Talk:List of metro systems

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Trains / Rapid transit / By country series (Rated List-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Systems (Rated List-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Systems, which collaborates on articles related to systems and systems science.
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is within the field of Systems.
 


Addis Ababa, Ethiopia[edit]

Metro system is under construction in Ethiopia.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.168.18 (talk) 10:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The Addis Ababa Light Rail system is light rail, not rapid transit, as even your provided reference makes clear (though I'm not sure why the reference includes "monorail" in the title, as the system does not appear to be monorail but traditional rail) – so it is included over in the List of tram and light rail transit systems. --IJBall (talk) 16:55, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Cairo Metro[edit]

Are you sure about annual ridership of Cairo Metro? It's source seems more like a prospect. Shaater (talk) 05:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Honestly? – No. With foreign-language references, we're relying on editors who can read that language to tell us what in it. That particular reference always seemed... unclear to me. So, no idea if the ridership figures contained within are actual ridership figures, or ridership projections... --IJBall (talk) 06:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
We need ar speaker to solve this. From archive i can see same version in March 2012, so everything from 2011/2012 (or even 2010/2011) is projection and not actual ridership. --Jklamo (talk) 23:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think so. If you click on the next page of that diagram, It shows annual ridership statistics of Cairo Metro until 2009/2010 and chart that cited in reference is prospect of future years.(I understand Arabic a little) Shaater (talk) 05:36, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

So, it sounds like we should roll the Cairo Metro ridership figure back to that FY2010 value, until somebody can come up with a more reliable up-to-date reference for ridership on Cairo's Metro. Can you provide the exact URL you are referring to when you say "If you click on the next page of that diagram"... Thanks. Nevermind - I figured it out! --IJBall (talk) 19:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your consideration. Shaater (talk) 05:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Lagos Rail Mass Transit[edit]

I have heard that the Lagos Rail Mass Transit will be a rapid transit system. News reports state that the system will "operate over a secure and exclusive right-of-way, with no level crossings and no uncontrolled access by pedestrians or vehicles".[1]

Should this system be added to the "Under construction" list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.126.253 (talk) 22:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd be very leery of doing that as the very article you reference refers to this system as "light rail" multiple times. At best, this "Blue Line" might be grade-separated, but it seems like the other lines in the system will be traditional light rail. But even with the Blue Line, my inclination is to "believe it when I see it" – IOW, if the Blue Line, once it's operational, proves to be "fully grade-separated", we can worry about the details at that point. But, in the meantime, I'd certainly oppose including it here, as even your reference is categorizing this system as "light rail". --IJBall (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Number disagreement[edit]

The source I've added to the lead finds 148 cities with metro systems, and is up to date. This list has 160. Are there possibly light rail/commuter rail systems included in error? There is a breakdown by continent in the source as well. Mattximus (talk) 04:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

A couple of points here. First, there's no question that a straight-up list of systems would be enormously helpful here. At least LRTA provides something like that; unfortunately, UITP does not. Second, your provided reference does say "148 cities have metro systems", which is not the same thing as saying there are "148 metro systems" throughout the world, as some cities New York City, Seoul, Tokyo, etc. have more than one metro system. Third, we still have the quandary as to where to "draw the line" – for example, UITP includes Copenhagen (and some others) as "metro" systems, even though they are technically light metros, and should perhaps not be included here... Bottom line, though: this list has been "cleaned up" a lot over the past few months, as there are many fewer "questionable" systems included than there were a year ago, as pretty much all of the "commuter rail metro-like" systems have been culled from the list, for example. P.S. I'll change the number in the lede to 160, though – I'm guessing the "168" figure is old and out-of-date. --IJBall (talk) 04:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Nyíregyháza metro[edit]

I met a few people who design Nyíregyháza underground but still no official who designed our front page Renewing email me back

Ottawa Confederation Line[edit]

