can tell. In fact, Tanner is not really a Jewish last name.
Tappans None of these Tappans are Jewish either (mostly English Americans). Also not a Jewish name.
  • Dennis Waterman, Minders actor Probably not Jewish. It would've been somewhere by now
  • Sharon Osbourne, TV personailty Jewish. Father is Jewish, mother Irish Catholic. Grew up with a Jewish cultural background. The mention of her background is in her entry.
  • Martin Clunes, actor
  • Caroline Quentin, actor
  • John Suchet, newsreader, brother of actor David Suchet Both Suchet's had a Jewish father and were raised Christian, so part Jewish.

Barbara Goodman - John Gundelfinger - Abe Gurvin Anton Koschany Arthur Lubow


Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts

Lawrence Grossberg Rick Altman Steve Kmetko Rosie Schuster Peter Kosminsky

--by Sheynhertz-Unbayg 09:47, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See also

Answers

  • Ida Kamińska was 100% Jewish. Halibutt 01:13, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

article needs

Please in the List!
Ossip Gabrilowitsch Jewish
Martin Ehrlichman
Joel Shapiro
Hippolyte Bernheim (1837-1919)
see also Bernheims

see also: Wikipedia:German-English translation requests/biographies, Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts#Judaism


--Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 18:51, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

See also, and Please expand!

Rod Carew is not Jewish

Look up in legitimate articles on the subject (or in jewhoo.com), it is a big urban legend that he converted, that's why I took him out. Even Adam Sandler has admitted in interviews that his research was errant in stating this in one of his famous Chanukah songs. However, his wife is Jewish and they do more or less raise their children Jewish. But he never formally converted nor does he practice Judaism to any noteworthy degree outside of perhaps joining in with family on say Passover or Chanukah celebrations. Hairymon <

Zoidberg?

I fail to see how Dr. Zoidberg counts as being Jewish. In fact, he was kicked out of a robot Bar Mitzvah due to his species not being kosher.

jews aren't kosher. try to buy one at a kosher butcher store.Gzuckier 18:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He only has a Jewish accent and a last name with a typically Jewish suffix.

he's a doctor with an uncle in showbiz. what more proof do you need.Gzuckier 18:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Who keeps putting Halle Berry up?

I think she's a very talented (and as I keep seeing next to the entry, sexy) actress; but I have never seen any biography, article, etc. that says either parent is Jewish. I have taken her down (as someone else did before). I challenge whoever keeps putting her up to show the evidence.

And this has nothing to do with her having one African-American parent either; there are quite a few famous people who have a white Jewish parent and a black parent, for example, Lisa Bonet, Lenny Kravitz, Sophie Okenedo, etc. so I am not basing it on that at all. Hairymon <

Why are 90%+ American?

Why are there so few, for example, Israelis on this list? Why do we have to go see a page of "Israeli politicians (most of whom are Jewish)" on a separate page, rather than see the list of Israeli politicans on this page too? It seems that all Israeli Jews are separated from this list onto separate pages. Why? This is supposed to be a list of Jews - not Jews living outside of Israel only. Moncrief 18:04, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Good question. But:
  • there are lots of Jews in America
  • it's probably easier to become famous if you're American than say Ukrainian
  • I am sure as an English gal that there's a US bias here
  • There's a separate List of British Jews with loads of entries that aren't on here RachelBrown 21:24, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't answer the question of why there are next to none Israeli Jews on this list, nor does it answer the question of why all of the Israeli Jews are stuck on other lists. Look, this article is called "List of Jews." Either put all of the Jews on this list as well as keep them on their national lists, or rename the title of the article. Moncrief 06:42, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Much sympathy with this. However, the list is already long, and to put everyone on here would be an immense duplication of other lists. What is needed is a careful re-structure, to turn this into a list of cross-references. As an example, already there is no list of scientists or philosophers, just a cross-reference. We also need to ensure that everyone is on all the right lists, so e.g. all British politicians are on the general list of politicians. RachelBrown 09:29, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Why I moved Neve Campbell to "Distant/Partial Jewish Heritage"

I challenge the person who put her in here to post the weblink that says "strong maternal Sephardic heritage, identifies as Jewish".

Sometimes when I see an entry here that I think is doubtful (like in my other discussion entry on Halle Berry, who I outright took off), I look all over the web to see anything that will prove it. After literally looking at about 50 web biographies on her, I have found almost NOTHING that says the above about this actress. What I have found:

- Her brother's name is CHRIS! Even the most non-religious of Jews (and many with "partial hertiage") almost never name their children Chris or Christine. It is very rare that someone named Chris has significant Jewish heritage.

- No site I found says she identifies as Jewish. In fact she was married in a fairly religious church ceremony.

- The bios all say that her father is from Scotland (and Campbell is certainly a Scottish last name) and her mother from Holland. There was once a significant Sephardic community in the Netherlands and her mother has a Spanish maiden name (some but not all Sephardic Jews have Spanish last names) so I gave a nod to that and moved her to the "partial/distant" category rather than take her out completely. Hairymon <


Again, please prove me wrong, I think this info if true is fascinating!

She's not Jewish, and has never spoken about any "Sephardic heritage" as far as I know. Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


I found a link confirming that - this website of "Jewish Teen Stars" explains her story, and gives a link to a Newsday article where she explains it herself - http://vulturelover10.tripod.com/neve.html

Sounds good to me. I was the one who moved her and as I noted above, I had seen enough (mostly her mother having "Dutch" heritage but a "Spanish" last name, which hinted at some Sephardic ancestry) to not take her out completely. I noticed the article also mentioned Meryl Streep's similar distant ancestry, which someone had put on this list as well before.

musicians

the subheadings of musicians have become completely farblunget. Gzuckier 14:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I hope this is better now.Gzuckier 18:02, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I said elsewhere...

...there is something intrinsically wrong re the criteria applied. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Lists_of_Jews#Very.2C_very_shaky_criteria I know this is, essentially, just 4 fun & not a big deal- but, still: why indulge in a rather weird game of pop-genealogy detection inflated beyond, beyond... ? Mir Harven 13:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So I suppose my proposed list of people in the Bush administration who are not Jews but whom the antisemites attack as Jews anyway is not a good idea. (Just kidding)Gzuckier 13:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I've Solved It and Everybody Is Going to Be Happy !!!

I've been reflecting upon the lively discussion about the good taste and sense regarding this article and wanted to contribute by pointing out a couple of further problems, together with my solution, which everyone is bound to find adorable.

The first problem is practical: the list could easily contain thousands of names, and still miss many important people! What to do? Here's my solution: we redo the list without citing names, ie:

50% of entertainers, 50% of writers, 40% of musicians and composers, 45% of scientists, 45% of philosophers, ...

Whoops, there it goes! The list is growing too long again.

Secondly, here's my take on handling people of half jewish ancestory, etc. presented in the form of an example: Assuming, for instance, that Bobby Fisher is half jewish, we would list as Bobby, (Christian, err... first name only), or, since that could be ambiguous, maybe even as Booby, given his present, lamentable state?

