Talk:List of Latin phrases (P)
|WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome||(Rated List-class, Low-importance)|
|WikiProject Latin||(Rated List-class, Low-importance)|
|This page was nominated for deletion on 2007-02-02. The result of the discussion was Keep.|
|This page was nominated for deletion on 2 April 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.|
- 1 Virtus in media stat
- 2 Remerge proposal
- 3 Dog Latin
- 4 Sursum Corda
- 5 Technica Impendi Nationi
- 6 Qui Prodest
- 7 'Sensu strictu' or 'Sensu stricto' or 'Stricto sensu'
- 8 Post partum
- 9 Abbreviations
- 10 Scire quod sciendum
- 11 Refrescumne?
- 12 para bellum =/= for war
- 13 Removed "Pre prandial"
- 14 Pronunciation
- 15 Quamdiu Bene Gesserit
- 16 Vice Versa
- 17 Charles Napier
- 18 post coitus
- 19 Orbis Terrarum
- 20 quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
- 21 pace
- 22 2008-03-29 Automated pywikipediabot message
- 23 perge modo
- 24 per se
Virtus in media stat
I posted this but there's a bit of uncertainty on my part. The uncertainty in reference to the case ending of media/medio. I have found both out on the net. I was taught media...50 years ago. So, I'm a little concerned about memory corruption and I don't have access to my books at this time. Feel free to fix it if it requires fixing. Begs (talk) 05:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This page has the quote "vi veNi universum vivus vici,"but "vi veRi universum vivus vici" seems correct and is the form most often given on other web pages. Also, there seems to be uncertainty about its origins. We all know it's in the movie V for Vendetta, but does it come from Goethe or Marlowe? This page says Marlowe. Many other web pages say Goethe. I've not yet found a web page that gives the exact citation: act, scene, perhaps even line number.Interlingua 14:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Is sola lingua bona lingua mortua really Dog Latin? Granted it's not an ancient expression, granted it's not the most idiomatic phrasing, but normally I think of "Dog Latin" as being more like solus linguisticus benus est mortis or something the like. THis is real Latin words, and real Latin grammar.
As for whether or not Dog Latin/Mock Latin/Latinitas Culinaria phrases should be in this list, surprisingly I think they should stay, but be strongly and plainly marked as such. Why? Because the list is not necessarily intended for people who already speak Latin. The problem with Mock Latin is that people often spread the joke without "getting" it. How many people, apparently, think that Illegitimis Nil Carborundum or Semper Ubi Sub Ubi is real Latin? They should be able to look them up on the relevant page and find out the truth.
We used to have such phrases in their own section, which made sense at the time. Now (given that we have broken this up into smaller pages, then created a master page that combines them like templates) I'm not so sure that would work. --Iustinus 16:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- I thought about the lookup issue. My first idea was to put a (templated) message on top of the page along the lines of: "You may be looking for a moch Latin phrase. --Gennaro Prota 17:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- All mock, garbled, dog, pseudo-, etc. Latin should be listed just like the normal Latin, but with the comments clearly noting that it's not a true Latin phrase. We already have a large number of such phrases in any cases, like "Busiris", and simply leave them untranslated to make it clear that they mean nothing (or mean nonsense) in Latin. -Silence 12:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
- Silence, what do you think of setting a different background color for such phrases? That would be a nice way to separate them out. --Iustinus 17:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps. I'm not sure it's necessary, and sometimes phrases are "borderline dog latin", such as phrases with proper grammar but fabricated vocabulary, or ones which do have a meaning in Latin, but not the one intended by the originator. But I don't mind the idea in general of using unobtrusive background colors for some phrases, if we end up deciding on an important distinguishing trait that'd work well with that. -Silence 17:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Point taken. We'll have to consider that. It's probably a good idea to mull that over in any case. I for one would generally still count Medieval Latin as "real", even if it contains non-classical words. --Iustinus 23:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but complications arise when we try to draw the line between new Latin words that constitute "real Latin" and new Latin words that constitute "dog Latin"; the distinction is often arbitrary, as in both cases such vocabulary words often have illegitimate or dubious histories, frequently are borrowed from non-Italic/Romance (even non-Indo-European) languages, are vulgar or bizarre, etc. There's nothing new to that; only the distancing effect of posterity has caused us to view Medieval Latin as "real" while modern quasi-Latin is "fake", when in reality many modern dog Latin phrases are many times more well-written (i.e., more in the classical style) than much of that Medieval hogwash. :) In the end, it's just too tricky a distinction to make; even distinguishing between humorous and non-humorous Latin phrases is a major task, and, like distinguishing "dog Latin" from "real Latin", risks heavily POVing the list with uncited prescriptivism. But I agree with you that it's a very good thing for us to think about and muddle over. -Silence 01:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
up the hearth
Technica Impendi Nationi
- technica impendi nationi||"Technology impulses nations"||Motto of Polytechnical University of Madrid
What? I can't construe the Latin, nor am I sure what "impulses" means (perhaps "impells"?) --Iustinus 02:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I was about to delete the recently added qui prodest, assuming it was a mistake similar to qui bono, but I note that it gets a huge number of google hits, and it is conceivable that it is not incorrect: this could be the other quî that means "how." Anyone know anything about this phrase? --Iustinus 17:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I added that phrase, because I`ve used for a long time, and I`ve never guesses that it might by spurious. I don`t speak latin however, and I guess that you may be right (check the saying Beatus, qui prodest, quibus potest, meaning "who is lucky the one who gets an advantage"). AdoniCtistai 19:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
'Sensu strictu' or 'Sensu stricto' or 'Stricto sensu'