It would seem that the Confederation Line which is under construction in Ottawa would meet the criteria for a metro system under construction, both in the part currently under construction and in the planned extension (fully grade separated, frequencies under 10 minutes throughout the day, and high capacity trains). It is referred to as LRT by the city and the consortium constructing the line, but as the article notes, that does not mean that it is not a metro. Jamincan (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not the unsigned editor who attempted to add it yesterday. I do, however, feel that IJBall's rationale for reverting the edit is contrary to this very page which explicitly states that the branding of the system is not a consideration for whether it should be included.
As the article notes, the distinctions between light rail and metro systems is not always completely clear, however, if the criteria for the list are clearly not being applied consistently (reviewing the talk page here suggests that may sometimes be the case), it does raise the question of the notability of the content since it is essentially just a curated list. Jamincan (talk) 12:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are supposed to follow outside sources. That is why I was very clear in my edit summary yesterday when I removed the Confederation Line the first time – to wit: the official Confederation Line webpage categorizes it as "light rail", as do several news articles I saw yesterday. Calling a "metro" in spite of that would be a textbook case of original research. In a situation like this, I think we have to defer to the builder/future operator in how they categorize the line. Now, having said all that, if it's fully grade-separated, it might technically qualify as a "metro" or "light metro" system. But that doesn't matter – no outside source is calling it that. The truth is, there are some grade-separated systems that are still categorized as "light rail" by various sources for various reasons (and probably one to two dozen more that are categorized as "light metros" rather than full "metros") – when that happens we have to defer to the outside sources. P.S. Note that there is a previous discussion on the Confederation Line which I think has now been moved to this Talk page's archives: at that time I asked for a source to confirm the Confederation Line will be fully grade-separated – I don't remember such a reference being produced... So the criteria outlined at that page is being consistently applied – it's being applied how outside sources are telling us it should be applied. --IJBall (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
By that logic, every item on the list constitutes original research. The article itself states that whether it is referred to as LRT or a metro is not sufficient criteria for inclusion on the list, which means that we can only assess each system by the criteria set out in this page independently in lieu of an authoritative source for the list as a whole. I'm personally off the opinion that the entire article should probably be deleted - the terminology for mass transit systems is far too muddy and mass transit far too diverse to be able to produce a meaningful list - but for the time being, it should at the very least reflect what it claims to represent. Jamincan (talk) 21:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
No it doesn't – the UITP and LRTA references at the bottom of the page are our primary references for what goes in to the list. Other sources supplement that. There's no original research going on here, outside of possibly the "Under construction" list, which is controversial (several editors think it should be cut from the article – I'm probably in that camp, as I think it's usefulness is limited, and it's poorly sourced and divisive...) I'll refrain from responding to the rest of your post... --IJBall (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Just throwing in my two cents here, being from the country. Phase 1 of the Ottawa LRT is fully grade fully grade-separated. Platforms are metro sized @ 120-150m long so in the future 4 LRVs can be strung together to form a train. Looking at the planning docs it does look like a very metro standard project.[1] That being said, the fact that they use low floor LRVs and branded it as an LRT irks me a little. There are 3 systems that have LFLRVs and are called metros (Vienna U6, Budapest Metro M1, and the Seville Metro). All of them are branded as metros by their owners this shows willingness to keep the line at a metro standard in the event of service changes and extensions. In addition these lines stayed with LFLRVs due to legacy engineering constraints; Unlike Ottawa where an LFLRV is chosen even though it is new construction. This could mean that Ottawa's final 40km long system might have road crossings in the next phases and is actually an LRT system with a very high standard central corridor. IMHO I would leave it out until the system is complete and professional organizations have opinions on it.Terramorphous (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the concern on my end – that this system is going to end up looking more like Edmonton, or San Francisco, or Philadelphia, or Newark: a (true) central city "subway", but with LRT outer portions. But I really think it can't just be ignored that the operator calls it LRT. If the operator is calling LRT, our only choice is to demand an equally authoritative reference (e.g. UITP) calling it a "metro" before including it here... --IJBall (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Poll: Metro systems under construction section[edit]

OK, I'm getting quite tired of the controversy and just general errors this section is generating. I know its original inclusion in this article generated some opposition back in the day.

