Talk:List of K-pop concerts held outside Asia

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This is too little... There were a whole lot more than this. JYJ, Junsu, 2NE1, just to mention a few. 小龙 (Timish) # ^{xiǎolóng de xìnxiāng} 11:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

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Notability of entries

If the tour/concert doesn't have its own article, doesn't that make it non-notable for the list?  czar ⨹ 16:00, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

@Asdklf;, re: your question, see above czar ⨹ 18:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of recent edits

First of all, kudos to Drmies for tackling the effort to "clean-up" and make tidy this page, per WP rules and regulations. In particular, the 2015 projected dates of concerts that had not occurred, as WP, as we know, "is not a crystal ball" and the concerts may or may not actually take place in the future.

But, I would like to discuss why I feel some of the deletions were not needed, and point out some inconsistencies in the cuts, and why such editing is subjective.

In answer to the question from Czar above "If the tour/concert doesn't have its own article, doesn't that make it non-notable for the list?", I believe that we may interpret Drmies recent edits to mean the answer is "no, not necessarily". Drmies's final edits, to date, have left a number of concerts and tours, on the list, that do not have their own pages. Just one set of examples: concerts for SS501 members Kim Hyung-jun, Heo Young-saeng and Park Jung-min, all without their own pages, were left intact.

I believe that Drmies made every attempt to comprehend which concert/tour was notable and which were not, and documented the edits with reasonable explanations. And, as noted above, the edits even retained concert/tours whose "notability" was not proven by having their own pages. "Therein lies the rub", as Shakespeare pointed out. Drmies's opinions, my opinions, and Czar's opinions, and (any other editor's opinions) about what concerts were notable will vary. For instance, I thought the historical significance of first-time K-Pop concerts by Lunafly in Guatemala, Costa Rica, and Guadalajara, Mexico worthy. And smaller tours by Led Apple in Europe, especially Romania, and NU'EST in South America - but these concert tours, made possible by fan votes with MyMusicTaste.com, were all deleted.

As a world venture, I think of WP as a collaborative effort for world peoples to share information. Some of the deleted concerts/tours may well be noted on WP language pages in Spanish or Russian - but I have not researched this, and would otherwise, as an English speaker, probably never hear of them. What is "notable" to me, on this particular English page, for a comprehensive list of concerts outside Asia, is that I will read about events in other countries and note the history of K-Pop's expansion outside Asia. Maybe each little concert in Guatemala, not significant unto itself, speaks volumes in the bigger sphere of what WP, only, is capable of documenting for people around the world. K-Pop, like other world popular phenomenon (an older example being hip-hop), centers on the popular English language, for a shared understanding, by people of many languages. And English language WP benefits with view statistics.

And, however confusing the actual "clean-up" became, with fans re-adding information, and reverts and deletes happening - it feels like the proverbial throw out the baby with the bath water. One example - dates for the 2012 JYJ Worldwide Concert were left on the List, but the 2011 dates for the same concert tour in Canada, United States, Spain and Germany were deleted.

Finally, I recommend, no tongue-in-cheek, that a possible solution is that the descriptive line This is a list of all notable K-Pop concerts held outside the Asian continent. be changed to This is a list of all K-Pop concerts held outside the Asian continent. We drop the notable and all concerts with verifiable sources and references could be added to the list, or deleted, with necessary reasoning and editing, by all editors. I don't believe the amount will be significant enough to challenge acceptable page space allotted to any WP article. And, if the space amount becomes too great, perhaps the article could be divided into continents - as the historical importance is "concerts outside Asia".--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• Convention is that in such articles things are listed that have articles. You'll find articles that don't follow that convention, but I believe those to be exceptions. (And so changing the phrasing "notable" doesn't change matters fundamentally.) The problem of course is that if this editing guideline is not followed, there is no argument against including every single K-pop concert every played, and that simply turns us into a better-organized version of Google. Defining what can be included and what can't is really quite simple: if it can have an article, it's notable--and determining whether it can have an article is best done by writing that article. My rationale is to cut what doesn't have an article (and to cut individual dates from tours), though in at least one case I left a Korean music festival that seemed to deserve an article. Now, if you want to read a history of K-pop's expansion outside of Asia, a list article like this one is of little use: K-pop#Popularity_and_impact is the place for that. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 19:13, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: what is the use of having this article at all, if it only lists tours that have their own article? It's pointless then. That's what categories are for: categorizing existing pages into list format. We don't need to have this article then, we can just create a category with the same name and categorize the existing tour/concert articles. A concert can be notable even if it doesn't have its own article. All you need is sources to back it up. It's useless to maintain this article if it doesn't have all concerts held listed. What is it good for then? What information will anyone learn from it? That out of 100 concerts held outside Asia 10 have their own articles on enwiki? It's like creating a page for List of Nobel-prized physicists and then not including those people who don't have an article. Not having an article does not mean it would never have its own article. It looks to me that enwiki looks at topics that cpould be possible red links as if they were the plague. Let me remind you that this encyclopedia will never be complete and red links (unwritten articles) is what drives the growth of this bloody project. 10 years ago 90% of links in articles were red. Kpop is still an underrepresented topic in Wikipedia. many articles are not written yet. It doesn't mean things are not notable. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 21:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