I'm happy if I've amused you. Now let's get rid of this ridiculous article! --Philopedia 1 July 2005 10:54 (UTC)


I honestly don't know what the problem with this article is. Wikipedia has lists of "Famous Puerto Ricans", "Famous Italians", etc. etc. etc. and I am pretty sure no one complains about those lists. "Jewish", besides being a religion, is an ethnicity and therefore being half Jewish is about as valid for this list as being half Italian is for the Italian list. It's frankly as simple as that.


True indeed. These other national lists should be examined as well and, where necessary, adjusted.

I could see a point in, say, a list of famous personages who have contributed specifically to Jewish culture (including religion) and history. As for the rest of it, why do we need a list of Jewish chess players and comedians? In order to brag about how smart and funny Jews are? Well, I knew that already.

Now that we have even reached the point of including a list of Famous Fictional Jews. I'm wondering, what comes next?

Still, I have to face it that opinions differ, and that some people have already invested significant effort. I'm not eager to undo the hard work of others, so I give vent to my unease in a Jewish way: through humour..

So here then is my suggestion for a new list category:

People Who Ought to Have Been Jewish

My first two entries:

Thelonious Nepomonk & Arnold Shvartz-Ennegerovich

--Philopedia 3 July 2005 21:25 (UTC)

Whitney Houston

Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown joined a group of black Jews in Israel.

6 million vs. 5.1 million Holocaust victims

In the "victims" section, in the brief blurb about the Holocaust, someone keeps changing the number of victims from 6 million to 5.1 million. I challenge that person to show me where they get this from (and neo-Nazi revisionist sites don't count, though those probably say there were "no victims" or some other garbage like that).

6 million is an established figure that is commonly found in almost any legitimate piece about the Holocaust and it's a nice round number that gives a simple scope to the magnamity of the horror. It is true that the exact number may never be known, but any source I've ever seen that tries to give one still has it close (i.e. 5.9 million, 5.8 million, etc.) and as such it's easier to say 6 million. 5.1 million is almost 20% less and as such I again challenge the person who keeps changing it Hairymon <

Weird reasoning. 100-500 k plus/minus doesnt matter, eh ? Here are reliable figures (I've put a link on the Holocaust page):http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Hitler. Mir Harven 13:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with this - but 5.1 million is Raul Hilberg's figure. 6 million is the customary round figure (perhaps high by a couple hundred thousand, but within a reasonable error interval). Hasdrubal 04:01, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Useless nonsense

This list is useless nonsense as the majority of people listed are simply not Jewish by any reasonable definition.

In a list of famous Christians I would expect to see people who identify themselves as Christian and believe in Christianity, not everyone who is somehow vaguely related to some one who is Christian. I would not expect to find famous atheists or converts to Buddhism in the list. Similarly a list of famous Muslims would presumably not include atheists, converts to Christianity or people who practise Hinduism but whose second cousin's uncle's wife's brother is Muslim.

Considering Jews as a nation rather than a religion, I would expect to see a list of famous Zulus say, containing people who identify themselves as Zulu and are recognized as Zulu not everyone who's third cousin by marriage twice removed might have seen a Zulu. Why should a list of Jews be different? Cut the list down to people who identify themselves as Jewish and are widely regarded as Jewish, not everyone that in some way can be connected to someone who might be Jewish. :P Kuratowski's Ghost 16:17, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm increasingly thinking the whole list is idiotic, as are many others, but the points you raise are certainly at the top of the concerns. Jayjg (talk) 16:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Why oh why is the "List of Jews" the only one who gets people like the ones above writing in with inspid complaints? I don't see this happening on the list of Armenians, list of famous Irish, etc. etc. etc. I'm sorry but "Jewish" is an ethnicity and not just a religion. Listing people by religion is pointless, right - your religion can change practically every week.

So consider this list as a list of people by ethnicity - akin to the Irish, Puerto Rican, Armenian lists. Someone on one of those boards made up a rule that people would be listed if they are at least 1/8th a member of the ethnicity in question - and most people seemed to agree. I think it should be cut down to 1/4th - but whatever. The point is you can't possibly write in with suggestions like cutting this down to people "widely regarded as Jews", because that's one of the most stupid things you can possibly say in this discussion. The whole point of the encyclopedia is to inform people of things they are not, alas, informed in - and you're suggesting that just because most people have no idea that someone is Jewish, we shouldn't consider them Jewish enough to be on this list? I bet a lot of people think Robin Williams is Jewish - based on your little law, maybe we should therefore list him here? Forget his Welsh/Scottish heritage - he is widely (and incorrectly, just to clarify) regarded by some as Jewish, according to you that makes him a lot more Jewish than River and Joaquin Phoenix, for example.

If the lists of Armenians, Irish and Puerto Ricans etc also include people who are only 1/4 that ethnicity then those lists are just as stupid as this one. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Moreover, listing people as Jewish when they do not consider themselves to be Jewish is not informing people, its disinformation i.e. lying. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, those lists include 1/4 and even less - as I said, someone mentioned a standard rule of 1/8th. I believe in the 1/4th rule - and it should certainly apply in this list - if for informative purposes only. Heck, the Israel's Law of Return is based on the 1/4th rule as well.

OK, as for people considering/not considering themselves Jewish. In 2005, the world (and especially the USA) is far too complicated. There are millions of people with complicated and mixed ethnic and religious backgrounds. People's self-identity and identification with a certain group can change pretty quickly. I'll use an example here -

Neve Campbell probably is something like 1/16th Jewish, if that. She was raised a Catholic. But she said in an interview that if someone asks her if she is Jewish, she would be glad to say yes.

Sarah Michelle Gellar is 100% Jewish. Both of her parents were Jewish, but they weren't really religious. Whenever asked, Gellar never gives a straight answer about being Jewish and pretty clearly tries to distance herself. She obviously does not consider herself Jewish.

So what, what, you would list Neve Campbell but not Sarah Michelle Gellar?

The point here is that a lot of people's "situations", religious and otherwise are far too complex too be able to narrow them down as being a part of some religious group.

What if Neve decides that she's not Jewish tomorrow and Sarah Michelle Gellar has a spiritual re-awakening and becomes an orthodox Jew? My point again is that these kinda things change too often to keep track of and know about. Listing people by how they identify is pointless - and not informative and accurate for an encyclopedia.

Therefore the only logical way is to list people by their ethnicity. That's not a bad idea for a list. It is, again, informative. A rule of thumb should most likely be if the person is 1/4 of that ethnicity - since if you have a Jewish or Italian or Irish grandparent, you're probably going to be effected by that in some ways - your physical appearance, some cultural knowledge, etc. etc. That's how these ethnic lists should be managed - with people who have less than 1/4 either being put up for curiosity's sake or whatever.

