Talk:List of international ice hockey competitions featuring NHL players

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Sources?[edit]

Can anyone cite sources (official, if possible), where these and only these championships can be considered Professional_ice_hockey_world_championships?

If anyone cannot, then it's POV of the creator of this article. My POV is that if all professionals were welcome to play since 1977 in WC and Olympics, then these events should be considered professional since then: if certain part of professionals was not able to participate (due to schedule etc.) it's up to them. Cmapm 18:49, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Indeed[edit]

This whole article is quite biased. I tried to create some neutrality to it, but might make more sense to remove it completely and possibly replace with another article about international ice hockey tournaments with professional players. Now the name refers mainly to the World Championships arranged by the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) since the 70's, but the article itself is about tournaments arranged by the NHL (which is only a single professional league, even if dominant as such).

Agree. Cmapm 01:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Addendum[edit]

It is true that the Summit Series, Canada Cups and World Cups are not technically "Professional ice hockey world championships". At the same time, the IIHF World Championships should not be construed as such either, as those tournaments were established in Europe by Europeans to coincide with the end of the European hockey season. In reality, there never have been any tournaments which are definitive professional championships.

Until the Nagano Olympics in 1998, the only tournaments which consistently pitted the top professional players (and, therefore, the top players in the world) against one another on an international level were the Canada Cups and the World Cup. Whether that makes those tournaments de facto professional championships is debatable, I suppose, but it is the reality that those tournaments were widely considered to effectively determine the true "world champion" (professional or other) in the same way that the World Cup of Football (Soccer, for us North Americans) determines the same for that sport.

I would, however, definitely NOT consider any series which pitted only Canada against the Soviet Union (e.g., the Summit Series in 1972) to determine the "world champion", if only because of the limited entrants. The 1974 "Summit Series" pitted the touring Soviet squad against the best which the inferior WHA league had to offer, so it definitely can be considered neither an "NHL" tournament nor a "professional ice hockey world championship" by any measure. I absolutely disagree with its inclusion in this list under any circumstances.

Incidentally, it is not true that the NHL arranged the tournaments identified in the lists in the article. I have already above discredited the 1974 "Summit Series" from being an "NHL" series. The 1972 "Summit Series" was arranged by then-NHLPA boss Alan Eagleson, but not by or for the league itself. I'm fairly sure that he organized the 1976 Canada Cup as well, and as some WHA players (e.g., Bobby Hull) played in that series for Canada, it definitely was not an "NHL" tournament. Although I'm pretty sure that all Canadian players in subsequent tournaments were NHL players (except Eric Lindros in 1992), that does not mean that the tournaments were organized by the NHL and, in fact, I'm fairly sure that the NHLPA, not the NHL, organized them (for evidence of the distinction between the NHL and the NHLPA, you need look no further than the 2004-05 NHL lockout). Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but it is evident that these tournaments were not "NHL" by virtue of the inclusion of non-NHL players from time to time. It is certainly not true that all players from all competing teams at any of these tournaments were NHL players and, in fact, it is safe to say that many players from non-North American teams have not been NHL players.

Does the fact that the "neutrality" of this article is in dispute (although I think it's more the accuracy than the neutrality which is in dispute) not make the statistics presented in other pages which refer here (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_national_men%27s_hockey_team) also in dispute? Also, how do issues like this get resolved by the Wiki-people?

Sorry for my long-windedness. Hockey is my passion. Let the lockout end!

Do you think,that "inaccuracy" prevails over "non-neutrality" here? If you do, then may be it'd be better to replace NPOV tag with one of the tags mentioned in Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute article? I suppose, that the article should be renamed to something like "International tournaments with professional players" and the first sentence about "NHL arrangement" should be adjusted to reflect your view (I agree with most of your points). How these issues are dealt in Wiki? As I understand, when all people here (on the talk page) agree the article changed enough to become neutral, NPOV tag can be removed (so far at least I don't think it's neutral in particular due to its controversary-in-my-opinion name). Cmapm 12:06, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

It needs to be renamed and reworked, or deleted[edit]

For the tournaments to be considered professional the players have to be either compensated or they have to play hockey as a profession. In either case NHL players aren't the only professional hockey players. These tournaments cannot be considered world championships either because most of them are invitational, and are not organised and goverened by a multi-national federation (such as the IIHF). Most of the mentioned events weren't arranged by the NHL either, so that too is erronious.

