Talk:List of Kurdish dynasties and countries

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Andzevatsi[edit]

Please adding Andzevatsi state which was a dynasty of Kurdish ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilok27 (talk • contribs) 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Former dynasties, at a time when Kurdish identity is not firmly attested, described as Kurdish by some modern sources[edit]

  1. ^ Karl Müller, Klaudiou Ptolemaiou Geographike hyphegesis, 1. cilt, 2. bölüm, Alfredo Firmin Didot, 2012, ISBN 124-999-259-1, s.947
  2. ^ Revue des études arméniennes, böl.21, 1988-1989, s.281, By Société des études armeniennes, Fundação Calouste Gulbenkian, Published by Imprimerie nationale, P. Geuthner, 1989.
  3. ^ N. Maxoudian, "Early Armenia as an Empire: The Career of Tigranes III, 95–55 BC", Journal of the Royal Central Asian Society, Vol. 39, Issue 2, Nisan 1952, s. 156–63.
  4. ^ Ilya Gershevitch, William Bayne Fisher, The Cambridge History of Iran: The Median and Achaemenian Periods, s.964., Cambridge University Press, 1985, ISBN 0-521-20091-1
  5. ^ Rawlinson, George, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World, Böl. 7, 1871.
  6. ^ Grässe, J. G. Th. (1909) [1861]. Orbis latinus; oder, Verzeichnis der wichtigsten lateinischen orts- und ländernamen (Almanca) (2nd bas.). Berlin: Schmidt. OCLC 1301238
  7. ^ David McDowall, A modern history of the Kurds, s.515 ., I.B.Tauris, 2004, ISBN 1-85043-416-6
  8. ^ Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East[1]
  9. ^ Izady, Mehrdad R. A Handbook of Kurds, pp. 94-9.
  10. ^ J. Limbert. (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1.2: ss. 41-51.
  11. ^ G. Asatrian. (2009). Prolegemona to the Study of Kurds. Iran and the Caucasus, 13.1: ss. 1-58.
  12. ^ James, Boris. (2006). Uses and Values of the Term Kurd in Arabic Medieval Literary Sources. Seminar at the American University of Beirut, ss. 4, 8, 9.
  13. ^ James, Boris. (2006). Uses and Values of the Term Kurd in Arabic Medieval Literary Sources. Seminar at the American University of Beirut, ss. 6-7.

Safavid dynasty.[edit]

The Safavids were of Kurdish Origin. https://iranicaonline.org/articles/iran-ix23-shiism-in-iran-since-the-safavids

Woudnt be it good to include them also? They were Pro Iranian, and we all know that Kurds are also Iranic people. KurdîmHeval (talk) 12:14, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Culturally they were Turkic. 46.114.110.239 (talk) 21:47, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wait for an anwer KurdîmHeval (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You've already been answered multiple times several places (including my talk page). If you continue this disruptive pattern you will be reported (again). --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hamdanid dynasty[edit]

Hello @HistoryofIran, I find it questionable why you undid my edit.


After all, it is about other dynasties of Kurdish origin. Dynasties and empires were all more religiously oriented back then, so to speak, today nobody can claim this or that for themselves as long as the 100 percent confirmation does not appear. So you shouldn't call the Rum Seljuks Turkish, they spoke Persian and lived in Persian culture.