Can anyone make a good case why it should be kept?! (P.S. If you agree with me that the section should go, please indicate below with a "Support" response, or something...)

Bottom line: It is very poorly sourced, subject to many revisions (i.e. opening dates often get pushed back more than once, which becomes an editing hassle), and contains at least two systems (the Russian ones) for which there is a substantial chance that they may never open for service. Even were it sourced, the whole section is vaguely-CRYSTALBALLish.

So, unless someone can make a compelling case for keeping it, I'm going to be BOLD in the near future, and delete the whole dang section. --IJBall (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Against It really is not that hard to maintain a small U/C List. Perhaps we can make editors that really want to include a system to create a page for the under construction metro system with all the sources and information on it like most of the U/C Chinese Metros.Terramorphous (talk) 23:23, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Actually, it is proving to be a lot of work to maintain, what with people wanting to add either light rail systems, or systems not even under construction yet. This section is the single-remaining most controversial part of this page (and maybe my personal biggest "time sink" as I'm constantly having to check to verify whether newly added systems really belong or not...). Considering how little cited it is, the section should just be junked. At the least, all of the unreferenced entries should just be deleted. But I'd like to see comments from the editors who opposed adding this section in the first place, to see if they still feel the same way on this issue or not. --IJBall (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm not against keeping the section, but can see IJBall's perspective. What if we only included systems that are physically under construction, and are called metros by a reliable authority such as the UITP, or we can find a recent article about it in a publication such as Railway Gazette or International Railway Journal? ColonialGrid (talk) 10:42, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the next best solution. You probably won't find a UITP reference for these under construction systems. But articles in either Railway Gazette or IRJ, etc. should be possible to find for a lot of these. Those for which no reference like that can be found should be cut. At the least, totally unreferenced entries should be cut from here. But, what I'm really saying is – I'm likely not going to go out of my way to dig up references for the u/c systems myself, so someone is going to have to find references for them, or I'm just going to cut all the unreferenced entries in the near future. --IJBall (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Against The list should should be kept, as it is simply useful for readers and not that hard to maintain. For poor sourcing there is [citation needed], not deleting whole section. I can feel "crystalballity" in a cases of proposed systems, but we have only under constrution ones in the list. --Jklamo (talk) 19:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
The unsourced systems have been in the list for months. At this point, I'm going to skip the {{citation needed}} step. Look, if people don't want to see a bunch of those system deleted, editors need only follow ColonialGrid's suggestion, and head to Railway Gazette, et al. and quickly find a reference for them. But, this time, I ain't doing that on my end... --IJBall (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Under construction metros that appear to be light not heavy[edit]

Macau appears to be a light metro system, not a full metro [2], it should be moved to Medium-capacity rail transport system. However, there is no 'under construction' section in that article, so I have left it for the time being. Should it be removed from this article without being placed in Medium-capacity rail transport system, or should be wait for an 'under construction' section to be added to Medium-capacity rail transport system? ColonialGrid (talk) 18:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears that the Omsk metro is now to be built as a light metro [3], and therefore should be treated the same as Macau. ColonialGrid (talk) 12:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Omsk construction is frozen, but in any case it will not be a heavy metro.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I think I'd advise cutting both Russian systems as, IIRC, both systems constructions are currently "frozen". --IJBall (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, Chelyabinsk may go as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Light metros are tricky... But if you have references categorizing both systems as such, I'd probably be inclined to cut them from this U/C list for now. If another reference shows up in the future calling them truly "heavy", we can always add them back later. But let me make a strange request – can you add references for these "light metro" systems to the table first, before you remove them? – That way, if I decide to add an "under construction" section to the Medium-capacity rail transport system article, I'll be all set (including references) to do that. Thanks! --IJBall (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes check.svg Done. I'll leave it up to you to decide when, and if, to remove Macau and the two Russian systems. I'm having a bit of a hard time finding sources to support the remaining systems under construction, but most are now cited and I'll keep looking. ColonialGrid (talk) 17:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)