I suggest we rename it to something like "International ice hockey tournaments featuring NHL players" and clean it up (it does need a good cleaning), or simply delete it. I can take it upon myself to rework the article (I have some good ideas of how), but I want to be sure that we're all on the same page. An admin will have to rename it.

--Sarke 08:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I also think, that your point of view basically reflects ones of anon users who posted under "Indeed" and "Addendum" sections. Admin is not needed here. As I know Wiki policy, if we want to rename the article, we should move the page to the name proposed by you. The page with this name will remain (it will be redirected to the new name), but we can place it into Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion (as it more or less suits to 2. and 4.reason there) and if the consensus will be reached to delete it there, it will be deleted, but "continue its life" under the new name. I can do it myself, when I have a time, if you want. Cmapm 17:20, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Now that I think of it, "International ice hockey competitions featuring NHL players" is probably a more suited name, as not all are tournaments. I'll start working on it after breakfast. --Sarke 18:10, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
There, I've done most of the reworking and renaming, but I have to head out now. I'll brush it up later tonight. --Sarke 19:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I do believe the 1974 Summit Series was played with WHA players, not NHL players -- Flag of Canada.svg Earl Andrew - talk 22:11, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
If you think, that it's not suitable here, then remove it, update Wikipedia on your will. Anyway, this info is present on the page about the Soviet team. Cmapm 19:38, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Not really a list, is it?[edit]

It just duplicates the main pages for each tournament. Also it needs a better explanation of what the concept of "best-on-best" is. As well it does a poor job differniating "club" play (Super Series) from national team play (the rest). Kevlar67 02:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion/Merge[edit]

This page was seriously debated as far back as 3 years ago (see above). It has been improved slightly, but I don't feel the gathered listings motivate a page of its own. It's a mix of international tournaments between countries allowing NHL players and NHL players/teams playing against other countries and/or other teams. The focus on NHL-players (as opposed to generally professional players, for instance not considering WHL-players a reason of inclusion) strikes me as unfair, despite it being a prominent league.

All information available (and more detail) can be found on the respective tournament pages. Lejman (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I have done some notifications; the inactive creator, everyone signing a comment on this talk page (Cmapm, Sarke, Earl Andrew, Kevlar67) and Dinosaur puppy, another main contributor. Hopefully the page can be improved or deleted. Lejman (talk) 17:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

This jumble can be resolved by refocusing the article on international competitions done under the auspices or organized by the NHL and/or NHLPA.
Since NHL players are usually unable to play in international tournaments because the NHL season is very long, and the NHL doesn't go in for breaks for outside competitions, NHL players don't usually appear in international competitions. That in itself brings reason to why this list exists.
This is a list article, so ofcourse you would find the details of the competitions in other articles. I hardly see that as a point for deletion, otherwise you'd think lists were not allowed on Wikipedia or something. This is a list afterall, not a specific competition article. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 12:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