The point is that the Hamdanids intermarried with Kurdish dignitaries to maintain their connection with the Kurdish tribes east of them. I think this is very relevant and fits perfectly into the "Other dynasties of Kurdish descent" section. - Best regards! Weşanvan (talk) 01:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is named "List of Kurdish dynasties and countries", starting to put non-Kurdish dynasties because they intermarried with other ethnicities is frankly WP:TENDENTIOUS territory. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran, Well, according to the fact that the Hamdanids did not have Kurdish blood in the family in the distant sense, but the rulers personally, it can be assumed that Kurdish was spoken in the dynasty house, i.e. that Kurdish armies were also present in the front of the Hamdanids, as well That a manifestation of Kurdish culture was present in the dynasty house thus, do not believe that the Kurdish dignitaries were puppets which did not contribute any part to the Kurdish identity in the Hamdanid house.
Likewise, calling the Hamdanids "Arabic" as a nation-dynasty is incorrect. Ultimately it was a Shia dynasty in northern Mesopotamia and the Levant. As I said, it is under the "Other dynasties of Kurdish ancestry" section. Unfortunately, I still don't feel comfortable with your reasoning. - Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 02:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Wikipedia we follow WP:RS, not the assumptions/deductions of users. Moreover, you are contradicting yourself, if ethnicity does not matter, then what are they doing in an article called "List of Kurdish dynasties and countries"? Why do we even have an article called that? See also WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @HistoryofIran,
Quite simply, these articles pertain to the array of dynasties of Kurdish identity that the Hamdanids had as evidenced Kurdish identities, so I still find it questionable not including them in this list under the heading "Other dynasties of Kurdish origin", which is not a conclusion of mine Page off, it would be justified to mention you here, unfortunately I don't understand what you are sending me for links, the guidelines have not been broken here, I can read this.
Again: This article means dynasties that have developed a Kurdish identity, as mentioned above and in the article I also had this in the source, that the Hamdanids married Kurdish dignitaries, not just that they were "Kurds" there is, but also culturally arranged to establish good chemistry with the Kurdish tribes in the east. Find it very relevant and worth mentioning in the article. - Best regards.
Weşanvan (talk) 12:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The "Other dynasties of Kurdish ancestry" section should also get removed, it's just a door way to WP:TENDENTIOUS editing.
This article means dynasties that have developed a Kurdish identity, as mentioned above and in the article I also had this in the source, that the Hamdanids married Kurdish dignitaries, not just that they were "Kurds" there is, but also culturally arranged to establish good chemistry with the Kurdish tribes in the east. Find it very relevant and worth mentioning in the article.
You've already said this (WP:REHASH), and I've already replied to it. Let me rephrase my reply: Do you have a source that supports that the Hamdanids adopted a Kurdish identity? If you do, then please post a quote and its page from the source that says that. If not, please see WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:OR. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @HistoryofIran,
A source which describes kurdish and arab armies of the Hamdanids: https://www.academia.edu/21393386/Hamdanids_and_Kurds
I don't know if you speak turkish, go into the source, scroll down a little until you see a page with the heading (kürtler), here you can see that next to the marriage with kurdish dignitaries in the other sources, this is described here Kurdish and Arab fronts formed under the Hamdanids. All these points also contribute to the fact that the Kurdish language also played a role in the dynasty, and a Kurdish identity was definitely present. - Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 14:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran, I don't think the section "Other dynasties of Kurdish ancestry" is a bad idea, it shows that their were also Kurds who played a role in history from other regions as well. - Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 14:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you have no source which states that, it's just your own conclusion. Moreover, I'm not sure if that source is even WP:RS per WP:SPS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @HistoryofIran,
I don't understand this at the moment, so what does it look like, don't think there would be anything against it here? I have given the source and also 2 sources in the article which confirm my statements, do not understand the circumstance.
- Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but what is it you “don’t understand”? That you’re only allowed to add what a WP:RS states? HistoryofIran (talk) 22:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @HistoryofIran,