No, this is not correct: it is long-established convention, for better or for worse, that the reader can benefit from having a list article as well as the categories. The comparison with Nobel winners is invalid because Nobel winners are inherently notable; that obviously does not work for concerts/tours, K-pop or J-pop or whatever. And K-pop is not underrepresented; I don't know where you got that idea from. Jazz is underrepresented, as is world music, as is early 20th-century American blues, as is the folk music of every single country in the world and the non-English pop music of almost every country in the world: K-pop is not underrepresented. I don't know if you can look at List of South Korean idol groups (2010s) or List of individual K-pop artists and repeat that, with a straight face.

Again, though, the question what sort of criterion you will have for inclusion, and I repeat, if you have none (besides "a reference that said it happened" or something like that) then you can start including every single concert ever. It's pretty clear that we don't want that in Wikipedia as a whole, and the K-pop field should be no exception. Now, if you want to make something a red link, you can, and I have no problem with it, but you've kind of given yourself the moral obligation to write up the article and make it viable, since you are clearly suggesting "this deserves an article". But if there is no criterion, I'm going to try and draw up a list of every single Claw Boys Claw concert ever played--I think the first time I saw them play was in 1984. What would be the point of that? And what about listing every single show ever played by Status Quo (band)? They've been playing since 1962. But that's not what an encyclopedia ought to do, in my opinion. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting Drmies and Teemeah, and more food for thought.

I am asking, too, how we determine what goes and what stays; and more importantly, what may be added in the future. If there is no set "easilly understandable criteria" such as keeping only concert/tours that have a WP page of their own, and, subsequently deleting all concert/tours that do not have a WP page of their own - then the ground becomes a little shaky. And it then appears to be left to a personal preference or subjective choice of the editor/administrator who is making the deletions, who declares their ability to determine "notability" by themselves, without a consensus.

Drmies's edits kept 61 total concert/tours, and 20 of those are concert/tours that do not have their own WP pages, or approximately 30 percent. (I do not have a count of the ones deleted.) So 20 of the ones kept may have been based on subjective criteria, by the editor. And, some of the 20 kept do not document the entire tour, just the dates that Drmies decided not to "cut", as stated.

I personally added some of those concert/tours which were left on the list - but even if you asked me which of the ones I would have weeded out, as Drmies did, I may have argued with myself - do I keep the single concert date for lesser known M.Pire, at a Hawaiian Korean festival, which has no page of it's own? Or would I like to trade it and keep that historical 1st time Guatemala concert for Lunafly which was part of a larger tour; or maybe trade M.Pire in for a concert I didn't add, like very popular F.T. Island's "FTHX Live in Paris" that just happened on January 16, 2015, and may have a page of it's own later.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:32, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies and Teemeah, and all concerned: The following is the List of Deleted concerts/tours (from prior Revisions as of January 30) I hope I did not make any mistakes. Perhaps we could re-examine them and discuss whether they were worthy of deletions or re-submission on the List? I am willing to search for any sources/references for missing ones that can be re-submitted.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 03:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Bonnielou2013, I'm not sure what I was supposed to have left arbitrarily or otherwise--I think what you were looking at were the years I hadn't gotten to. One bluelink there, a Music Bank thing, may have been removed accidentally. The other is a "showcase" which doesn't go to its own article, but to a subsection of the main article. What I hope we are not forgetting is that one of the main uses for a list article is navigation--in other words, certainly it's more important to have an article on a notable thing than a mention of a notable thing. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies You say you are editing all the years, and excluding all red link concerts/tours? It was hard to guess this, as you must have edited 2003-2009, 2010, 2011, then you skipped 2012 and 2013, then edited 2014 and 2015. Excuse me if I did not follow this properly and based questions on what seemed to be your final edits. Firstly, being newer to WP than you and Teemeah, I must ask questions about where we go from here? Secondly, I will convey directly to you what my best case scenarios are, relative to the page, and, in this order of preference:

