Talk:List of metro systems

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Málaga Metro[edit]

Málaga Metro opened today (listed already in u/c section). But I am not sure about its inclusion (of full inclusion) into main list, as it is another light rail/light metro case. Although branded as light metro, it is operated by LR vehicles. Line 2 is fully underground, but Line 1 has surface section, that includes multiple level crossings. Frequency of service will be 7 min in peak and 100 min off-peak. I think at least Line 1 should be excluded. --Jklamo (talk) 16:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Cool. I'd prefer a reference that mentions the level crossings (do you have one?...). IMO, 7 minute frequencies would probably qualify it for metro status (if given more information about train length and passenger capacity...), if it were fully grade-separated. And I'll note that lrta.org, at least, categorizes it as a "metro" (but they also categorize the Palma Metro as a "metro" too, and that's an absolute joke...) But we have at least the one reference already categorizing it as a "light metro", so if there's no objection, I'll move it to the "light metros" page - I'll wait 24 hours to see if there are any other comments. --IJBall (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
100 min frequency off-peak??? Maybe you meant 10 mins? 100 mins is crazy, compared to the 7 min for peak. Nobody would call a system where you had to wait 100 mins for a train a metro system. I don't really think it qualifies as a metro if it uses tram vehicles, and just by looking at the photos on urbanrail.net, you can see that it isn't grade separated.Unown Uzer717 (talk) 10:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, it's every 10 minutes, off-peak: [1]. Generally, around here though, the frequencies during peak hours are the headway criteria that's looked at. Plenty of true metro systems have headways of 10 mins, or worse, 'off-peak'. --IJBall (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Here is the source for level crossing (at they are also easily visible on Google Maps. --Jklamo (talk) 20:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
For a system like this, I really think level crossings are a "No Go" zone for this list. I'm going to go ahead and remove Málaga Metro from here, and move it over the the Light metros list. --IJBall (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Line 2 is fully underground. I don't understand why Metro Malaga is not included in that list (at least that line) as Seville Metro, which is also in Light Metro's list.Stagiraswarrior (talk) 12:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Stagirasworrior is right, Saville is pretty much the same as Malaga. Both use five section trams, with a capacity of about 230 per tram they would have to have a serive every 1:20 to crack 20,000 passengers per hour (counting both directions). Saville metro should be removed from this list. Liamdavies (talk) 17:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Line 1 is an LRT line and it shares tracks with line 2, the interlined section will be extended further east. Seville on the other hand is 1 fully grade separated isolated line.Terramorphous (talk) 16:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, Seville mighy be grade separated, but it's operated with 31 metre long trams ( http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/es/sevilla/sevilla.htm ); it's not an actual metro, it's a light metro like DLR in London and should be removed from this list. Liamdavies (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
While I don't think use of LRVs per se should disqualify a system from "metro status" and inclusion here, your earlier point about Seville's PPHPD stats are compelling. If there are no objections, I'll remove it from this list (while still leaving it up at the Light metros article) by the end of the weekend... However, it needs to be noted – it's not just Spain's systems that seem to fall into this "Light metro" 'gray area': most of Italy's and Turkey's systems probably don't qualify as anything more than "light metros" if one looks at their PPHPD capacity... --IJBall (talk) 04:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Valencia Metro[edit]

This article does not mention Metrovalencia .? Spain --SoulGooner (talk) 13:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

