Talk:List of occult writers
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I just put in some time on the list of occult authors, but frankly, i think the entire lists of authors sitaution needs help. I, for one, would find it most useful if all lists became CATEGORIES. I can see where this was discussed and tabled in the past. As an indexer and organizer, i see the value of lists of authors being categories and such category listings appearing at the end of an author's entry, leading the reader on to other such authors. Just a voice in the wilderness here, i guess, but maybe, if i have the inclination, i will propose this again. It really is a good idea, and i can;t see why it was never implemented. Also, jsut for drills, a robot search of all wiki pages for the word "writer" in the articles would assist in creation of these lists. Just another helpful thought... Catherineyronwode 00:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
How this list was developed
This list includes authors writing about occult subjects from a participant viewpoint; academic authors researching occultism have been excluded. Those appearing in red at this time will have short wiki articles created by me over the course of the next month -- or YOU can do it, if you want to help!!!! Catherineyronwode 04:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Work Has Been Started to Upgrade This List to Category Status
As of today, there are 19 "red ink" names in this list. My partner nagasiva and i will be creating bio stubs and full bios for these names. When we have completed this task, we will apply for category status for the list, with the understanding that if category status is granted, we will then go into each of the individual pages and add the category tag (with name piped to show surname first, in alphabetical order). Please consider helping us, if so inclined. Catherineyronwode 20:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added quite a few names to this list (including the ones under 16:26, 9 May 2007 18.104.22.168 - my login had expired). Some have no articles of their own. Rosencomet 16:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The list below, consisting of the deleted names by Pigman, is IMO an excellent resource for those looking for occult authors that need an article. I've googled them and included notes on publishers and aprox numbers of books published. These writers are, for the most part, major occult writers with multiple books published by respected publishers such as Llewellyn Worldwide. Before deleting a name, please research it and see if that particular individual is, indeed, an occult author of books that are not just self-published or vanity press products, or a contributor to recognized occult publications.
- I am deleting those authors with less than three books on the occult (unless they are known to me as recognized authors of articles in publications or some other medium), and those for which I have already created a stub. Rosencomet 22:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- George C. Andrews (see below under "list work") - 
- Dan & Pauline Campanelli (authors of at least 6 magic books through Llewellyn)
- David A. Conway (see below under "list work")
- Phillip Cooper (at least 8 occult books, mostly through Weiser and Spiral)
- Thomas Dale Cowan (see below under "list work")
- Taylor Ellwood (author of five books, co-author of 2 others, editor of another, through Egregore Publishing, Immanion Press and Megalithica Books)
- Marguerite Elsbeth (author of at least four books on occult & related topics, mostly through Llewellyn)
- Kenneth Johnson (see below under "list work")
- Evan Jones (see below under "list work")
- Ray Malbrough (author of at least three occult books through Llewellyn)
- Tony Mierzwicki (author of 2 books and contributor to 2 others: Immanion and Konton) - probably should be removed from list until he publishes more. Rosencomet (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Teresa Moorey (about 20 books through Ryland Peters & Small, Sterling, Capall Bann, Ulysses Press, etc)
- John Mumford (at least six Llewellyn titles)
- Joseph M. Murphy (at least 4 books on Santeria through Beacon Press)
- Claire Nahmad (over a dozen book by Inner Traditions / Bear & Company, Sterling Publishing, Tuttle Publishing, Parkgate Books, Souvenir Press, Random House, Running Press, Anova Books) - This one's a real challenge: I can't find a bio or interview of her online anywhere. All I know is that she's British, from Yorkshire, calls herself a wisewoman, and has written a whole lot of books. Rosencomet (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Arthur E. Powell (see below under "list work")
- Carlyle A. Pushong (at least 5 books through Newcastle Publishing, Regency Press, D. Dolphin) - another one I can't find info on outside of the names of his books. Rosencomet (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Janina Renee (wrote at least four Llewellyn titles, and co-wrote a fifth)
- Richard Webster (see below under "list work") 
- Zolar (Over 20 books from Arco, Nash, Fireside, Simon & Schuster, Prentice Hall, Fawcett, Tarpon House, Pearson Press, Souvenir Press) I'm not sure if Zolar is a person or not. Anyone else know?Rosencomet (talk) 16:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Rosencomet 18:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- (crossposted to Rosencomet's talk page)
- I'm going to be cleaning up this list shortly but I see you reverted someone who attempted to take out the redlinked names on the list. Lists such as this should not have redlinks on them. Please see Wikipedia:Listcruft but more specifically Wikipedia:Lists which is a style guideline on lists:.