• 1) I wish that we may have a VOTE or some consensus, from a number of editors that are interested in this topic on what happens.
• 2) I wish to keep all Deleted concerts/tours on this page.
• 3) If all red-linked deletions are your final goal, and you are the final say on this matter - I wish that you would only delete all U.S.A. concerts/tours, as I will agree, that as English speakers, if we haven't produced a WP page already for that concert/tour, then it does not need to be here. But, as all Deleted concerts outside the U.S.A. had little chance of being included on en:WP, then I beg that they alone please be re-added, or left on this List (again with the offer that I will find matching sources/references).
• 4) If you are the final decider of all this, and your intentions are to Delete all red linked concerts/tours - then I agree with Teemeah, put this List out of it's misery, Delete the page and add the same named category for all the concert/tours on the List that already have WP pages. Why beat a dead horse.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 06:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• 5) If this List remains, you may add a note or explanation that it only includes concerts/tours that already have existing WP pages, to avoid confusion.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 07:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I am not some sole decider, I am merely telling you what good editing suggests, and what consensus on Wikipedia suggests. I also don't think I am the one beating any horse, dead or alive. I don't know what you mean with "red-linked deletions". I'll say one more time, such lists typically have entries that have Wikipedia articles, and I note, in passing, that you don't seem to take into account any of the arguments I presented. That "allowing everything" means "allowing everything" is a serious problem which you do not seem to recognize. Drmies (talk) 20:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies you misunderstood, my allusion was to me, it's me that would be beating a dead horse. I thought the nickname for the deleted concert/tours without pages was "red-linked deletions" - sorry if I used wrong wording. And, I did "hear" your arguments, I honor them as WP tradition, but I don't totally agree with them. I have offered a variety of ways that we might meet half-way, if everyone agreed to any of my suggestions. I can't do any more than that. This page was created in 2012, and only picked up views (if the purpose of WP is to get views) with recent additions and interest in the page. I yield to you and Teemeah for further discussion.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 21:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, Teemeah - before I yield. I have been trusting Drmies references to what is traditional, standard, or acceptable on WP, since I'm a year-old newbie. I have just looked at Lists in WP and the first one I pulled up is List of aircraft (0-A) and am observing many (please don't ask me to count them and give a percentage) Red-linked articles listed. I don't think I have to look at many more lists, but can, for comparisons sake, to show that WP does have many lists of perfectly normal things (like aircraft), that are not lists of "just things that have a page for them." So, now I have a basis for saying that retaining these Deleted Red-linked concert/tours is not aberrant.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 22:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Here's one more for good measure List of Pakistani Punjabi-language films--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 22:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Really, this is just a list of K-Pop concerts - like the Pakistani Punjabi-language films that are adored by thousands of fans! As SHINee says, Why So Serious? - love you guys!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 22:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC) This page is really bright List of places in East Lothian! I'm not having trouble finding loads of "exceptions". Per Drmies above, "Convention is that in such articles things are listed that have articles. You'll find articles that don't follow that convention, but I believe those to be exceptions." -still loving you and don't forget that for one minute!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the major problem here is that I do not see based on what reasoning Drmies deleted these concerts. What is your criteria of K-pop concert notability? JYJ's worldwide tour is not something I would call insignificant, especially concerning their status back then as outcasts from the scandal. I repeat that not having its own article doesn't mean somethign is not notable. It just means that nobody wrote the artice yet. For example, hu:Mészöly Gedeon is a very famous Hungarian linguist. He doesn't have an article on enwiki. So by your reasoning he would not be included in the List of Hungarian linguists, if it existed, even though he is notable. This is not encyclopedia writing then. This is just some "let's compile incomplete lists nobody can use for anything"....Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 11:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Teemeah, I lost your comment down here. Yes I cringed when I saw JYJ on the deleted list, they've been shit-canned so much, I had to remind myself that Drmies hadn't singled them out. hahaha... At least we have some levity in all this. Yes, they are notable, and so are many others on the deleted List. I agree with you, and have been saying it as passively as possible - I don't have any problem with all these deleted concerts being re-added to the List. We can continue to deal with the "enthusiastic" changes made by non-WP users - like the adding on of future concerts, redundant "Various" artists added (even when the concert has a separate page) and all the usual edits that come up on any page.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 18:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• First of all, I scrapped this list: it serves no purpose other than to mess up the page, and it was copied here without proper attribution. Second, you all need to look at WP:GNG, which is what decides on notability. It his highly likely that famous linguists are notable per our standards. It is highly unlikely that any old concert is notable by our standards. It is possible that a tour is notable by our standards, as long as it meets the GNG, and WP:NTOUR explains that more: that it happened is not enough. That JYJ is notable doesn't mean every show they ever did is notable: see WP:FART. Once more, for the last time, if there is no standard for inclusion there is no standard for exclusion and there is no way in which this list does not become a complete listing of every single K-pop concert ever outside of Asia. Y'all's "redlink" argument is a red herring: a redlink means "this could get notable", and so you can go ahead and redlink everything you like, but that has to be done within reason and with an eye on the GNG. Shinyang-i, I feel like I'm repeating myself. Love you too. Don't forget about Wikia. Drmies (talk) 23:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you still miss the point in what I what I wanted to convey with the red links. Not having its own article will not make a tour non-notable. Also, not having English language sources won't make a tour non-notable. The requirement is to have independent sources that cover it extensively. There are plenty of Korean language sources covering these tours beyond just reporting about their existence. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 08:20, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