SoulGooner: Looks like that is a commuter rail, not a metro. Staglit (talk) 14:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Metrovalencia is a weird hybrid system (like the Tyne & Wear Metro) - I believe it's listed at the Light metros page, but it does not belong here... --IJBall (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I hate to do this, especially as it directly contradicts what I argued above. But, if UITP are to be treated as the authoritative source on this matter, which it appears is the case, both Valencia, and Seville (which I only recently argued should be excluded) need to be added. They both appear on the map of 'metro systems around the world', published by the UITP here (on this page). I'm sure there are more inconsistencies to be found, and they too will have to be dealt with. Liamdavies (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
While I think the UITP reference should be considered "authoritative", I don't think it should be considered 100% "definitive" on this question – that reference is good, but it is objectively questionable with a few systems: Metrovalencia is Exhibit A, as it is a hybrid system that contains tram and commuter rail sections, in addition underground sections, and I don't see how it can be considered "metro" without some further explanation on the matter. (Put another way: if Metrovalencia is a "metro", then so are Tyne & Wear Metro and Frankfurt U-Bahn). A few other systems included in that list, e.g. esp. the Spanish systems like Seville and Palma, violate UITP's own broader definition that metros must have "high passenger capacities" (with >30,000 PPHPD). This why I've been trying to use the UITP reference in concert with the LRTA.org list to decide what truly qualifies as a "full metro". It would really be helpful if UITP had individual pages on each system, like UrbanRail.net does, because I'd really like to see some broader explanations on why they're including what they're including. In any case, the way I've been using the UITP ref is this way: if a system's not listed there, then it's definitely out here. --IJBall (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough. In that case many more may need to be removed. Fortaleza Metro and Salvador Metro in Brazil; Chennai MRTS, Rapid MetroRail Gurgaon, and Mumbai Metro in India; and Panama Metro are included in the list, but not on the UITP map. Should they also be removed? Liamdavies (talk) 08:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
One thing to remember: there are a number of systems that are not included in the UITP reference, because they opened just recently (i.e. since 2012). That includes Panama, Mumbai and Salvador, for sure, and possibly Fortaleza (though Foraleza may be another one that's a "light metro" – I'll try to check on that...). Rapid MetroRail Gurgaon is in Delhi IIRC, so it wouldn't show up separately on the UITP map ref. Point taken on Chennai, though – I was uncomfortable when that one was added, but couldn't find a reason to exclude it; I suspect that the Chennai MRTS system falls under UITP's "suburban railway" exclusion. If there are no objections proffered, I will delete the Chennai MRTS system soon... --IJBall (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Follow-up: OK, I've verified that Fortaleza Metro doesn't cut it as a "metro" (27-minute frequencies aren't even close to cutting it). So I will now cut both it and Chennai MRTS from the list. --IJBall (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

pécs metro[edit]

I can put on the list because there that dead is planned for metro — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garbera levente (talkcontribs) 18:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It is unclear what you are saying or asking for here – can you please explain what you mean?... --IJBall (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

No Mention of Newcastle Metro[edit]

As much as I thoroughly enjoyed reading up on your almost comprehensive least of world metro systems, I couldn't help but notice the absence of the Newcastle Metro. Or rather, if it is there, I did not see it in the UK section and I have no idea where else it would be. Below is proof of the existence of Newcastle Metro, not because I am being facetious but because I just want to be explicit. Newcastle Metro does exist, it is wonderful and I used it for three good years while at university there: [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.51.31 08:59, September 28, 2014

The Tyne & Wear Metro is an unusual hybrid system, but it is not considered to be a "metro" by organizations like UITP and LRTA. Instead it is light rail (and is considered so by the UK's Department for Transport), and is covered at the List of tram and light rail transit systems and the Medium-capacity rail transport system articles rather than here. --IJBall (talk) 16:17, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

S-Bahn/Train ?[edit]

Where have the S-Bahn of Hamburg, S-Bahn of Berlin and S-train of Copenhagen gone ? All these system fulfill the conciderations.