I'm asking because I think this source is justified enough and doesn't hurt Wikipedia guidelines, there are many of these sources distributed on Wikipedia. This source is independent or neutral, it is described exactly what I emphasize in the source, I do not understand that. Weşanvan (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran, PS: The source is no harm to Wikipedia after I've looked it up, with all due respect, their is nothing in the way anymore, thanks. - Best regards Weşanvan (talk) 22:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's simple. We add what WP:RS says, we don't add our own conclusions based of what we've read. If you can't show a quote from a WP:RS which supports that they adopted a Kurdish identity and culture, don't add it, otherwise it is just POV pushing. I think we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @HistoryofIran,
again, this source conforms to Wikipedia's guidelines. so for first, this point is settled.
Next: I am now quoting excerpts from the source in the original Turkish language, then with Google translate for you in English. PS:These are only small sections of many which confirm my statement, for more confirmation I ask for self-reading.
Turkish (Source original language):
Kürtler ile yapilan savaglar digindan Hamdâni ve Kürtler arasinda evlilik yolu ile akrabalk dahi kurulmustur.
Hamdânì emiri Nasruddevle evlilik yoluyla Kürtlerle akrabahk kurmustur. Bu cümleden Fatima bt.
Ahmed el-Kürdi ile evlenen Nâsruddevle'nin bu kadindan Ebû Taglib
Gazanfer adinda kendisinden sonra Musul emirligine geçecek olan oglu dünyaya gelmistir. Muhtemelen bu sebepten dolayi yazarlar ta-
rafindan Hamdânîler bir Kürt devleti olarak kabul edilmektedirler.
English:
Apart from the wars with the Kurds, even kinship was established between Hamdani and the Kurds through marriage. He established kinship with the Kurds through marriage with the Emir of Hamdani, Nasruddev. From this sentence Fatima bt.
Abu Taglib was one of the women of Nâsruddevle who married Ahmed al-Kurdi.
His son named Gazanfer, who would pass to Mosul emirate after him, was born. Probably for this reason many authors describe
the Hamdanids are accepted as a Kurdish state.
See: Page 124 - 125.
For further Confirmation:
  1. Miskeveyh, V, 441-442.
  2. Tori, Kürtlerin Ortaçag ve Yeniçag Tarihi, Istanbul 2000, s. 81.
— Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 00:52, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Always the most obscure, inaccessible books in non-English to push an opinion not even remotely supported by high-quality WP:RS. Please see WP:VER, WP:SPS, WP:PST (Miskeveyh), WP:WEIGHT and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I quoted you that, does it have to be in the original English language?
This book "Kürtler" was named by 2 Turkish professors and authors: Prof. Dr. Adnan Demircan and Doc. dr Mehmet Akbaş. As a non-historian, do you now want to speak out against this and declare this to be absurd?
And the accusation that this source does not comply with the Wikipedia guidelines is wrong, colleague, I have read everything you sent me, nothing speaks against me or my source.
You're giving me a bit of a strange impression, on your user page it says that you're not afraid to let go of arguments, now let's go on a more correct path, we're both better off that way, lets come to an fair end. - Best regards. Weşanvan (talk) 01:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you didn't read the guidelines, specifically WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:SPS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran,
It is an academic report and a book written by 2 professors. It‘s a normal source. I‘ve read it already. Weşanvan (talk) 01:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I'm not going to sit and read those two rules out loud for you, WP:COMPETENCE is required. Let me show you some actual WP:RS, which took me barely 5 minutes to find:
  1. "The Hamdanids are an Arab (i.e., Bedouin but nomadic) family from the Banu Taghlib tribe that has been recorded in the Djazira since pre-Islamic times. Although initially Bedouin, the Hamdanids established an urban regime."" - page 312., Yehoshua Frenkel, Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1, Routledge
  2. "In some of these, the Arabs retained their old primacy. One family who did so were the Hamdanids, prominent in northern Iraq and northern Syria for much of the tenth century. - page 331, Arabs: A 3,000-Year History of Peoples, Tribes and Empires," Tim Mackintosh-Smith, Yale University Press
  3. "Hamdanids Arab' nomadic Shii clan that undermined Abbasid rule from Mesoptamia (905-991)." - page 107, The Oxford Dictionary of Islam, John L. Esposito, Oxford University Press,
  4. "The Hamdanids came from the Arab tribe of Taghlib..[..]...the Hamdanids tended to follow the Shī'ī inclinations..." page 85, Bosworth, C.E. (1996). The New Islamic Dynasties. Columbia University Press.
  5. "Ḥamdānids , Tag̲h̲libī Arab family which, in the 4th/10th century, provided two minor dynasties, which arose, owing to the decadence of the ʿAbbāsid caliphate, in Mesopotamia or D̲j̲azīra (Mosul) and in Syria (Aleppo), and whose most distinguished representative was the amīr of Aleppo, Sayf al-Dawla.", Ḥamdānids, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, Brill
  6. "The Hamdanids were from the Arab tribe of Taghlib in the Jazira. For most of the tenth century they established their rule semi-independently from the 'Abbasids, first in Mosul and parts of the Jazira from 905." - page 85, Queens, Eunuchs and Concubines in Islamic History, 661-1257, Edinburgh University Press