- "Some lists are useful for Wikipedia development purposes. The lists of related topics give an indication of the state of Wikipedia, the articles that have been written, and the articles that have yet to be written. However, as Wikipedia is optimized for readers over editors, any lists which exist primarily for development or maintenance purposes (such as a list of red link articles needed) should be in project or user space not the main space, if the list is not otherwise encyclopedic." (my emphasis added)
- If you wish to write articles for the people/writers you would like to see on Wikipedia, please do. Putting them on a list like this before they have a Wikipedia article is a kind of POV pushing. Please be aware of this in the future.
- Do many of these writers deserve articles? Yes. But this is not a maintenance development list. It would be better to put them up on Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism to be written rather than here. Pigman 19:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'd also like to note that some of the names I'm deleting are friends and/or acquaintances of mine and who I believe should have Wikipedia articles for their accomplishments. Be that as it may, I'm still deleting them. As a point of comparison, take a look at List of transgender people which appears to be an exemplary list in terms of information. Pigman 19:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Pigman.
- I'm not sure I understand. I see many lists that have, among them, items that do not (as yet) have articles, like List of Marvel Comics mutants and List of sitcoms. It seems to me that in some cases a list should be complete even if each item on that list doesn't even merit a separate article. After all, the article isn't called "List of Wikipedia articles about occult writers". You could get that by clicking on the category.
- In this case, I would expect that any author that has written, say, at least three books on occult subjects published by a recognized press (not a "vanity press" like Lulu or Cafe Press, but one which has standards) is an occult writer, even if no one has gotten around to writing an article about him/her. That's an objective criteria, not POV "pushing".
- If the reader is looking for a list of occult writers, this one is now a poorer example since it is missing many writers who you yourself just admitted are notable enough to merit inclusion. I see no reason to prevent their inclusion in such a list pending the day when each has an article written about it; what exactly is the upside to that? Also, as a resource to those looking for articles in the field to write, it has a use above and beyond a simple list of articles, which would be satisfied simply by the category "Occult writers". Without entries that don't have articles, wouldn't it apply as WP:Listcruft by this definition:
- "The list has no content beyond links to other articles, so would be better implemented as a (self-maintaining) category".
- Anyway, these are not people I "promote", as the unnamed editor warned against, nor did I enter all of them by any means. I have had contact with only a few, maybe five, of the red-linked ones (except that I've read or skimmed many of their books). Some, like Nevill Drury, Ted Andrews, Al G. Manning, Sirona Knight, Pamela J. Ball, D.J. Conway, and Vivianne Crowley certainly belong on any list of occult writers. Some, like Anaar, Tom F. Driver, Bonnie L. Johnston, Michael S. Margolin, Phoenix McFarland and Thorn T. Coyle, IMO do not. Some, like Carol L. Dow, David Harrington, and Tony Mierzwicki are debatable. (All the preceding are based on very quick googles, though. Please feel free to refer to them with appropriate grains of salt.)
- I'd be happy to work with you on a clean-up based on some useful objective criteria, but I don't think "it has no article" is such a criteria. I didn't create the list, and I truly thought the additions I made were in keeping with the list that existed before in terms of notability of individuals. I also hope to write some articles on some of these folks, and perhaps propose some better clarification that these are writers on occult subjects as opposed to writers of occult fiction (though in some cases, they are both, and that too may be notable).Rosencomet 19:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, not having an article is indeed an objective criteria for exclusion and in line with accepted WP guidelines as I understand them. As I think I've advised you before, looking to WP policies and guidelines is much better than looking to other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) as examples. Pigman 21:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Then why are you refering me to another article above:
- "As a point of comparison, take a look at List of transgender people which appears to be an exemplary list in terms of information."