To finish this off - this is an encyclopedia. Our goal, above all - is completeness. To exclude someone off a list of (ethnic) Jews because they decided they don't identify as Jewish anymore is to decrease from that level of completeness. A person's ethnicity is a constant, and therefore whether or not that person identifies with said ethnicity it is still logical to include them in a list of said ethnicity. Wikipedia reports that "Jewish" is an ethnicity - and therefore this list must comply to that fact. If the opening paragraph needs to be adjusted to mention that this list is purely ethno-centric - then please adjust it. But otherwise - removing people from a "list of Jews" because they aren't religious is not very practical.

Neve Campbell is certainly not Jewish. If Sarah Michelle Geller doesn't consider herself to be Jewish then she should not be listed either. If she has a "spiritual reawakening" then she can be put on the list :P Hmmm is Jesus and the apostles on the list? By your logic they should be :P Kuratowski's Ghost 10:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we're playing on different fields here. You still seem to discuss this whole topic with a point of view that this is a list of by-religion only. Again - it is not and should not be. It is a list of famous people of a certain ETHNICITY.

Why is Campbell certainly not Jewish? She seems to consider herself as such. Jesus should of course be on the list. I'm not sure why you even asked me that - he may be a Christian religious figure, but he was obviously Jewish. Any informative list would list him under "religious figures" or whatever.

Again, you miss my point with the Sarah Michelle thing. People's ethnic and religious identifications are too complex these days to narrow down. They should be listed by ethnicity only. I would not remove Al Pacino from the Italian list if he converted to Judaism and stopped being a Catholic, just as I would not remove Gellar from this list if she became a nun. Ethnically he is still an Italian and she is still Jewish - their religious beliefs are a different matter. Regardless Gellar's personal identification - she is listed here as being ETHNICALLY Jewish, and it would not be incorrect listing her as such. Especially since, ethnically speaking again, she would not belong on any other list.

Ethnicity is a vague concept. Jewish "ethnicity" is defined largely by association unlike for example Arab ethnicity which is defined mainly by language or Zulu ethnicity which is defined largely by ancestry. Someone who has no Jewish ancestry can decide to convert to Judaism and they become Jewish. Someone whose parents are both Jewish might decide to become a Protestant and identify themself as "Anglo" American and explicitly reject being called Jewish, such a person cannot be considered Jewish despite their ancestry. You don't seem to understand this. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

No, of course they can't be called "Jewish" religion-wise. But even someone who converted to Christianity knows that they are Jewish by ethnicity. I'll use for example the Pope of France - who was born Jewish and still considers himself Jewish, ethnically. I really doubt a Protestant who is ethnically Jewish thinks himself to be Anglo-Saxon or "Anglo-American" - that just doesn't make sense. You don't suddenly gain 3,000 years worth of English ancestors by converting to the Church of England. We should of course list converts to Judaism as Jewish, but there aren't all that many of those - most American Jews consider themselves Jewish through ethnicity only - since so many are religiously unpracticing.

"Ethnicity" means different things in different contexts. Jewish identity is more complicated than you seem to realize, its not based on religious belief nor on ancestry but on choice of association. Kuratowski's Ghost 18:54, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Exactly! That is actually exactly right. Jewish identity is far too complicated - and we can't possibly know the whole story of every single person on Wikipedia and how they identify. Therefore the only logical way is to make this list be based on what we usually always know - a person's ancestry - which can be tracked and listed based on simple rules - while ethnic and religious identity can't.

But logically - if we know a person is Jewish - ethnically at least - it is probably because they chose to reveal that to the press - which certainly means they think of themselves as Jewish, even if that is to a 1/4. ---Signed by guy who didn't really register himself a Wikipedia account, July 27, 2005

Donald Graham

Donald Graham had one Jewish grandparent, three non-Jewish grandparents. His mother was not even a Jew, as Donald Grahams's only Jewish ancestry was on his mother's paternal side. By what standard does our "Jews control the media" conspiracy theorist consider him to be a Jew? Jayjg (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Similarly why is Rupert Murdoch in the list, his mother was of Jewish descent but his father was Presbyterian and he himself appears to follow Catholicism is known to be Catholic and does not consider himself to be Jewish, he belongs in a list of famous Catholics or famous Australians Kuratowski's Ghost 22:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Rupert Murdoch is not Jewish. At all. His mother is not Jewish - was never Jewish. It was just a rumour created by several anti-Semitic sites. You will not find a single reliable source that would tell you his mother is Jewish. Yes, her surname is Greene. But it is just as easily a non-Jewish surname as a Jewish one.

From "Rupert Murdoch : The Untold Story of the World's Greatest Media Wizard" - "Dame Elisabeth from her husband, Sir Keith Murdoch, when they married in 1928. She was nineteen, on her mother's side a descendant of an upper-class English family. Her father, Rupert Greene, was an affable but wild Irish gambler."

Both of Murdoch's parents are frequently mentioned as being Christian.

However - obviously you are making some sort of a point and I will answer that. If his mother was Jewish, which she is not, then he should logically be listed on the site as he is ETHNICALLY half Jewish. Just like a person who is ETHNICALLY half Italian should be listed on the Famous Italians site, regardless what religion he follows. You would have listed Murdoch under "Famous Scotsmen" as his father's heritage is Scottish, and "Famous Jews" because of his mother's heritage. And I repeat, again - his mother is not Jewish - I am just making a point.

Donald Graham should be listed. His maternal grandfather was certainly Jewish (and well known, at that). I don't think Jewish religious law should matter here at all. This listing is purely based on ethnicity - it does not matter whether the Jewish part of his heritage is paternal or maternal.

One Jewish grandparent is not the defining characteristic of whether or not one is Jewish; you'd need something a lot more substantive than that. What if he has two Scottish grandparents? Is he now Scottish? If he met the traditional definition of a Jew (i.e. mother's mother), or practiced Judaism as well, that would be something, but as it is you have nothing. Jayjg (talk) 15:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Again you mention the whole Jewish mother thing, and that was my point. The "Jewish mother" thing is a religious definition and distiniction. So, because someone had a Jewish mother instead of a Jewish father they are automatically more Jewish? Therefore if a person has a Jewish father and a maternal Jewish grandfather, but NOT a Jewish maternal grandmother, they are still "less Jewish" in your opinion than someone with a Jewish mother?

I think you may miss my whole point. And that was that this list, AS ARE ALL OTHER SUCH LISTS (Italian, Irish, Armenian, etc.) should be viewed as a list of people by ethnicity only. No one would use an "Armenian mother" rule in a list of Armenians, or an "Irish mother" rule for a list of Irishmen. The Jewish religion may have a rule like that, but the Jewish ethnicity certainly does not.

Those other lists have no people writing in with complains, and I think there should be no such problem here either. No, Donald Graham would not be "very Jewish", but he would be ethnically one quarter Jewish, and that would be enough to be mentioned in this list, for completiion purposes only. It doesn't matter what his religious identification is, the point is ETHNICALLY he is one quarter Jewish, and I would list him here as such just as I would list him in the Famous Scotsmen list as half (?) Scottish. If you check some of those other lists you will find plenty of examples of people listed as 1/4 or even 1/8 of some ethnicity. But again for some reason only people reading the Jewish version of a list like that are offended.

