Talk:List of National Historic Landmarks in New York

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Former FLC List of National Historic Landmarks in New York is a former featured list candidate. Please view the link under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. Once the objections have been addressed you may resubmit the article for featured list status.
WikiProject National Register of Historic Places (Rated List-class, High-importance)
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WikiProject New York (Rated List-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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To attain Featured List status[edit]

This article is now close to Featured List quality, in my view, and I'd like to work together with others to bring it the rest of the way and get the Featured List star on the page. Criteria for Wikipedia featured lists include that the list must be "useful, comprehensive, factually accurate, stable, uncontroversial and well-constructed". It must also follow Wikipedia Manual of Style, and include images that are appropriate and copyright-status-consistent. doncram 21:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Some of the descriptions are not supported by the articles. Some are clearly written based on the NHL summary for the site, which is no doubt cited in the article, but the article is so stubby that the info is not reflected in the article. Remedy: expand each article as necessary, citing the NHL summary perhaps, to cover all necessary to support its description. Note, it is even better to cite the NRHP document for the site, which is the more primary resource that the NHL summary is based upon. doncram 21:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I am fairly new to Wikipedia and I am interested in this list. In fact, this is my first Talk page entry, so forgive me if I do something outside the norm. I'm trying to be bold! I've added a few pics and done a very small amount of work on articles. I'd like to help more, maybe with some of the stuff mentioned in the peer reviews. I'm wondering what it would be most helpful for me to do. I have plans to get a few more pictures, hopefully in the next few weeks if the weather on the weekends cooperates. Namely, I'm hoping to get to Morrill Hall, Newtown Battlefield, Rose Hill, Gerrit Smith Estate, Elizabeth Cady Stanton House, Jethro Wood House and possibly the Gen. William Floyd House or some in Albany on my way through there. As far as articles go, I've done a little work on Roscoe Conkling House. I could use some feedback on what else it would need to bring it up from a stub, since I've never really done it before. I'd probably be pretty good at copyediting stuff mentioned in the peer review, but that seems to be something that should wait until a little further in the process. If there's something anyone wants help with specifically, I'd be glad to help. Lvklock (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well thanks for pitching in! Your taking pics of those NHLs lacking recent photos would be very helpful, as it has already been for several of the NYS NHLs that you've gotten pics for already. Thanks for those! About copyediting or other help, please, just go ahead. I think new stuff needs to be written to introduce the NYC NHL list, within the NYS article and within itself. But chime in wherever you see something that looks to you like it needs improving, please. About the Roscoe Conkling House, I think the article is good but could be organized better, maybe broken up into sections, but I hope someone else could comment further. Cheers, doncram (talk) 04:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

A checklist[edit]

Please edit/expand/update this checklist. Use strikeout to indicate an item is done.