I came across this in a journal article. It doesn't seem to be widely used, and I don't know enough to tell whether the grammar is correct. (See http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/the_di_and_the_astonishingly_t.php.) Antonym is apparently 'sensu largo'. ...Actually, it seems to be more popular in German: even the article I read was written (in English) by a German. 220.127.116.11 07:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have come across a published instance of 'sensu stricto' now, apparently authored by native English speakers (although in the context of citing an Austrian). However, the only entry in the list is 'stricto sensu', which I have not encountered elsewhere. 18.104.22.168 07:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, the OED has the main entry at "sensu stricto", with a brief entry at "stricto sensu". The latter entry states explicitly that "strictu sensu" is erroneous ...although there is no mention of "sensu strictu". I think I can trust the OED enough to add "sensu stricto" to the list. 22.214.171.124 06:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am a biologist, not a linguist. Sensu stricto is widely used in biology, I do not understand why the above users could not find more examples. It is normally invoked after it has been realized that what was traditionally considered to be a single species in reality comprises a complex of two or more species which are more or less identical in physical appearance (so-called "cryptic species"). In such as case, the name-bearing taxon must necessarily be redefined more narrowly than before. One example is the major malaria vector, the mosquito Anopheles gambiae. Intensive investigations of these mosquitos has gradually uncovered the presence of six morphologically indistinguishable species, some of which differ significantly in (among other biological details) their efficiency as malaria vectors. This means that an author now writes "A. gambiae sensu stricto" to refer to A. gambiae as it is currently understood, and "A. gambiae sensu lato" to refer to the earlier, broader definition of the species (which concept we now know included more than one species). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
And how about adding this?? 188.8.131.52 08:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I am continually irritated by Latin phrases abbreviated (or rather ellipted?) to lose their literal meaning. As in "de facto" — de facto what? "Pro bono" — pro bono whom? et cetera. Whereas de facto can precede many words, if "pro bono" is generally only ever used with "publico", then can't it be listed in full under the 'Latin' column?? And if not, then please enlighten me! 184.108.40.206 09:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
de facto just means that something exists because it exists as a fact of life. For example, in theory in basketball hitting another player is a foul. Clearly, de facto, it is not. de facto refers to something existing as a fact of life. de jure refers to something existing as a fact of law. Parking without feeding the meter is wrong... de jure. It isn't intrinsically evil. Begs (talk) 04:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know much Latin.
- The above phrase I found on the Title Page of a 1920 book by publisher Small, Maynard & Company. Will some please work on the stub I've commenced?
- Thanks, Ludvikus 04:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- It means "to know what ought to be known". 220.127.116.11 06:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone added the following:
- Pimentatis Anus Outrem Refrescum Est||"Pimenta no Cú dos outros é Refresco"||Expressão muito utilizada no jargão popular brasileiro.
This was promptly deleted as fake Latin. Fair enough, but we have a number of other fake Latin phrases, clearly marked as such, on the list. Perhaps if this motto is indeed significant it shoudl be included under that rubric. --Iustinus 21:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
para bellum =/= for war
Para bellum - "for war" - used typically to indicate that something was manufactured for the purpose of war, such as ammunition or armaments. Can be used to denote support or approval for a war or conflict.
"Para" in the sense of "for" may exist in Spanish and Italian, however it does not exist in Latin language. "For war" would be "pro bello" in Latin. 18.104.22.168 18:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Removed "Pre prandial"
This is not a Latin phrase, just an English word of Latinate derivation. Prae prandio would be the correct Latin form if this were an actual Latin phrase. The given translation "before the time before midday" is also incorrect. Prae prandio means "before lunch," not "before midday" (which of course is ante meridiem). 22.214.171.124 07:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There are several differing standards for pronouncing Latin words in English. I can think of three; there may be more. Is it appropriate to insist on one single standard (e.g. "C" always as [k]) in this article? For phrases used in the Roman Catholic Latin mass, for instance, the Italian "soft C" may be the prevailing standard. For some scientific phrases/words, dictionaries prefer the English "soft C". Let's not make sweeping pronouncements [sic] about pronunciation in this article, unless suitable references can be agreed upon (which is unlikeley). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:40, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Quamdiu Bene Gesserit
In Akhil Reed Amar's book, "America's Constitution: A Biography" (p.221), the legal phrase referred to here is spelled "quamdiu SE bene gesseriNt" (differences in caps). Don't know enough Latin or law to know if these are both acceptable alternatives, but a quick Google of "bene gesserit" seems to turn up only references to Frank Herbert's novel, "Dune", while a search for "bene gesserint" returns references to the legal phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure who put in the pronunciation guide to "vice versa," but I've never heard of anyone pronouncing the Vs as Ws. Also, unless I've far missed my mark, Cs followed by Es are pronounced as either "ch." I'm pretty sure the correct pronunciation should be "vee che versa." Any thoughts? Matthearn (talk) 17:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
If the story that he sent the telegram saying "Peccavi" is apocryphal, does that not mean that he didn't actually do it, & therefore the story should read "alleged" &/or "supposed", & "this would have been the most terse telegram", etc.? FlaviaR (talk) 08:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There's now a wiki page on "Peccavi", citing Punch as the author of the expression. Napier was acting against orders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Should this not be 'Theatrum Orbis Terrarum Lars 09:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
certainly the phrase is recent and ironic, but is it correct? Can "altus" mean "deep"/"lofty" in the English metaphorical sense? Alternatives suggested: gravis, summus, profundus, here: http://community.livejournal.com/linguaphiles/3715218.html Orbis 3 (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm all for paring down this list, but I'm not convinced it's modern Italian; see Seneca and at Google. Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
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