Go figure.

In the old South they developed a theory called the one-drop rule. A single black ancestor, no matter how remote, made one black. Are we implementing the same policy here for Jews? Maybe we should differentiate between those who are only ethnically Jewish and those who are religiously Jewish. -Willmcw 19:42, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think we should look beyond the "List of Jews" and into all "Lists of whichever ethnicity" and implement one defining rule for all of them. My idea was being 1/4 of whichever ethnicity. That is also Israel's Law of Return for Jews. And it seems to make sense from a cultural and ethnic point of view. Having a grandparent of some ethnicity would effect you in some ways at least. If you check the list itself there are barely any people listed with less than 1/4 (except for the special section of "Distant & Partial", which isn't a very big section).

I'll cede to Israel's definition of a Jew -- being that they should know -- and if the Law of Return for Jews specifies 1/4 Jewish blood, then that should be the standard for this list, and therefore, Donald Graham should go back up, shouldn't he? Kirkswig 20:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Israel doesn't have a law about who is a Jew, it has a law about who qualifies under the Law of Return, which is basically anyone who might have been persecuted by the Nazis, including non-Jews with no Jewish ancestry. Israel doesn't actually decide who is or isn't a Jew; nor do the Nazis, for that matter. Regardless, I don't think you should add non-Jews to the list just because they qualify under the Law of Return, do you? Jayjg (talk) 20:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's what our article Who is a Jew? says:
  • The situation in Israel is somewhat ambiguous. One area where the definition of Jew is relevant is in deciding who qualifies to make aliyah and acquire citizenship under the Law of Return. The requirements here differ significantly from the definition of a Jew under halakha, in including anyone with a Jewish grandparent, as well as non-Jewish spouses of Jews. However they specifically exclude Jews who have converted to a faith other than Judaism. This definition is not the same as that in traditional Jewish law; in some respects it is a deliberately wider, so as to include those non-Jewish relatives of Jews who were perceived to be Jewish, and thus faced anti-Semitism, but in other respects it is narrower, as the traditional definition includes "apostate" Jews.
This appears to be a very different standard than has been proposed for this article. (PS could editors please sign and date their talk page entries? Thanks). -Willmcw 20:40, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
Accord to Law of Return, it is exclusively Jews who benefit. That said, no mention is made as to the percentage of "Jewishness" a person has to be. So, simply for the purpose of simplifying the task here, I would maintain that this is probably the best standard to adopt here; why repeat arguments the Knesset has already resolved? Moving back to Donald Graham, I would point out that there are numerous entries in this list where the individual is identified as being Jewish by virtue of a Jewish grandparent. And while I can see going points on either side of this debate, with respect to Donald Graham, I think the bias should be towards his being included in the list, simply because his ascendency as owner/chairman/CEO/publisher of The Washington Post derives from his Jewish lineage. Kirkswig 22:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The Knesset has resolved no issues at all regarding who is a Jew; in fact, they have been repeatedly unable to do so. The Knesset has resolved its own immigration law, for now, which is something else. And, as pointed out, it is not just Jews who benefit from this law. The Law of Return is irrelevant to who is a Jew. Jayjg (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Further criteria: Though not stated, this is obviously intended to be a list of notable Jews, not of all Jews. A good proxy for evaluating notability is having a Wikipedia article. Also, it doesn't help the readers of biographies if the only place the subject's Jewishness is mentioned is here. Also, the editors of biographies will be most familiar with the religion and ethnicity of their subjects. Therefore, I'd recommend that everyone on this list should A) have a Wikipedia article, and B) it should mention their Jewishness. Of course if there is a particult reason for either criterion to be bent, then an editor can state the reason why. We recently implemented similar criteria at the List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people in order to give that list more rigor. Any thoughts? -Willmcw 00:38, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
I strongly agree. Jayjg (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It is a very good idea to list only people who have a Wikipedia article. In fact I'm going to go ahead and cut down all the actors who don't have an entry. As for noting their ethnicity in the article - that's something that should certainly be done - but it's a long term process.

The Law Of Return was established shortly after WWII, but of course is still effective today. Therefore 1/4 Jews like say, Helen Hunt or David Beckham - or indeed Donald Graham, could move to Israel tomorrow if they so desired. I think the Law of Return is reasonable and the whole 1/4 thing should be effective for all ethnicity lists, not just this one. 1/2 doesn't tell the whole story, and 1/8 is pretty distant.

As pointed out above, the Law of Return is not "Who is a Jew"; if Posh Spice moved to Israel with David Beckham would you include her on this list as well? Jayjg (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I love your example. But anyway - the crucial difference is - Posh Spice couldn't move to Israel all by herself. The only way she would be able to is if David Beckham moved there with her. The Law of Return allows non-Jews married to Jews to move to Israel because it's the only logical thing to do, obviously - they can't separate families. But non-Jews married to Jews couldn't move to Israel if their spouse wasn't moving there with them. I hope you understand - it's hard to explain but in a way it's a pretty crucial difference. Anyway, regardless of the Law - 1/4 sounds pretty reasonable for any ethnic category. ---Signed by guy who didn't really register himself a Wikipedia account, July 27, 2005

Please sign and date your talk page entries. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:05, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Would you remove anyone who had two Jewish parents, but had converted to Christianity (or some other faith)? Jayjg (talk) 17:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I was talking with someone about this just up above - I used the example of the (former) Pope of France. He was born Jewish - obviously is not religiously Jewish anymore - but he often talks about being Jewish and calls himself "Jewish" ethnically. Again the topic of religion vs. ethnicity comes in - and it is a topic that I think is mostly exclusive to this particular ethnic group. In all honesty - I think we should just let the visitor make up their minds - but of course let them know the full story - i.e. listing the person and mentioning their conversion. Let the visitor think what they think of each person listed - our job should be to deliver the full facts on every case. ---Signed by guy who didn't really register himself a Wikipedia account, July 27, 2005

A proposal

Reading the comments...hm...I'd say the list should contain people converted to Judaism and those of Jewish extraction (mother, father, grandpa, whoever) known to possess or profess some kind of Jewish identity, and are as such recognized by others (rational people, not maniacs). Others may be put under a more flexible category, say: People of (partial ) Jewish ancestry. This would make a list more rational & tenable. Mir Harven 08:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Some questions about 24.141.149.226's Edits

I am curious regarding two of your many edits that you did to this list:

1) Why did you remove Miriam Hyman? I know that little if anything in the press has mentioned her as Jewish, but most articles say there were at least a couple of Jewish victims of the July 7 London bombings and I would be extremely surprised with a name like that that she is not at least 1/4 Jewish by ethnicity, if not 1/2. I would think that Susan Levy's name would be more likely to be removed from the list; like maybe Levy is her husband's name and she's not Jewish at all or something. I would rather hear from you on this before I put her back in since I certainly do not know it all and don't like when edits get put in back and forth. I'm also guessing that you are from the UK and would know more than I since you spelled "rumor" in regard to you Rupert Murdoch edit "rumour" (wild guess since it could obviously also mean you're from Canada or Australia, which would possibly qualify you more than I for #2 below).