  7. "The Hamdanids were drawn from the Banu Taghlib, a tribe which had grazed the Jazcra area since pre-Islamic times. - page 265, Kennedy, Hugh (2004). The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates: The Islamic Near East from the 6th to the 11th Century. Fourth edition is published by Routledge, says it all.
  8. "In the north-western corner of their domains the Buyids had a difficult problem, the troubled and troublesome Hamdanids. These Kharijites turned Shi'ites were as divided in their loyalties as they were amongst themselves. Their interests were more involved with the Byzantines than with their fellow Muslims. These native Arab chieftains had less support from their fellow Arabs than from the conglomeration of races in the region, including the Greeks." - page 169, Islamic History A New Interpretation, Cambridge University Press
  9. "It is astonishing how soon the Arabs fade out of Muslim history, Arabia itself excepted. There are notable instances to the contrary like the Hamdanids and the Banu Hilal, but they are few." - page 567, The Tribes of Syria in the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries, Cambridge University Press
I think you should WP:DROPTHESTICK. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran,
No I don't think so yet, funny but there are links on Wikipedia like what you recommended me to do after citing your sources.
But what you have noticed is that I have not argued against the Hamdanids being of Arabic origin initially, my source as well as the one I added in the Hamdanids article simply confirms the assumption of Kurdish identity, so sending this source is in this one conversation powerless. Again: "The Hamdanids were a dynasty of Arab origin who intermarried with Kurdish dignitaries and adopted Kurdish culture, if along with Arabic culture, in order to improve their relationship with the Kurds in the east, aiming for to stay a powerful Shia empire in northern Mesopotamia and the Levant.“ Have given you under my message where I quoted the source also 2 other sources including confirming this. Think there is still time for nothing but a straight factual way.
Weşanvan (talk) 02:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, none of the nine sources mention anything about them becoming Kurds, you would have thought they would have mentioned such as an important "fact"? Maybe because it's not supported in actual scholarship. I think this discussion is over, I think you should take some time reading our rules, bests. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran, It doesn't work that way, you only have the beginnings of these sources and the sections where the original origins of the Hamdanids are claimed, so we don't get to a point. I think that I have documented this quite well and that this discussion is for me.
PS: Simply using it as an argument that it doesn't seem to be important doesn't work, this is a very simple curtain over the real facts. I think the discussion is for me positive over, but I am waiting on your reply. Weşanvan (talk) 02:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. The sources-no matter what page-don't mention a single bit of them becoming Kurdish at all, zero, nada. And please stop pinging me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for pinging I did not know that disturbs you.
Of course, not the sources that focus on the whole Arabic history, but those that basically only deal with the Hamdanids, these sources mention Kurdishness. I believe it is time for acceptance my Iranian friend… ;) Weşanvan (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, how does it look, Source reliable being exist. It is a fact you might not knew by your self, which does not matter at all. This Source, quote of a Book which also orienteers on 2 other sources which confirm that the Hamdanids can be accepted as a Kurdish state or as a Dynasty with kurdish origin‘s, or a dynasty with kurdish identity and Cultural livings. - Thanks. Weşanvan (talk) 13:05, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My last comment here, unless you actually bring WP:RS up: You are very quick to make observations (or rather, excuses) on 9 sources which you didn't even take a look at. Let's pretend that they're actually "whole Arabic history" sources (whatever that's supposed to mean) then I guess that makes it illegal for them to mention anything else than Arabs? That would be nonsense. And no, repeating yourself (WP:REHASH), spamming this talk page isn't gonna make your case any less weaker. And don't refer to me by background again, I have a username. The fact you say "I believe it is time for acceptance" says it all. If you continue disregarding our rules, you will be reported to WP:ANI for WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, to clarify, it was not my intention to address you personally about your origins, I said this because, as a Kurd, I also belong to the Iranian peoples, but unfortunately I just don't know my way around that well. Hope you don't feel offended, discussion closed. Weşanvan (talk) 00:15, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can’t we add a section about before Islam one[edit]

Some states were believed to be ancestors of Kurds before Islam. Barabara201 (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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