- So, in your opinion, the only list articles that should exist in Wikipedia are those that are lists of articles already in Wikipedia. There should be no lists containing any items that have not had articles written about them. I don't see that guideline anywhere; in fact, that seems to be one of the definitions of Listcruft: "a list that has no content beyond links to other articles". What use has it as an independent article? What purpose do such lists serve not already served by the page you get when you click on a category?Rosencomet 21:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
This list has been messed around and names added that though show active are nothing more than a link to other lists or articles that have nothing to do with occult writers. I will over the course of time clean this section up. --BSTemple (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Could you be specific? I clicked on over a dozen names that I did not immediately recognize as well-known writers of occult material or books about occult material, and each one turned out to be an author of such a book, usually several. (OK, I'm not sure Torkom Saraydarian can be called an "Occult writer") None were "links to other lists". What is your criteria for an occult writer? Theosophy, Masonic mysteries, witchcraft, magic-based religions, mysticism, Magick, Thelema, healing through divine or non-medical methods, shamanism, astrology and other divination systems, mediumship, etc are all occult topics in my opinion. One could argue that authors of occult fiction belong here as well, though I don't see any here that aren't also authors of occult non-fiction.Rosencomet (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Since I put that message up on the 29 January 2009, I have since edited the list. Look in the history. Names removed were:
Were any of these to do with the occult? The list should be okay now, and the fact that you clicked on over a dozen names that you did not immediately recognize as well-known writers of occult material or books about occult material, and each one turned out to be an author of such a book, shows that the edits I have done, have been correct.--BSTemple (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Uh, No, actually it just says that I didn't find a name you LEFT that should be deleted, not that the ones you deleted SHOULD have been deleted. You want to know what these names have to do with the ocult? Let's see...
- Luis Alvarado - this should have gone to the article of the author of Psychology, Astrology & Western Magic, not the baseball player. I don't see an article for the author, so I guess it should remain deleted until there is one. His website () only lists the one book, so maybe he's not notable enough, anyway.
- George Andrews - This should link to an article about George C. Andrews, author of several books including: Food for Thought (about Psychic Energy), The Book of Grass (Written in collaboration with Simon Vinkenoog. Peter Owen Ltd., London, 1967), Burning Joy (Published by the Trigram Press, London, UK, 1968), Drugs and Sexuality (Published in collaboration with David Solomon. Panther, London, UK, 1974), Drugs and Magic (Published by Panther, London, UK, 1975), The Coca Leaf and Cocaine Papers (Written in collaboration with David Solomon, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, New York and London, UK, 1976), and Extra-Terrestrials Among Us (Published by Llewellyn, St. Paul, Minnesota, U.S.A., 1986).
- David Conway (or David A. Conway) - Let's see: Complete Magic Primer by David Conway (Thorsons Pub, ISBN 1855381745 (1-85538-174-5)), The Magic of Herbs by David Conway (Maypole Editions, ISBN 0583124275 (0-583-12427-5)), The Rediscovery of Wisdom: From Here to Antiquity in Quest of Sophia by David Conway, Secret Wisdom: The Occult Universe Explored by David Conway, Old Egypt And The New Age by David Conway, Beyond Tantra by David Conway, and a whole lot of books arguably not related to the occult like The Elements of Reasoning by David Conway & Ronald Munson.
- Tom Cowan (or Thomas Dale Cowan; NOT, obviously, the Scottish footballer)- OK, how about: Shamanism: As a Spiritual Practice for Daily Life by Tom Cowan (1996), The Celtic Way of Seeing: Meditations on the Irish Spirit Wheel by Frank MacEowen and Tom Cowan (2007), The Mist-Filled Path: Celtic Wisdom for Exiles, Wanderers, and Seekers by Frank MacEowen and Tom Cowan (2002), Yearning for the Wind: Celtic Reflections on Nature and the Soul by Tom Cowan and Sandra Ingerman (2003), Power of the Witch: The Earth, the Moon, and the Magical Path to Enlightenment by Laurie Cabot and Tom Cowan (1990), Fire in the Head: Shamanism and the Celtic Spirit by Tom Cowan (1993), Love Magic by Laurie Cabot and Tom Cowan (1992), The Shaman's Quest: Journeys in an Ancient Spiritual Practice by Nevill Drury and Tom Cowan (2002), The Way of the Saints: Prayers, Practices, and Meditations by Tom Cowan (1999), and The Pocket Guide to Shamanism (The Crossing Press Pocket Series) by Tom Cowan (1997)