or New Zealand or South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, Malawi, Zambia etc, its only people from the States who can't spell ;) Kuratowski's Ghost 22:09, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

2) Anthony Field of the Wiggles. Though I put him in, I believe you are right and I'm curious if you know of an article saying one way or another. The few pieces I've seen that claim Jewish sometimes even have him as a distant cousin of Frank and Storm Field (long time father and son New York area TV weathermen who are both Jewish), but Jewhoo said (without quantifying where to find it) that this is a lie. Jewhoo interestingly did say that he worked at a synagogue in a prior job, but says no connection otherwise.

hairymon 02:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

2 - Anthony Field. Jewhoo had him up for a long time - but then posted a correction that he was not Jewish. His band or group performs a lot of Jewish-related material or something like that, and that him being Jewish is a misassumption shared by many Australians. That's really all I Know. Jewhoo has always been right, so I assumed they were right again and followed through.

1 - I am from Canada and I do usually spell it as "rumour" (I have to thank Jewhoo for that Murdoch thing again - they had a little note about him not being Jewish. Otherwise I would have probably trusted the anti-Semitic sites saying that his mother was Jewish and not even bothered to look up a full-scale book bio and find out that she was Irish/English and Christian).

Miriam Hyman was Jewish. There are a few articles in the Jewish press that mention it. So was Susan Levy - the two are usually mentioned in the same articles.

There's a nice (well, so to speak) article on the bombing subject that mentions them here - http://www.chicagojewishnews.com/features.jsp#195467

As for why I removed her? I didn't. I checked the archives and it was Proto who removed her for some reason. Although I did remove a few people in some categories who had no Wikipedia entry. Feel free to put her and Levy in.

And feel free to ask me about any more edits. I find this kind of discussion (as opposed to all the "this list is stupid" type of thing up above) refreshing.

Oh, and I have a question. I removed Christian Castro (the singer) because I couldn't find any info about him except for the fact that he got married in a Jewish wedding - but clearly his wife was Jewish so that explained that and his first name really bugged me. Does anyone know for sure? ---Signed by guy who didn't really register himself a Wikipedia account, July 27, 2005 (aka 24.141.149.226)

Thanks for the reply. Yes, they do surprisingly do some Jewish-oriented songs, and when they comment about them, it was Anthony who made the comment. But Jewhoo says his knowledge is from his past job being a janitor at a synagogue and yes, I too think they are one of the best sources out there for "accuracy", so I was just curious.

I agree with you on edit discussions, those are the only ones I participate in (see my past ones about the fools who put Halle Berry in and the one about Neve Campbell, which I questioned but learned a lot from). Keep up the great edits.

hairymon

List of Jewish believers

This would be a useful list to have. Anyone up for creating one? --Bonalaw 09:49, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead. Would you like a copy of my synagogue's telephone directory for starters? This list is utterly preposterous. If you compare this list to List of Christians, List of Hindus, List of Muslims, List of Buddhists, List of Taoists, the impression you'll immediately get is that there are approximately 85 billion Jews. This whole thing should be moved to jewwatch.com whence I imagine most of it was taken. Tomer TALK 04:26, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
You'd never be able to get agreement on it. Would you include Baruch Spinoza or Albert Einstein, who rejected traditional organised Judaism but were far from atheists? Would you exclude Rabbi Louis Jacobs or even Chief Rabbi Joseph H. Hertz, both of whom have been accused of holding heretical views? - RachelBrown 11:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Not that I even need to explain my motivation for adding the tag, but just so its clear (and doesnt get reverted), this list is ridiculous. How can you say that just because someone else identifies you as a Jew you are a Jew? Isnt that a little Naziish? Not to mention fundamentally idiotic? Isnt this list ignoring the fact that there is huge division among Jewish sects as to who is a Jew? The last time I checked Orthodox Jews do not recognize reformed Jews. Im also curious as to which sect Dr. Zoidberg fits into? Is he Reconstructionist? freestylefrappe 02:14, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

It is both ridiculous and Naziesque. Lenin was a Jew, for example, because he said that antisemitism was a crime against communism. John Kerry is listed because his father's father's father was a Jew. No one, except the crowd who thinks that Jews are the last people in the world who should have a say in who is and who isn't a Jew, would insist on listing Lenin, Kerry, Duchovny or Geraldo (or a whole host of others listed). The entire thing is preposterous. You're not the first to point it out, and I doubt you'll be the last. Tomer TALK 04:33, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

For further evidence of how utterly ridiculous this list is, check out the criteria for inclusion on the List of anti-Semites. Tomer TALK 05:03, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


Look, guys, this list is meant to inform above all else. The whole point is that it is neutral - does not take a particular religious point of view, simply because there are so many available. Let the visitor make up their minds based on their own personal opinions - our job is to provide the correct and complete information, and let them decide for themselves.

It is meant to be purely an ethnicity-based list, just like the Greekn and Irish and any other ethnicity lists out there (which include people who are 1/4 and certainly 1/2 of any ethnicity). Forget ANY religious viewpoint, and look at this as purely ethnicity based. On those grounds it is accurate and factual. --24.141.149.226

Wikipedia should disambiguate. List of Ethnic Jews and List of Religious Jews. --Bonalaw 08:21, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

With all respect, this list is not meant to inform, it is, if you read the criteria for inclusion in the list, a tool for labeling people as "Jews" in order to push the POV that "Jews run the world", and is here for the sole purpose of "exposing the extent to which Jews control X-factor of the world". The fixation with Jews, according to whatever ridiculous criterion is necessary to categorize people as "Jews", demonstrates that quite clearly. The fact that "considered by some (i.e., anyone with an agenda) to be Jews" is regarded as a legitimate criterion for inclusion here is ludicrous, and defending such a criterion is obscene in the extreme, not to mention that it's an insult to the Jewish community as a whole, since it specifically removes from Jews the ability to say who is and who is not a Jew. On what grounds do you defend the inclusion, for example, of Lenin and John Kerry? Notice that John Kerry is not listed at List of Czechs, nor at the nonexistant List of Bohemians or List of Moravians. Nor is he even at List of Roman Catholics. If we were to follow User:Bonalaw's proposal to split the list up into Ethnic and Religious Jews, the four previous examples I mentioned (above), David Duchovny, Vladimir Lenin, Geraldo Rivera, and John Kerry would all have to be excluded, since none of them are Jewish according to any Jewish interpretation of jewishness, nor are/were any of them ever identifiably Jews according to religious criteria. In fact, over half of this list should be lopped out since it seems to be little more than a transfer of names from the notoriously antisemitic site jewwatch.com. Tomer TALK 09:16, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent points. Perhaps, as has been suggested before, this article should be pruned of any entries that do not have a Wikipdia article, and that do not explicitly state in that article that the person is a Jew. Jayjg (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Ummm to Tshilo12 - your comment is, in one simple yet decidedly accurate word, stupid. You should be ashamed to exhibit such rampant paranoia. "exposing the extent to which Jews control X-factor of the world" - I mean, honestly? Does this topic really have to be brought up? Does any list of Jews have to be automatically connected to decades and centuries-old conspiracy theory ideas? Can't you view it as a celebration of Jewish accomplishments as opposed to some damning list which tries to label Jews as running the world? I don't see this happening in any of the other ethnicity (or religion) based lists. It is frankly offensive to bring it up here. Bringing it up without any real reason is just asking for pointless trouble.