  • create article for each of 148 entries
  • get some good photographs for some of them. There are 60 photos now (most by Daniel Case, thanks, and all of those are very good!) vs. 87 no-photo entries. Comparable to List of mammals of Canada, a FL with ~116 photos and ~85 no-photo entries. Note that FL List of Dartmouth College faculty has about 100 entries but just 1 photo. Note that FL List of Chicago Landmarks has only about 25 for its 237 or so Chicago Landmarks.)
This is something I'd like to push for. One thought after looking at the DC entry, is some of the houses of historic figures could be filled with photos of the historic figures... dm 15:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I put four photos in to try it out, see what you think dm 16:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I like the temporary strategy if Public Domain site photos are not available. (Actually, I think the photos of historic persons like Susan B. Anthony could usefully be added to the the corresponding site articles, permanently.) However, there are public domain photos available for many articles and for list use, if one is willing to do the photo cropping and posting with appropriate attribution to Commons. For Susan B. Anthony House and Adams Power Plant Transformer House I have now added HABS gallery links to the articles. And each has NRHP photos already linked. For Anthony house, NRHP photo credit is NPS, so it is PD. For Adams, I am not sure if NRHP photos are PD or not, but some of HABS photos would work anyhow. doncram 22:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
We now have about 124 articles with a pic, only 24 or so without. Much improved.
  • overall list is numbered to show that it has 148 entries
  • overall list is sortable by date and name
  • refine article name to accurately describe the article.
    • Indicate it does not cover NYS. Should it be "List of National Historic Landmarks in New York State, excluding New York City"
      • No, that's too long and sort of goes against naming conventions. A simple link to the NYC list at the top will do. Note that many of our New York categories have a subcategory for New York City. I think the current title is best. Daniel Case 14:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Perhaps indicate that it includes lists of SHSs, Areas in NPS control, in addition to NHLs. Perhaps those do not need to be reflected in the title. Note List of Chicago Landmarks does not reflect in its title that it also includes a list of NHLs in Chicago that are not Chicago Landmarks.
      • Consensus is that name is fine.
  • refine intro ("lede"), which per FL list criteria and MOS should be a few short paragraphs that provide a nutshell view of the entire list, and appear before the table of contents, in section 0 of the document.
    • Include specific summary facts based on the stable list that we now have, e.g. (these are made up facts) that the list includes 5 (or whatever) Revolutionary War battlefields, 5 ships constructed after 1900 and 3 constructed before 1900 (or whatever), 25 houses that perhaps are nice but are significant chiefly for their association with an important person (or whatever), etc.
  • choose a great lead photo or two to sit beside the intro text, like FL List of Chicago Landmarks has.
    • Perhaps the 2 now work? Went to 4 pics.
  • create article for the one site that was delisted
  • revisit all 148 articles, consider re-rating each to at least "Start" class quality, and list out those still rated Stub. Done, having uprated some to Start and listed those still rated Stub in section further below.
    • When done with listing Stubs, post a request at WP:SHIPS to ask for help on the ships among them. Done for the 5 ships in NYS outside NYC.
    • Likewise submit request to WP:SHIPWRECKS re the one shipwreck in Lake George. Done.
    • Likewise submit request to BRIDGES re Old Blenheim bridge at least. Done, got one comment.
  • revisit all 148 descriptions, make sure those correspond well to articles and are objective. Perhaps wordings like "exemplary" and "An excellent example of" need to be reworded. Peer reviewer comments would be helpful.
  • revise section of article that currently lists National Monuments, to cover all National Park Service areas in NYS outside NYC (as Doncram has done for various other state NHL lists now). Done.
  • review and clean up as necessary the associated List of NYC NHLs to ensure it is a good list, although not necessary to up to FL status yet, trying this NYS list first.
    • Dmadeo did a lot of further development of NYC list. Seems feasible / perhaps best to put both up for FL together.
  • ask for WP:NRHP informal peer review of the article, and respond to comments.
    • Have asked individuals, will seek comments as part of Peer Review.
  • ask for formal review by the WP:Review process, and respond to comments
  • submit for Featured List review, and respond to comments
  • achieve Featured List status
  • bask in the glory :)

Get photos[edit]

I haven't edited and uploaded HABS photos before, but note HABS photos (all in public domain) are available for many sites. HABS/HAER photos usually need cropping, as is demonstrated in example at Historic American Buildings Survey article, and as Daniel Case did for Elephant Hotel photo. Hopefully others can do the editing and uploading? I am adding external link to HABS photos, where I can find them, in all articles, and noting their availability here for the articles that entirely lack photos. When add a photo, need to add to the article and to the overview list. (Photos in the list should be available in the article, as a general rule, IMO.) doncram 19:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

HABS/HAER photo upload checklist (cross by strikeout when done):

-- doncram (talk) 18:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC) and updated various times, including doncram (talk) 02:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

NPS photo uploads (how can we do these?):