  1. urban transport (not more suburban than many system that label themselves as "metro")
  2. departures every 10th or 5th minute each direction and per line
  3. same time tables in the middle of the day, as at peak hours
  4. no crossings with roads or for passengers
  5. stand alone tracks and separated trafic
  6. low average distance between stations

This has been discussed before - and a consensus found to include these. There are other S-bahn/train system that doesn't fulfill the conciderations. Like S-Bahn in Rostock, which uses common tracksa (partly atleast) and 30 minutes between departures. Which conciderations are not fulfilled in these three cases ? Boeing720 (talk) 23:42, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The consensus has changed - our primary UITP reference specifically excludes such systems from consideration as "metros". So we're following the references on this now. --IJBall (talk) 00:02, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and Hamburg S-Bahn actually never did qualify (from its article: "...31.9 km are shared with regional and cargo traffic..." – track-sharing has always been a no-no), and should never have been included in the first place. --IJBall (talk) 00:06, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Within the State of Hamburg , S-Bahn is indeed metro. The part You refer to didn't belong to Hambyrg but to State of Lower Saxony. I has been setteled, I believe. Though several chineze metro system also appears on the list of Trams. There ha yet been found no consensus, regarding excluding of some S-Bahn/train system, as You ought to know, IJBall Boeing720 (talk) 01:25, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
We had a consensus about S-Systems in Hamburg, Berlin and Copenhagen here before - as metro Please show me exact URL to UITP webbpage that excludes S-System in Hamburg, Berlin and Copenhagen as "not metro". Some S-Bahns are not metro, but others are. We had a consensus. Very much more doubtful ar "metro system" with one short line only, or 20-30 minutes beween departures during day time. Boeing720 (talk) 01:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Note that I had to revert you for the second time. Please stop re-adding info until the consensus has been reached here.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:43, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Ah, but there pretty much is already consensus here on this. Most of the editors around here have always been uncomfortable with including any S-Bahn systems in the list – the issue has been debated several times in the Talk archives. The previous consensus was to include only those S-Bahn systems that fully fulfilled "metro considerations" – realistically, that only includes Berlin's S-Bahn. The kind of "slicing" that Boeing720 wants to do just to include Munich's S-Bahn and Copenhagen's S-train is exactly why many of this article's regular editors don't want to include S-Bahn systems. Basically, it should have been: either the whole system meets "metro standards" or it's out. The difference between then and now is we now have a reference from UITP that explicitly excludes any "S-Bahn" or RER -type system (including Berlin's). Which is why Boeing720 is trying to get that UITP reference tossed as "not a reliable source". However, there has been no support for the position that UITP is not a "reliable source" from any quarter (even from editors who aren't regulars at this article) at the RS noticeboard, so we should continue to use it, and exclude the problematic S-Bahn-type systems from this list. That is the best solution, and the position that currently holds the consensus here. --IJBall (talk) 16:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Silence me ? Please don't get personal. Sources is needed, thats it! To IJBall (or anyone else) could You please give me the excact URL to the UITP page that disqualifies S-systems in Berlin, Hamburg and Copenhagen as Metro? These systems have preaviously been well-sourcered as fulfilling all conciderations. With a minor problem for Hamburg, that now I believe is solved. If You ever have the possibility to visit any of these three cities, You will notice the only difference towards U-Bahn/Metro is at a few larger stations, where the S-platforms are parallell to "common platforms" , while U-bahn/Metro aren't. But this isn't a concideration. If there now is a specific UITP page that clearly exclude S-systems, please just give me the URL to that page. I believe it may say "S-Bahns in general are not Metro" or something like that, since there are a number of S-Bahns in Germany that typically share tracks with other trains. But this isn't the case in Berlin and Copenhagen, and if still a minor part of Hamburg S-Bahn shares tracks with regional trains , in a different state, this part should be deducted only. Further several Chineze Metros are also listed at list of trams. I have never included Munich by the way. Perhaps You confuse it with Vienna ? In Vienna the S-Bahn fulfills all but one conciderations. In Vienna old city centre S-Bahn lines and stations have now become parts of the U-Bahn. So nowadays Vienna S-Bahn works as a kind of Suburban rail and shouldn't be included. But this is far from the case in Berlin, Hamburg and Copenhagen. Here a vast number of the stations are located within the city centre or urban area, and are widely used for inter-same-city-transport, without track sharing, 5 or 10 minutes between each departure for each line, also during the mid day. Even though Berlin S-Bahn reaches Potsdam, that city is today build together with Berlin. So is also the case with the longest S-line in Copenhagen. The urban area stretches all along Køge Bugt (Bay of Køge) all the way to Køge south of Copenhagen. (Just use This line was constructed in several stages and prolonged as the urban area grew. The fact S-systems partly use old local train tracks isn't a concideration. (And if so several other listed metros should go, Oslo for one, as 95% of the T-bane net uses old suburban-local tracks) This is also the case for some of London's Tube lines. What's the point of having this list, if we do not use the same conciderations for all metro system ? [And is one single line a system, just by the way] ? I strongly fear IJBall [who in many other ways have made good contributions to this list] tend to discriminate older systems, especially in cities where there are more than one system. Boeing720 (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
In response to your question about the source: "Suburban railways (such as the Paris RER, the Berlin S-Bahn and the Kuala Lumpur International Airport express line) are not included." From here, as seen in the last archive, where the most recent discussions are located. Remember consensus can change, and in this case did. oknazevad (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Maybe text could be added to the Considerations saying that although commuter rail systems in many cities fulfil some or all criteria for being a metro, they are excluded from this list as they are classified as suburban/commuter railways; the UITP explicitly exclude suburban railways. It would probably also be worth mentioning, or linking to the systems whose intensity are on a par with metro systems, such as Germanic S-Bahn systems, the Parisian RER, and in major Australian, North American, and UK cities. This gives mention to many of these rail systems that fulfil the same functions as metros, and share many attributes, but which simply don't meet all the criteria. It might also reduce the frequency of people trying to add commuter systems, and associated discussions as to why they are not included in the list. Liamdavies (talk) 07:28, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It's on my 'To Do' list to rewrite that section (actually, it'll likely be a synthesis of the old version from 2013 with the present version, and updated), but I'm so busy right now that I won't get to that for months. So if someone wants to add such a sentence to the 'Considerations' now, they have my blessing, at least... --IJBall (talk) 07:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Sydney North West Rail Link[edit]