I've been to the lovely little website "jewwatch" and a large amount of the information there is incorrect. This is not the case for this list. This list has been carefully researched and I can provide you with proof for every single person listed here. Yes, even your fav Daniel Pipes (the wiki entry for his father even mentions his Jewishness, in case you still have some weird doubts). As for removing people who have no Wiki entry - I've actually filtered a few of the categories in order to exclude such people - I agree on that subject. As for the Wiki entries mentioning the person's Jewishness - well, a large amount of the entries do mention that - some do not mention anything - but that doesn't make the person any less Jewish. Certainly work should be done to mention the background of most major-league people listed on Wiki, and I don't mean just Jews.

John Kerry on List of Czechs? Why would he be listed there? Ethnically, he is half Jewish and half English/Irish/Scottish. His paternal grandparents weren't even Czech by nationality - they were Austrian. I would expect to see him on List Of Jews, List of Roman Catholics, and list of Irish, etc. Obviously with a country as multicultural as America you would expect to see certain people show up on more than one list.

Geraldo Rivera is Jewish on his mother's side and David Duchovny is Jewish on his father's. Both often talk about being half Jewish and certainly identify as Jewish, at least partially. Removing them would be pointless and would not reflect the often complex state of modern day Jewish identity.

Lenin is listed as having a Jewish maternal grandfather - and indeed, he had a Jewish maternal grandfather. Nothing more than that. Some people would read that and think "he's not really Jewish", some would think he is, and most would probably just think "hey, that's kinda cool". We understand what side of that you (tshilo12) would land on, but the point is not everyone agrees with you and in fact the list would lose its neutrality if we took your more conservative point of view on this.

Right now - the list is simply meant to provide the facts - and let visitors think what they want to think based on their own points of view towards the subject. It's really as simple as that. Otherwise - the list is accurate. --24.141.149.226

It's kind of a cliche, but if you're Jewish enough that you would have had a reservation on the Auschwitz Express, you're Jewish enough to get mentioned here. Gzuckier 19:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
That would exclude people with one Jewish grandparent, and even those with two Jewish grandparents who did not express any connection with Judaism. If we use that criterion we're going to have to cut out all those people anon insisted on keeping in. Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I thought one grandparent was enough. Gee, to think all these years I've been unfairly maligning the Nazis! Gzuckier 05:41, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Bonalaw made a good suggestion which I strongly agree with; disambiguating this list into several smaller lists. Some of these entries are always going to be controversial though a few were clearly added as jokes (Zoidberg). When disambiguating we must take into account two main sets of criteria, religious and ancestoral. This in turn can be broken further into Orthodox, Reformed, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Falasha, Conversos, etc. freestylefrappe 20:07, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Orthodox, Conservative, Reform are not mutually exclusive lists, and for many it would be impossible to tell which applied anyway. Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You know what, maybe this disambiguation thing is the best idea. In my opinion it is honestly much easier and more accurate listing people by ethnicity, since one's religion or personal identification can change practically every other day. But ethnicity is a constant. But as for this Orthodox/Conservative thing, etc. honestly I don't even know the difference between any of those, and it would be near impossible to know exactly what sect of Judaism most of these people fit into. So two separate lists - "list of ethnic Jews" and "list of religious Jews" would make sense. Basically the ethnicity-based list is going to be exactly the same as this one, excluding the few converts. ---24.141.149.226

John Kerry is an ethnic Jew? Vladimir Lenin is an ethnic Jew? Converts aren't ethnic Jews? If you believe that, I submit to you that you are making up a definition to serve your views, and that your knowledge of the difference between orthodox and conservative is equal to your knowledge of who is or isn't a Jew. Tomer TALK 04:10, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Ummm..... I'm sorry - I may be missing something - but why wouldn't they be Jewish - ethnically speaking? I mean, of course John Kerry is half-Jewish ethnically (his father was "fully" of the Jewish ethnicity), just like John Travolta is half-Italian ethnically. And Lenin is ethnically 1/4 Jewish. And OF COURSE converts aren't ethnic Jews. Marilyn Monroe is ETHNICALLY Norwegian and Scottish or whatnot despite her conversion. That seems pretty obvious to me. You don't gain 3000 years worth of Jewish ancestors by converting. I'm not sure what you meant just now - explain? ---24.141.149.226

John Kerry's grandfather was Jewish, as was Lenin's. Neither of them are "ethnically Jewish" because according to no definition of "Jewish" are either of them Jewish. That they have partial Jewish ancestry is like saying that my ex-sister-in-law is "ethnically Haitian" because her great-great-great-great-grandmother was an escaped Haitian slave. There is no "of course" that makes converts not "ethnic Jews". Your argument, in fact, weakens your point. ALL Jews are either converts or descendants of converts. You seem to be muddling the definitions of "ethnicity" and "ancestry". Tomer TALK 05:11, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


Your information about John Kerry is incorrect. Both of his paternal grandparents were ETHNIC Jews. Check his Wikipedia profile, under "Family History" - it even says so. Both were born into the Jewish faith (and ethnicity) and both converted to Catholicism, which makes their religion Catholic but their ethnicity Jewish. As a matter of fact, the story is that John Kerry was aware his paternal GRANDMOTHER was born Jewish - he just didn't know his grandfather was Jewish, too, until a reporter discovered it. Lenin - I already said as much. The exact point of an "ethnic Jews" list is to disregard any "Jewish Law", since that law is religion-based - even the "Jewish mother" law which I am not particularly fond of, but never mind that. Ancestry is the same as ethnicity - if you have two Jewish grandparents then your ancestry is half Jewish as is your ethnicity. If only your sister's great-great, etc. was Haitian it means she is ETHNICALLY 1/64 Haitian, just as Princess Diana is 1/64 Armenian - to use a random example. "Ancestry" as a word is somewhat confusing - I prefer using "nationality" (place of birth) and "ethnicity" (genetic makeup). Most Europeans for example, are of the same ethnicity as they are nationality. No Americans - except maybe Native Americans in a sense - are American by ethnicity, though all are by nationality.