What should really happen is we should delete this list and instead an article called best-on-best explaining that the inclusion of the most eilte NHL and other professional players in international play is a recent and still not universal. I would have done it already by the title "best-on-best" I've only heard in a few places, and I can't find a good enough source for it. The concept undoubedly exists, we just need to determine the proper name and agree on the decription.--Kevlar (talkcontribs) 00:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and created best-on-best once I found intances of the NHL, NHLPA, and IIHF using the phrase. --Kevlar (talkcontribs) 02:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
IT might have been better if you just had renamed this article, and rewrote it, since it's a partial rewrite anyways, and an extensive edit history helps to avoid deletion, and this article has been renamed many times already. (It wasn't originally called a "list", IIRC) 76.66.198.171 (talk) 15:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
If that's the case then we could copy the the content I wrote to this page, and then delete my new page, and rename this page to the new title. Does that make sense?--Kevlar (talkcontribs) 19:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
That could work. I'm posting notices on a few WikiProjects to get more input, than just the three of us. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
There's still a need for an article on competitions done by the NHL/NHLPA, that this list also serves as the article for... 76.66.198.171 (talk) 15:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the fact that the NHL/NHLPA hosted it as notable as the fact that it is described as "best-on-best"? I tend to think not. --Kevlar (talkcontribs) 19:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
There are many many list of xxx by yyy on WikiPedia. It should be no different for the NHL or NHLPA. A list of competitions sanctioned or whatever by them is no less encyclopedic than others. The IIHF list was turned into a template and a category. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I like the idea of merging with Best of Best. I don't mind a NHL-player games listing as such, though that means we'd have to add all those exhibition games discussed below under Very Incomplete. That said, I've always perceived this page as a listing of tournaments that North American people felt showed who won in professional competitions, as they were unable to use their best players in most World Championships tournaments. (I see the fact that the individual WC years and its winners aren't listed in its section, despite some NHL players have played in most of those tournaments since 1976 as sort of an example of this. The current inclusion criteria don't say 'all NHL players needs to be able to attend', but 'NHL players attended', which in theory could apply to any exhibition game with a single NHL player participating.) In that regard, the Best of Best page would satisfy the need, and also be easier to manage, with better defined inclusion and exclusion criterias.Lejman (talk) 22:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally I find this list fine, fair isn't an issue. All a list requires in order to be a valid list on wikipedia is be a defined criteria and to be notable. The criteria is clearly that NHL players had to be participants and that it had to be international. The fact that all of these games/tournaments can easily be sourced passes the notability criteria. It could probably have some better prose added into the article but thats not a reason to repurpose the list. -Djsasso (talk) 23:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Another issue[edit]

I think we need an article explaining why ice hockey lacks a real world club championship, and why the Super Series was created, how the NHL defeated the WHA in the 1970s and gutted the Eastern Euopean leagues in the 1990s, and why the KHL was created. A geopolical history of hockey, perhaps.--Kevlar (talkcontribs) 19:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Most of that would probably be WP:OR unfortunately. It would be hard to find enough info that could be sourced for an article like that which wouldn't be a WP:SYNTH issue. -Djsasso (talk) 23:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I thought there was an Ice Hockey World championship. The World Championships held anually in April/May. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Club championships is the top professional teams playing for an international cup. Like the Euro Cup in soccer I believe. Or the Spengler cup in hockey which isn't truely international. -Djsasso (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Do ya'll mean something like, the Stanley Cup champs (NHL) facing the Gargarin Cup champs (KHL)? GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Yup like that. Or the top team from all the major hockey playing leagues facing off against each other sort of like the memorial cup. -Djsasso (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and added an "international" section to professional ice hockey.--Kevlar (talkcontribs) 21:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Very incomplete[edit]

There have been a lot more international games played by the NHL, most of them exhibition games. Jmj713 (talk) 02:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

There was some prior similar discussion here. Jmj713 (talk) 23:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Indeed there are more games, and like Alaney2k write in the discussion you link to, [1] shows a lot more games. I personally think the listing would get crowded with all that information here, but if we don't want it added we need to figure out some inclusion/exclusion criterias.Lejman (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The earlier championships[edit]

In 1998, 2002, 2006 and 2010 the NHL has had a break in the season to allow its players to participate in the Olympics.
and
Since 1976, there has been no limit to how many NHL players countries can send to the IIHF World Championships
Well, how about the earlier championships and games? Especially before World War II? Olympics 1920 through 1936 and World Championships 1930 through 1939? It could be noteworthy because NHL was founded already 1917. 85.217.15.109 (talk) 16:42, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

But the NHL players were professional already then, and both the IOC and IIHF were vehemently opposed to accepting (nominally) professional players in their competitions. 85.226.207.82 (talk) 11:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh yeah, there was that. Sorry. 82.141.119.19 (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Super Series needs team names[edit]

The Super Series summary chart needs to have each NHL team's name included, not simply the generic "NHL". I'll start looking these up, but if anyone already knows, please go ahead. Elsquared (talk) 09:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)