- Richard Webster - this one:  - Let's start with: Palm Reading for Beginners: Find Your Future in the Palm of Your Hand, Pendulum Magic for Beginners: Power to Achieve All Goals (For Beginners (Llewellyn's)), Creative Visualization for Beginners by Richard Webster (2006), Michael: Communicating with the Archangel for Guidance & Protection by Richard Webster (2004), Practical Guide to Past-Life Memories: Twelve Proven Methods by Richard Webster (2001), Uriel: Communicating with the Archangel for Transformation & Tranquility (2005), Raphael: Communicating with the Archangel for Healing & Creativity (2005), Dowsing for Beginners: How to Find Water, Wealth and Lost Objects (Llewellyn's Beginners Series) (2003), Spirit Guides & Angel Guardians: Contact Your Invisible Helpers (2002), Encyclopedia of Angels by Richard Webster (2009), Candle Magic for Beginners: The Simplest Magic You Can Do (2004), Gabriel: Communicating with the Archangel for Inspiration & Reconciliation (2005), Soul Mates : Understanding Relationships Across Time (2001), Astral Travel for Beginners: Transcend Time and Space with Out-of-Body Experiences (Sep 1, 2002), Aura Reading for Beginners: Develop Your Awareness for Health & Success (2002), 101 Feng Shui Tips for Your Home (1998), The Encyclopedia of Superstitions (2008), Amulets & Talismans for Beginners: How to Choose, Make & Use Magical Objects (2004), Color Magic for Beginners (2006)
- Kenneth Johnson (author of several books, mostly through Llewellyn, including Mythic Astrology Applied with Gail Guttman & Ariel Guttman, Witchcraft and the Shamanic Journey, North Star Road: Shamanism, Witchcraft & the Otherworld Journey, Slavic Sorcery: Shamanic Journey of Initiation, The Grail Castle: Male Myths & Mysteries in the Celtic Tradition with Marguerite Elsbeth, The Silver Wheel: Women's Myths & Mysteries in the Celtic Tradition with Marguerite Elsbeth, Mythic Astrology: Internalizing the Planetary Powers with Ariel Guttman, Mansions of the Moon: The Lost Zodiac of the Goddess, Stories Past and Future with Ariel Guttman, The Ancient Magic of the Pyramids and more)
- Evan Jones (author of at least four books including: Sacred Mask Sacred Dance with Chas S. Clifton, The Robert Cochrane Letters: An Insight into Modern Traditional Witchcraft with Robert Cochrane, Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed with Doreen Valiente, and The Roebuck in the Thicket: An Anthology of the Robert Cochrane Witchcraft Tradition with Robert Cochrane and Michael Howard)
- Well, Margot Anand does, and I'm returning her name to the list. Luis Alvarado probably isn't notable enough to merit one. The rest I'm putting in the work list above until someone writes articles about them.Rosencomet (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- These now have articles:
- Margot Anand - a well-known author of books on Sex Magic, Tantra and Sacred Sexuality like: The Art of Everyday Ecstasy: The Seven Tantric Keys for Bringing Passion, Spirit and Joy Into Every Part Of Your Life (June 15, 1998) Broadway ISBN 0767901649, ISBN 978-0767901642, The Art of Sexual Ecstasy: The Path of Sacred Sexuality for Western Lovers (January 1, 1989) Jeremy P. Tarcher ISBN 0874775817, ISBN 978-0874775815, The Art of Sexual Magic (September 9, 1996) Tarcher ISBN 0874778409, ISBN 978-0874778403, and recordings like Sexual Magic Meditations: Cultivating Sexual Energy to Transform Your Life (Audio Cassette) (September 1996) Sounds True ISBN 1564553604, ISBN 978-1564553607 and SkyDancing Tantra: A Call to Bliss (Music CD) - Certainly occult topics.
- Arthur E. Powell - Astral Body and Other Astral Phenomena, Etheric Double, Human Astral Entities, The Mastery of Emotion, Astral Death, Clairvoyance in Space and Time, Kundalini, The Fourth Dimension, Rebirth, Discipleship, Chakras, The Development of Astral Powers, Sleep-life, Dreams, Invisible Helpers, The Astral Plane, Non-human Astral Entities, Thought Forms, The Magic of Freemasonry, Spiritualism, and The Work of a Lodge of the Theosophical Society Rosencomet (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
- Other names IMO worthy of both Wiki articles and inclusion in this list include:
- Ted Andrews
- Edain McCoy
- Donald Tyson
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