Of course not all converts to Judaism are ethnically un-Jewish. What I meant was most - if not almost all - of the ones on this page are not Jewish ethnically and would not be listed as such. I suppose there are a scant few modern-day Jews who are descended (partially, most likely) from converts - but that number is small. That's why the term "ashkenazi Jews" exists - it denotes an ethnicity that most modern-day American Jews are members of. And it most certainly is an ethnicity.

The common rule for "ethnicity-based" lists seems to be 1/8th of a certain ethnicity. I think 1/4 is more logical. I'm also not sure why there is so much confusion about this issue - being half Jewish ethnically should be as simple as being half Italian ethnically. And that, is that. ---24.141.149.226

I really don't feel like arguing with you about this any further. You are clearly relying on your misinterpretation of "ethnicity" and "ancestry", as well now, as "nationality". Your proposal, as well as basically everything you say in support of it, is founded entirely in your POV, substantiated by what amounts to what WP defines as OR. You're free to hold your opinions, but in this case, they're just plain wrong. As for your proposal, while I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you, is useless, since the only way to determine which is which, is for everyone to come ask you how you define so-and-so. Tomer TALK 05:30, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


I dunno - maybe I'm misunderstanding this somehow? I thought this wasn't really an opinion - but common fact? Hey, maybe I was misinformed. What is the difference between ancestry and ethnicity? And in that case, give me an example - let's say John Kerry (i.e. what you think his ethnicity and ancestry are; and be aware his paternal grandmother was born Jewish too) - so I can understand what you're trying to say. I'm not being sarcastic here or anything, I just want to understand. ---24.141.149.226

I'm going to go clean the refrigerator. Meanwhile, check out "ancestry", "nationality" and "ethnicity". I'm not a dictionary. Tomer TALK 05:38, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

k, here it is: from dictionary.com Nationality - "The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization" - yup, that's what I thought. That makes John Kerry an American by nationality. His grandparents were Austrian by nationality. That is exactly what I thought and said. 1 out of 3.

Ancestry - "Ancestral descent or lineage. Ancestors considered as a group. " Well, this could refer to either nationality or ethnicity - could be both at the same time. Therefore, to use John Kerry as an example - he is of Austrian (national ancestry) Jewish (ethnic ancestry) descent on his father's side. Yup - that's what I thought. 2 out of 3.

Ethnicity - "ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"" "Racial" is a strong word - but I guess the only substitute is "ethnic". John Kerry is ETHNICALLY half Jewish, and half Anglo-Saxon. I'm not sure what exactly is incorrect with this - since you don't seem to tell me anything other than the fact that I am wrong. Well if I'm wrong, what's right here? You have to realize that I am not using ANY - and I mean ANY - common "Jewish" point of view - i.e. the Jewish mother rule, etc. I reserve that for religion and religion only. What I am using here is the basic "ethnicity" rule that people utilize to describe themselves. I.e. if someone's father is "fully" Italian - even if he's a 6th generation American - they would describe themselves as "ethnically" half Italian. The same goes for someone whose father is of "fully" Jewish descent. I really don't understand what is so "unique" and "incorrect" in my "opinions". You really don't seem to want to explain. Anyway, 3 out of 3 correct. ---24.141.149.226

I told you, I'm not interested in discussing it further.
Then you're in the wrong place. Gzuckier 20:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
You're wrong, and I'm not going to convince you that what you're doing is trying to reinvent the definitions of words according to your POV. It's nonsensical, and I've tired of the fruitless back and forth. Instead, I would like to propose a more sensible alternative "splitting up" method, namely, fix the lead so that it's grammatically and syntactically correct, and then split this insanely long list up into smaller lists all of which point to this, which would become essentially a "list of lists", for clarification on how "Jew" is being misdefined. The resulting lists then would be named something like List of Jews in the performing arts, List of Jews in politics, List of Jews in finance, List of Jews in the military, etc. Does that sound reasonable to you? Tomer TALK 08:48, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

You mean like the sub-list we have right now, of "List of Actors", which was split off from the main list? Certainly an idea like that sounds reasonable to me.

As for me apparently being wrong, it looks like that's all you're willing to tell me. Which is incredibly frustrating, since you don't seem to want to offer your opinion on the reason why I'm wrong and you're right, or in what way you're right.

Anyway ---24.141.149.226

"in what way you're right." ethnically? Anyway, FWIW, a quick and statistically unmeaningful poll of the people eating lunch says that EVERYONE thinks Duchovny is Jewish, everyone assumed Lenin was at least part Jewish, and everyone who paid attention during the election and heard all the facts in the newsspew considers Kerry as "part-Jewish". It seems like they have apparently been sucked in by the POV of this article, I guess. Gzuckier 20:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

24.ip anon: I'm not here to explain why your POV is right or wrong considering my POV on your views regarding whether or not Jews should have the right to determine who is or who is not Jewish. This is the talk page for List of Jews, not a classroom. Let's stick to the subject. Tomer TALK 21:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

And yes, that's what I mean. The list right now is ridiculous, but it's also ridiculously long. If we have this just be a list of lists, and send people to other more specific lists that will break up the list into digestible chunks. This is what they do at yid.com or somewhere, I don't remember, one of those "who's a Jew?" sites, and it seems perfectly reasonable. I think that would be a much better approach, keeping the qualifiers as they are now, ("1/16 Jewish because grandfathers dog's former had a Jewish grandparent"), etc. If the list were about who's actually a Jew instead of who everyone considers a Jew, then I'd say let's just put all these people Category:Jews and get rid of this list. Since this list has much more arbitrary inclusion criteria, however, (I hope!) then let's keep the list but break it down, like I said, into a list of lists, and then police any new additions to make sure they're put into the proper list instead of here. Also then, make a template probably that goes on the top of each of the new lists, containing the convoluted inclusion criteria, as well as a link to the List of Jews, so that people realize what they're dealing with. Sound like a plan? Tomer TALK 21:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, it sounds like a plan. But I really do implore you to stop belittling the list the way you do - i.e. 1/16th because grandfather's whatever - unlike the other ethnicity based lists (the Irish one lists Mohammad Ali....), I would like to keep this one to a 1/4 only - and that is exactly the way I have done, editing out anyone who has less than one "fully" Jewish grandparent (except for the Distant/Partial section, which wasn't my idea and is a novelty anyway). 1/4 sounds mighty reasonable to me. Having a grandparent of a certain ethnicity (or religion) would certainly effect a person - whether it is genetically (my area of expertise), culturally, or even religiously speaking.

And again with this "letting Jews decide who is Jewish" - what do you mean? Like we've discussed, there are so many different religious interpretations of who is Jewish that it's wise to stick to the universally accepted laws of ethnicity, so to speak - and use the same laws for every ethnicity-based list. But you're probably just going to say I'm wrong and not really explain, so I'll stop talking about this.

Anyway, split the list away at your leisure. ---24.141.149.226



Tomer, I know this is mostly between you and the "24 ip" guy (or gal), and not to drive this discussion any crazier, but I do have a challenging question for you.