So Drmies, Teemeah, Thanks D for deleting the list - I think we have it memorized now.... so Where Do We Go from Here? hugs,--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

To answer your question, I think we should add those tours back that are notable, that are covered in the media extensively beyond their existence. We have to present the sources of course. The rest, where coverage is only about announcement of the concert or some short report that it was done, can be left out. People here love to throw these abbreviations in editors' face, so here it is: WP:NTOUR: Concert tours are notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Such coverage might show notability in terms of artistic approach, financial success, relationship to audience, or other such terms. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 08:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not throwing anything in anyone's face: it was a blue link you could click on. Drmies (talk) 20:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the way of overusing references to "rules", Everything is a WP: abbreviation and that's all you care about. No real discussion just "read this", "read that". Rules are one thing, this obsession with the letters of the rules is another. So there you go, @Drmies:, WP:IAR for your pleasure. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 22:20, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

IAR applies only if the encyclopedia is improved. Drmies (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Teemeah, I will be withdrawing from this discussion. Although I agree with all you say, I would like to continue with other articles and work on WP in a friendly manner. Yesterday, just 2 minutes after responding to me on this discussion, Drmies viewed and edited another article I created, K-Pop Night Out at SXSW, adding new columns to the Ref. list., then he went immediately to an image reviewer's talk page to report a supposed violation of WP policy on an image, on that same page. The image had already received approval of licensing rationale by other Administrators. Today it was Listed for Deletion, and he went back to the article page and deleted the image, even before I could respond, and before a final determination that the jpeg image was to be removed, and the JPEG image was not already deleted, per WP policy. I have never seen Drmies look at any of my work previously, and could only think that the review was deliberate.

I would like to give my opinions on topics, but if I will be stalked or harassed for participating, (just like news media reports of WP say happens to many newer editors) - then I will withdraw from this discussion. I have been very silent my entire year on WP, and will go back to "mute" in order to just try to hang in here - and continue liking what I do. Thank you Teemeah!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 19:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• There is no proof of any prior approval. I think you should be pleased that Wikipedia is not hosting this copyright violation. And note that I didn't delete anything--I just removed it from that article. Part of playing here is playing by the rules, and I resent your implications. You are not being oppressed. And I'll tell you something else: your constant pinging me is off-putting--I could call that harassment as well. If you got nothing new to say, don't ping me anymore. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 20:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, I think your leaving this discussion yesterday and rushing to a page I created, K-Pop Night Out at SXSW, then reporting the image licensing (instead of Talking to me about it), is fairly transparent of an attempt to harrass me. I am only slightly daunted by this.