  • Edward M. Cotter (fireboat), can add NRHP photo #4-#11 in PD because taken by NPS employee Delgado, or #1 in perhaps PD because of 1920 date (isn't that old enough so it is in public domain?). Perhaps #4 or #5 is best of these. #4 added.
  • Franklin B. Hough House: the one photo in NRHP photos link is NPS credit, so is public domain and can be uploaded. No HABS photos available, either, so use this one. Is it necessary to ask NPS central or local office?. NRHP pic added.
  • Oliver Bronson House: I'm not sure if the photo at NHL Summary Page is public domain or not, even though it's labelled "NPS Files". Thoughts? dm (talk) 04:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer not to start using those small images on NHL webpages. Clearly those are reductions of a larger pic in the NRHP files. Better to follow request procedures as necessary, to get those better quality pics and to avoid copyright questions. Haven't yet tried a request to NPS or the appropriate local NPS office, it can't be that hard. Hmm, actually the NRHP photos for this site are owned by NYS it seems, have to go through them. doncram (talk) 02:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Buffalo and Erie County Historical Association photo requests:

  • For Edward M. Cotter (fireboat), there are NPS photos, but NRHP pic #2 is the best pic, owned by Buffalo and Erie County Historical Association. Try contacting them first? different pic added

NYSOPRHP photo permissions requests:

  • ForDr. Oliver Bronson House and Estate, request NYSOPRHP permission to use photos accompanying NHL nom.
  • For Camp Pine Knot and 2 other Adirondack Great Camps, request photos from NYSOPRHP. The NHL nomination for Camp Pine Knot and the overall theme study were written by NYSOPRHP employee, must have photos. (Note, also, one wikipedia photographer now in Adirondacks.)
First, from the NYS OPRHP database, should get the corresponding NRHP text and photos added to their articles first, so can request specific photos. Have added that text and photos link for Camp Pine Knot article just now. doncram (talk) 02:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

New photos:

  • Thanks to Dmadeo for many previously and 6 or more new photos filling NYS NHL gaps recently,
  • Thanks to Lvklock for 4 or more recently,
  • Thanks to Cg-realms for 2 or more recently,
  • Thanks to DanielCase for many previously and 1 or more recently. 69.226.46.107 (talk) 12:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Oldest claims comparisons[edit]

Various claims of "oldest" have been made, which bear checking together:

In New York State:

  • The Adirondack Park's description is that it is "one of earliest areas protected by any U.S. state". "It was established in 1885, and later protected in "forever wild" section of New York state constitution." Surely there are many small parks, cemeteries, plots of land, or properties like Old North Church or Independence Hall, which have been protected in some way by some state action, from earlier. Yes, perhaps the Boston Common and other old protected areas might have been protected by municipality not by the state. But would Adirondack Park better be described as one of earliest formally protected areas? one of earliest wilderness areas? was it wild then? Maybe the original wording is best, i am not sure. What are the other early areas protected by any U.S. state then, however? doncram (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm using "protected" in the sense of protected area and as an article covered by WP:PAREAS: an area protected for its natural resources. It was probably less wild then only in the sense that there was more visible logging. Daniel Case (talk) 19:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Washington's Headquarters State Historic Site is described as "the first-ever property designated as a historic site by a U.S. state." From its article: "In 1850, it was acquired by the State of New York and became the first publicly operated historic site in the country."
  • Huguenot Street Historic District article states "The seven stone houses and three accompanying structures in the district were built in the late 17th century by Huguenot settlers fleeing religious persecution in France and Belgium. They have been in use ever since, making the street the oldest continuously inhabited neighborhood in the current United States of America, with the possible exception of portions of areas under continuous Native American habitation such as Taos Pueblo." Contrast to St. Augustine and Santa Fe statements below.