What "ethnicity" would you consider a "Jewish" person then? I think I know your answer, you're going to say that of whatever country he or she is from, i.e. a Jew whose forebears are from Russia would be "Russian". There's a problem with this. First off, at least historically, most non-Jews from European nations with significant Jewish populations did not consider their Jewish compatriots to be of the same ethnicity and vice versa. I'm sure hardly any a "German" Jew would think to call themself ethnically "German" even if they could show 1000 years of ancestors in the country, particularly given the events of Hitler and World War II.

Also, there are certain foods that were common among Jews between different countries in Europe that were not so common among the "Christian ethnics" of or between those countries. For example (as noted in the Wikipedia entry on bagels), bagels were invented in Poland and Russia, but for the most part non-Jewish Poles and Russians didn't eat or bake them until well into the 20th Century.

Finally, a majority (though far from all) Jews until the 19th or even early 20th Century did not even speak the native tongue of their so-called "ethnic" lands, but spoke Yiddish instead. Hardly an argument for the ethnicity of their "native" land.

There is precedent for this, that is an ethnicity without a set geography, some could argue that the Roma/Gypsies would fall under that category.

Also, when you say all Jews are decendents of converts, well so are adherents of any religion when you think about it.

So Tomer, what is your answer to the question now? I'm not intending to go "back and forth" like you did with "24", but I am very curious (I do agree with your comments about converts not being of Jewish ethnicity though). --- hairymon

Ummm... are you telling me all this time I've been talking to a guy who doesn't even consider "Jewish" to be an ethnicity? If I'd known that, I wouldn't have even bothered. I'd had one of those talks with someone else before (not on Wiki, I mean) and it was essentially useless. And in that case my "pov" is hardly unique - and in fact, Wikipedia acknowledges the existence of ethnic Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews) and Sephardic Jews, so that's that. ---24.141.149.226 (oh btw hairymon, I am a "he")

As I've said, this is not the place for such discussions. Ashkenazi is a blanket term that covers half a dozen Jewish ethnicities, Sfaradi is a blanket term that covers about 20 Jewish ethnicities, Mizrachi is a gross-linguistic-miscarriage-of-sanity blanket term that covers about 50 Jewish ethnicities. Shall I go on? "Jew" is a nationality whose sole sustaining characteristic is Judaism. If you need to content yourself with definitions that have no bearing in anything but your desire to categorize and classify, whatever, I don't care, as long as you put your little percentage disclaimers in there. Without Judaism, Jews cease to be Jews within a generation or two, usually at most 5 or 6 and all vestiges of Jewishness are gone, unless they're purposefully kept, but that really only happens in circumstances of forced conversion to some other religion. Ethnically, such people end up little different from their neighbors, they just have peculiar habits. Some families eat ham on Thanksgiving. Incidentally, "ethnicity" is not genetic, ancestry is. Ethnicity involves all kinds of social constructs. Nationality has become horribly confused in the post-WWI era with Citizenship. None of this has anything to do with the article tho. Tomer TALK 03:34, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. If only you'd explained yourself like that, or something along the lines of that earlier, the discussion could have ended much sooner. I don't really see any difference between my "opinion", so to speak, and yours, and that is excellent. As for "contending myself with a desire to classify" - well, that is true, and above all my desire is to classify - however I believe "my opinon" (or method of classifying) is also true for the majority of the American secular Jewish population. As for Judaism being the sole sustaining characteristic of Jews - yes, that is sort of true - but it's not really relevant to the article. And with the (re-)birth of Israel in the 20th century, I think there are different options for "sustaining characteristics". Anyway, if this list doesn't get deleted, then it should be split up - because yes, it is way too large. In fact, why doesn't someone split it up now and see if it keeps the deleters at bay? ---24.141.149.226

I recommend let's collaborate on an overhaul of the lead first. What say? (I need to go to bed soon tho.) Tomer TALK 07:05, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


OK, I am going to change the lead/opening paragraph a bit now - see if you like it. I understand that phrases like "described by others as Jewish" are a bit misleading - in my opinion that refers to something like, say, Nikki Reed saying in an interview that Evan Rachel Wood, her "Thirteen" co-star, is Jewish too. But I guess to most people the phrase doesn't seem that innocent.

As for splitting the page - well, I'm not sure if I'm even able to do that without registering. Wanna give that a try? ---24.141.149.226

The splitting is going to be cutting and pasting. Since nobody's objected, I'll do it if you're uncomfortable with it. Meanwhile, in case you're wondering how to get an account, check out Wikipedia:Account :-). Tomer TALK 19:56, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Go for it. ---24.141.149.226

Also, as far as rewriting the lead, esp. when noting the criteria for inclusion, consider what JRM wrote on the VFD page, about how List of atheists was reformed. Tomer TALK 20:00, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

How's that?

OK! I've rewritten the lead, at {{Jew list}}. This template needs some serious work IMHO, as evidenced by the comments I've left in the text (which will become visible once you click [edit]). That said, I've split off the various sections to appropriate articles. The "miscellaneous" section remains mostly because I'm just too mentally exhausted to put these links into the appropriate articles. I would appreciate it if someone would take the time to do so, and, if necessary, create appropriately named articles to handle any relevant new minilists to shove these people into. My goal is to see to it that this List of Jews be really nothing more than a superlist, with no links to articles on individuals herefrom. Any new articles, please remember to put {{Jew list}} on top, and Category:Lists of Jews on the bottom. And PLEASE! Make your edit summaries concise.  :-D Tomer TALK 06:20, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Howard Stern

Howard Stern is definitely half-Jewish and likely to be completely Jewish. See the Howard Stern FAQ http://scifi.squawk.com/howard.html For the record, I like these lists. They're fun. And I'm proud to see that we've had such a profound positive effect on the world with such a small population.

Please delete this once Howard Stern has either been added, or considered and not added, to the list.

Jewish categories

I started making a few new categories: Category:Jews in music, Category:Jews in science, and Category:Jews in the visual arts, however User:Lulu_of_the_Lotus-Eaters has nominated all these for renaming due to his aversion to the phrase "Jews in". The reason I created the Jews in music category was because I knew Category:Jewish musicians and Category:Jewish music existed but mainly covered yiddish/religious music. I have persuaded Lulu to change the name of the current category to Jewish classical musicians (as this basically covers the people I had added to it) but I still feel a category such as Category:Jews in western music needs to be the parent category of all classical, pop, jazz, rock, musical sub categories to avoid confusion with yiddish music, Klezmer etc. I would appreciate everyones views on this. Arnie587 23:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I think "Jews in Western Music" is a good idea. Vulturell 23:37, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Category "Jewish musicians" should stand for musicians who are ethnically Jewish and not for musicians playing Jewish Music. This is a serious mistake in categorizing. Musicians playing Jewish Music do not need to be Jewish at all. gidonb 09:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

List of Jewish bankers on Afd

Anyone want to help defend this? A lot of the voters are assuming bad faith. Kappa 13:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

also

Campaign to delete all Jewish categories

please vote here Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Sub-Categories_of_Jewish_people Arniep 13:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)