However, I am more concerned with an evasive over-all atmosphere of snide remarks and disdain about K-Pop and K-Pop editors, coming from editors/administrators like yourself. When you told Stefan2, on his Talk page, about the image (and Stefan2 has been nothing but kind and understanding to me about my various image uploads) you called the page K-Pop Night Out at SXSW a ("showcase" in K-speak). Is this idiom a code word for Korean language articles, or for K-Pop articles, or what? It sounds like a "slur" to me.

I would like to apologize to Teemeah and all who have shown interest in this page List of K-Pop concerts held outside Asia, as I also had the page listed on my User page as a page I was interested in. I believe that your interest in dismantling this page, also, to be targeted at me. I know why, and so do you - it's old history and didn't really involve you.

But, Drmies, I am still smiling, hey...that's just me. I may take back a little love I offered you yesterday ("it was but an illustion, I fear"), and I won't agree to be an S&M playmate - you know I don't even do self-flagellation, so you know the heavier S&M and group involvement, is definitely out of my league. I'm back to "mute" - enjoy!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:01, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Korean" is also not being oppressed. K-pop has its own language, and denying that is silly. Showcase, comeback, visual--that sort of stuff. Since "showcase" is a word in English, "K-speak" can't be a slur against the Korean language: it's shorthand for "the terminology used in K-pop and K-pop marketing". I would be kind and understanding to you too if you didn't constantly seek to twist my words (you're not the only person trying to make me out as a racist for trying to keep fancruft away from Wikipedia--maybe you should start a Facebook group too), and if you weren't so obviously avoiding my arguments. And please don't make S&M references here: it's in poor taste, and might be construed as sexual harassment. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

(ASIDE FROM THE NON-RELATED DISCUSSION THAT DRMIES AND I HAVE JUST HAD)

Again, it seems the discussion is at an impasse - at this point, I will weigh in as agreeing with Teemeah's suggestion, of leaving all concerts and allowing some period of time for interested editors to find sources and references. Then Drmies or anyone else may do a comprehensive review or clean-up.

I agree with Drmies that the page was getting out-of-hand with (future dates), (country flags), (various artists listed for pages that existed and already listed them). However, I think that the attention that these additions generated also caused an increased viewership. So, as Teemeah has said before - do we want a "perfect" page, rarely viewed, which sticks more closely to WP rules and regulations, than even general subject pages do, to prove that K-Pop is edited perfectly? Or do we want to compromise, by allowing a relaxing of those rules (like the many exceptions that we can find on current WP List pages - where red-linked articles are also listed.)

As a User that has not conversed a lot on Talk pages, I'm learning a lot in this discussion (about brackets around names causing pinging), and about (red-linked titles meaning that the editor suggests that this reference may be deserving of a page of it's own). Previously, I thought the red-links were done by mistake to a non-existent page, and had been taking the brackets off.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

concets missing from the list!

There's heaps of concerts missing from the list. B1A4's RoadTrip tour in Australia and America to name one. Also Rain,NU'EST,CNBLUE,SHINee.4Minute,B.A.P, have had concerts in Sydney and/or Melbourne too. There was also the K-POP Music Festival with 12 various artists in Sydney. Last thing is I'm not sure if he counts as kpop but Sungha Jung recently came to Melbourne and Australia for a concert. I'm sure even with these there'd be more missing.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khaing1193 (talk • contribs) 12:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC) Also, KTMF is missing.

And sorry, I messed up something with the placement that I don't know how to fix. Please help a Wiki newbie.. -UNIVERSALFIXER

Background

I have one suggestion for this article. I see that you mentioned 'Korean Wave' in the article. You should mention a bit about the background or the word Hallyu in the text. For example, "During the Korean Wave (Hallyu)....". You can do something like that. As for the history, it can briefly be mentioned. For example, "The word Hallyu first originated in China during 1999 by journalists that were surprised how fast it spread in China".

I've also added a reference so you can go back to it. I'm going to add this in the article and you can make any changes after that.

References

NCT world tour

NCT 127 is also having a world tour right now so i was wondering if anyoen can add it to the list? CVILIANS (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC)