Talk:Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
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WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES
The article Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, along with other articles relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict, is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, as laid out during a 2008 Arbitration case, and supplemented by community consensus in November 2010. The current restrictions are:
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[edit] Proportionally equivalent number of US citizens
I have removed a statement from this page to the effect that 981 Israeli deaths was proportionately equivalent to 40000 deaths in the US because:
- The numbers don't add up. 981 of ~28.75 million Israeli citizens is one in 29306. The US population being ~303 million, this gives a proportional equivalent of 10680.
- No corresponding statement was made for Palestinian deaths.
- The comparison with US population is not especially relevant or enlightening.
- TB (talk) 07:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually, Israel's population is 7.7 million. I am not sure where you got the number 28.75 million. However, comparison with the US is meant to provide an illustration of the fact that 1000+ deaths in Israel is more impactful to its society than, say, a country of much larger size. Israel is a very small country, so more people are affected by this number of deaths. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 18:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- Most odd, I could swear I read the 28.75 from the demographics section of Israel this morning; 981 * 303 / 7.7 is indeed 38,000 - apologies. To address #2 above, taking the larger estimate from Palestine#Current demographics of 10.8 million yields a corresponding calculation of 2038 * 303 / 10.8 = 57,000. - TB (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
As you have done the calculations, do you want to include both comparisons? The number of Israelis killed that were civilians is clear and undisputed, for the most part. But the classification of "civilian" for Palestinians is much more debated. As said in the article, some believe B'tselem's definition of a civilian is too loose. I personally do not think someone killed while attacking someone else should be classified as a civilian, just because they are not officially a member of a terrorist group, as that leaves the indication that they were entirely innocent. I think it would be difficult to get an accurate "corresponding statement for Palestinian deaths". Some sources say that civilians make up about 37 percent or less; others say 50 or more. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 04:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- It isn't for us to decide how to derive a particular figure; we simply report the best data available, citing the most reliable sources available. If reliable sources disagree or are of dubious reliability, we report that fact to our readers also.
- That aside, I'm still not sold on the merits of expressing death counts in terms of 'were this the USA population':
- Both parties involved here are of similar populations (7.7 million / 10.8 million), making the original figures (981 / 2038) of similar ratio to the proportional ones (38000 / 57000). Were the populations of dramatically differing sizes, the comparison might reveal more.
- The US population is an odd choice of yardstick; both domestically and internationally people have only a vague sense of the 'size' of the USA and it's population. Certainly being vastly larger, it has the effect of scaling up the figures from 'a villageful' to 'a cityful', possibly exaggerating the scale of the conflict.
- Where a comparison with a similar conflict might be more useful you have to go back at least a century to find a vaguely similar conflict in the USA (Texas War of Independence possibly?). This further confuses the matter by comparing smaller historical populations with larger modern ones :(
- All in all, I believe the proportional figures add confusion rather than clarity in this case, but am open to argument. - TB (talk) 07:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
[edit] Jenin
I think it would be a good idea to compile the casualties from the Battle of Jenin together rather than list them all separately. It was virtually the same incident, not multiple incidents as it currently appears in the article. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