To echo sentiments of others on this page, the comprehensiveness of this page is impressive. However, I find it difficult to shake the feeling that some proposed rapid transit systems are missing from the "under construction" portion. Sydney's North West Rail Link is slated for a 2019 opening date and satisfies every qualification for heavy-rail rapid-transit.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/premier-mike-baird-reveals-north-west-rail-link-trains-will-run-every-four-minutes-in-peak-periods/story-fni0cx12-1227060177363?nk=a570110ad40986a304c140bffd6ae1f0

If anyone would be so kind to add it, the start of construction is 2014 and the planned opening is 2019

The route is also grade-separated, even by Wikipedia's North West Rail Link page itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.185.165 (talk) 04:51, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

This system has had a heterogeneous background, which is why there has been resistance to including it. Essentially, I think some of us want an authoritative secondary source like UITP to categorize it as a "true metro" system before including it. --IJBall (talk) 15:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2014[edit]

Currently constructing a second line of Metro in Rennes, France - http://metropole.rennes.fr/politiques-publiques/grands-projets/ligne-b-de-metro-le-projet/ 210.246.58.141 (talk) 13:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The "Under construction" section is only for entirely new systems. It doesn't cover new "lines" of existing systems. --IJBall (talk) 13:39, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Update for Tehran Metro's Annual Ridership[edit]

Please change annual ridership of Tehran metro from 568(FY 2012) to 633(FY 2013) here's "1391-Statistics and Information-City and Municipality of Tehran/Year 2012-Indicators of Tehran Municipality-Transportation and Traffic". www.tehran.ir (in Persian). http://traffic.tehran.ir/Portals/0/Document/amalkard/91/amalkard91-2.pdf#page=21&zoom=auto,-61,571 Shaater (talk) 07:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Stickee (talk) 02:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

New Athos Cave[edit]