In other U.S. states:

  • From article of Elfreth's Alley, a Philadelphia PA NHL: "Elfreth's Alley is a residential alley located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in the United States. It is the oldest continuously inhabited residential street in the country, dating back to the early 1700s, and a National Historic Landmark."
  • For comparison, Lake Merritt Wild Duck Refuge, an NHL in California, was the United States' first official wildlife refuge, designated in 1870, per its article.
  • From the Historic preservation article: an early "Historic Preservation undertaking was that of George Washington's Mount Vernon in 1858.[2] Founded in 1889, the Richmond, Virginia-based Association for the Preservation of Virginia Antiquities was the United States' first statewide historic preservation group.[citation needed] The US National Trust for Historic Preservation, another privately funded non-profit organization, began in 1949 with a handful of privileged structures and has developed goals that provide "leadership, education, advocacy, and resources to save America's diverse historic places and revitalize our communities" according to the Trust's mission statement. In 1951 the Trust assumed responsibility for its first museum property, Woodlawn Plantation in northern Virginia."
  • From St. Augustine, Florida article, "St. Augustine is the county seat of St. Johns County, Florida, in the United States. It is the oldest continuously occupied European-established city, and the oldest port in the continental United States.[2]" Its NHL webpage link states: "St. Augustine, founded as a Spanish military base in 1565, is the oldest continuously occupied European settlement in the continental United States."
  • From Santa Fe, New Mexico article, "A settlement on the site that would become Santa Fe was first established by Juan Martinez de Montoya ca. 1607-1608 The town was formally founded and made a capital in 1610, making it the oldest capital city and perhaps tied with Jamestown, Virginia (1607) for second oldest surviving American city founded by European colonists, behind St. Augustine, Florida (1565)."
Hey, see new article Oldest buildings in the United States ! doncram (talk) 06:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, by the way, I am confused between Wyckoff-Bennett Homestead and Pieter Claesen Wyckoff#Wyckoff Farmhouse Museum and there is another Wyckoff house or two. These need to be described and linked to one another. One or two of them are the oldest somethings. doncram (talk) 06:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates[edit]

A bunch of these articles have two sets of coordinates superimposed over each other above the infobox. How can that be fixed? Ex. Adams Power Plant Transformer House, Susan B. Anthony House, Boughton Hill Lvklock (talk) 23:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I didnt respond because i dont know exactly what to do. In Adams Power Plant, i can see there are two sets of coordinates: one in the NRHP infobox, and one down in the external links as {{Geolinks-US-buildingscale}}. I'm sure it could be cleared by deleting the separate one down in the external links. But, I don't know which is more accurate information. For the NRHP infobox, i presume the data is from NRIS and is not great quality. I don't know where the external link coordinate data is from. If it is better data, perhaps it should be converted to degrees-minutes-second format from decimal format and put into the infobox. (I recently put some info about how to do that into conversion into WP:NRHPMOS, from a discussion on WT:NRHP) Anyone else know what are the sources of the two coordinates and what to do here? Perhaps this should be asked at WT:NRHP. doncram (talk) 03:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

added section of entries missing photos[edit]

For our convenience, these are the entries without photos (or reasonable images)

[1] Landmark name
[2]
Image Date of designation[2] Location[2] County[2] Description[3]
9 Dr. Oliver Bronson House and Estate July 31, 2003 Hudson 42°14′35″N 73°47′09″W / 42.243119°N 73.785764°W / 42.243119; -73.785764 (Dr. Oliver Bronson House and Estate) Columbia
13 John Burroughs' Riverby Study November 24, 1968 West Park Ulster
14 Camp Pine Knot August 18, 2004 Raquette Lake 43°49′17″N 74°37′34″W / 43.821325°N 74.626197°W / 43.821325; -74.626197 (Camp Pine Knot) Hamilton
42 Fort Massapeag Archeological Site April 19, 1993 Oyster Bay Nassau
45 Fort Orange Archeological Site November 4, 1993 Albany 42°38′41″N 73°45′01″W / 42.64485°N 73.750292°W / 42.64485; -73.750292 (Fort Orange) Albany
72 Lamoka Site January 20, 1961 Tyrone Schuyler
73 Land Tortoise (shipwreck) August 6, 1998 Lake George Warren
89 Nash (tugboat) December 4, 1992 Oswego 43°27′49″N 76°30′56″W / 43.463478°N 76.515608°W / 43.463478; -76.515608 (Nash (tugboat)) Oswego
130 Stony Point Battlefield

Stony Point Battlefield SHS
Battle of Stony Point.jpg January 20, 1961 Stony Point 41°14′29″N 73°58′25″W / 41.241449°N 73.973522°W / 41.241449; -73.973522 (Stony Point Battlefield) Rockland
138 Valcour Bay BattleofValcourIsland.gif January 1, 1961 Lake Champlain Clinton
With its Google map link, I see that having this table on a separate page from the main list does provide value for allowing one to see where in the state are missing ones. Perhaps it could be stripped down to a smaller table of just place names, addresses and coordinates, so that the Google map works but there is less redundancy vs. main list, and it could be moved to a new section of Talk:List of National Historic Landmarks in New York? Note also: New photo for Lemuel Haynes House was just added by Daniel Case. doncram (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Camp Eagle Island and Camp Pine Knot are in my neck of the woods, but they're both in private hands. Eagle Island buildings can be photographed (badly) from the water through brush and trees. I'll try again this fall. I know a lot less about Pine Knot-- it's a bit of a drive for me (especially with the cost of gas)-- I assume it could be shot from the water, but I have some hopes of wangling permission somehow. There's also the possibility of coming up with archival stuff somehow. -- Mwanner | Talk 12:10, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Camp Eagle Island done somehow, as also Newtown Battlefield. I think the Valcour Bay drawing/map is quite a reasonable image, too. I noticed that the NPS photos for one of those bays were pretty horrible, it is odd to designate a bay as an NHL and it is hard to get a good picture of just a chunk of water. doncram (talk) 01:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I was hoping to get up to Oswego and get a pic of the Nash this weekend, but the weather forecast looks bad. We'll see. Lvklock (talk) 01:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

rename and rewrite[edit]

It's been a year and a half since this list was failed in its Featured List Candidacy and since there was a followup Peer Review. I wonder if moving this list-article to "Top historic sites in New York" and revising its intro suitably would respond to the previous objections for FL status. The lede could instead cover how this list-article describes the top-designated historic sites in the state, as assessed by world, nation, and state offices. There is one World Heritage Site in New York, the Statue of Liberty, which would be covered first, then list the National Historic Sites and other high-level, National Park Service-operated ones (some of which are also NHLs), and then list the NHLs which are not already covered. Comments? --doncram (talk) 21:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I see two possible options here.
  1. One is two make this just a NHL list and cut out the 13 National Park Service sites that are not also NHLs.
  2. Two is doing what you suggest above.
My preference is option 1 - first off there are lists of NHL by state for each state, so it seems like there should be a New York state NHL list too. I also think the NHL list is better defined - they all have the same easy to define and understand characteristic (they are all listed as a NHL). I also do not see a problem with making a list of the historic NPS sites in New York, but the only real problem that kept this from becoming a FL before was including the 13 NPS sites that are not NHLs. The title is "List of National Historic Landmarks in New York". I also look at relative numbers - the article has 150 NHLs, 3 former NHLs and a link to the 108 NHL in NYC, then 13 NPS sites. It seems to me if the NPS sites were a separate list there could still be a brief mention of the list and link to it here. I also worry that a FL is not supposed to be a fork - how would this not be seen as a fork of the NY NHL list? See WP:WIAFL 3b Comprehensiveness: (b) In length and/or topic, it meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists; it is not a content fork, does not largely recreate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article.
That said, if you have a clear idea on how to do your option (#2) I would be interested to see the revised lead.
Sorry to not have replied sooner, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Three missing landmarks[edit]

I believe three NHL's are missing in the list, Woodchuck Lodge, Jethro Wood House, and Wards Point Archeological Site.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Numbers represent an ordering by significant words. Various colorings, defined here, differentiate the National Monuments, National Historic Sites, National Historic Landmark Districts and other higher designations from other NHL buildings, structures, sites or objects.
  2. ^ a b c d National Park Service (November 2007), National Historic Landmarks Survey: List of National Historic Landmarks by State, retrieved 2008-01-27 .
  3. ^ National Park Service. "National Historic Landmark Program: NHL Database".  retrieved on various dates, and other sources cited in the articles on each of the sites.