New Athos Cave has also an underground railway, which should be added to the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.228.38.63 (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Not all "underground railways" qualify as "metros". Considering this system's length, and location, I'm nearly certain it operates as a "tourist tram" (with relatively low frequencies), not as a public transit "metro" system. --IJBall (talk) 18:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely, it is not a metro.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Addis Ababa, Ethiopia[edit]

Metro system is under construction in Ethiopia.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.168.18 (talk) 10:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The Addis Ababa Light Rail system is light rail, not rapid transit, as even your provided reference makes clear (though I'm not sure why the reference includes "monorail" in the title, as the system does not appear to be monorail but traditional rail) – so it is included over in the List of tram and light rail transit systems. --IJBall (talk) 16:55, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Cairo Metro[edit]

Are you sure about annual ridership of Cairo Metro? It's source seems more like a prospect. Shaater (talk) 05:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Honestly? – No. With foreign-language references, we're relying on editors who can read that language to tell us what in it. That particular reference always seemed... unclear to me. So, no idea if the ridership figures contained within are actual ridership figures, or ridership projections... --IJBall (talk) 06:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
We need ar speaker to solve this. From archive i can see same version in March 2012, so everything from 2011/2012 (or even 2010/2011) is projection and not actual ridership. --Jklamo (talk) 23:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think so. If you click on the next page of that diagram, It shows annual ridership statistics of Cairo Metro until 2009/2010 and chart that cited in reference is prospect of future years.(I understand Arabic a little) Shaater (talk) 05:36, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

So, it sounds like we should roll the Cairo Metro ridership figure back to that FY2010 value, until somebody can come up with a more reliable up-to-date reference for ridership on Cairo's Metro. Can you provide the exact URL you are referring to when you say "If you click on the next page of that diagram"... Thanks. Nevermind - I figured it out! --IJBall (talk) 19:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your consideration. Shaater (talk) 05:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Lagos Rail Mass Transit[edit]

I have heard that the Lagos Rail Mass Transit will be a rapid transit system. News reports state that the system will "operate over a secure and exclusive right-of-way, with no level crossings and no uncontrolled access by pedestrians or vehicles".[1]

Should this system be added to the "Under construction" list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.126.253 (talk) 22:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd be very leery of doing that as the very article you reference refers to this system as "light rail" multiple times. At best, this "Blue Line" might be grade-separated, but it seems like the other lines in the system will be traditional light rail. But even with the Blue Line, my inclination is to "believe it when I see it" – IOW, if the Blue Line, once it's operational, proves to be "fully grade-separated", we can worry about the details at that point. But, in the meantime, I'd certainly oppose including it here, as even your reference is categorizing this system as "light rail". --IJBall (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Number disagreement[edit]

The source I've added to the lead finds 148 cities with metro systems, and is up to date. This list has 160. Are there possibly light rail/commuter rail systems included in error? There is a breakdown by continent in the source as well. Mattximus (talk) 04:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

A couple of points here. First, there's no question that a straight-up list of systems would be enormously helpful here. At least LRTA provides something like that; unfortunately, UITP does not. Second, your provided reference does say "148 cities have metro systems", which is not the same thing as saying there are "148 metro systems" throughout the world, as some cities New York City, Seoul, Tokyo, etc. have more than one metro system. Third, we still have the quandary as to where to "draw the line" – for example, UITP includes Copenhagen (and some others) as "metro" systems, even though they are technically light metros, and should perhaps not be included here... Bottom line, though: this list has been "cleaned up" a lot over the past few months, as there are many fewer "questionable" systems included than there were a year ago, as pretty much all of the "commuter rail metro-like" systems have been culled from the list, for example. P.S. I'll change the number in the lede to 160, though – I'm guessing the "168" figure is old and out-of-date. --IJBall (talk) 04:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Nyíregyháza metro[edit]

I met a few people who design Nyíregyháza underground but still no official who designed our front page Renewing email me back