Talk:List of post-punk bands

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Updated the links of current bands. --FACT50 19:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I just completely redid this page. It now includes sub-headers for Post-Punk influenced 80's bands, as well as notable post-punk centric record labels. --FACT50 18:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are The Cribs in this list? They don't seem at all like post-punk to me, they just seem like indie. Ian 22:42, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a few comments; I agree with most of the contemporary bands you have listed and thought I'd suggest that while I don't feel that T.V. on the Radio can really be characterized as post-punk (they lack the noisy/rough edge and more intense energy that I feel is part of that genre) it might be prudent to include Ex-Models and We Are Wolves on the list. Maybe even ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead. And was Pavement on there? I didn't check, but they probably should be. And to Ian2203, I say that you can be an indie band and also be post-punk, or not be post-punk. 130.245.230.173 11:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Happyfetusday

Contents 1 Cleaned up about half of page.... 2 Adding Kaiser Chiefs to the revival section 3 Spoon 4 XTC were part of Post-Punk 5 Serious and experimental synhtpop artists? 6 Depeche Mode 7 P.K. 14 verified as post-punk via reliable sources. Do not revert.

[edit] Cleaned up about half of page....

I got rid of about half of the non Wiki linked entries. Too tired to get rid of the rest.Crescentia 00:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Was just curious, why was this done? I had spent a lot of time last year adding a lot of historically important post-punk bands to this list that do not happen to have Wiki-linked entries. I didn't realize that was a requirement. There are bands that were cut that were more relevant/influential than some bands that weren't, that happen to have links. I'm not criticizing you; I just want clarification. If I want to include a band on a comprehensive historical list such as this one, I have to create a separate Wiki entry for them first??? Greg Fasolino 15:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I am confused because some of your lines between post-punk and New Wave are not clear. I know it is difficult to make a clear distinction, but if some are going to be marked more "new wave" (such as the disclaimer after Human League) the practice should be continued to include New Order, Depeche Mode and a few other bands that ride the line. I looked to this article to help me distinguish between the two, but sometimes the list made it more confusing. The two genres go hand in hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.137.107 (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I grew tired of seeing the incomplete state of this page on my favorite genre of music, and have added back much of what was once spuriously deleted. Note, I have checked, and a band does NOT need to have a separate article on Wikipedia in order to be listed. Many of the bands deleted last year are quite important, influential, and beloved by fans of post-punk. I've been a music journalist since 1984 and wrote about post-punk then and since, in everything from "Trouser Press" to "Creem" to "The Big Takeover," and would appreciate asking before deleting all of what I have added ("Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references"). I would be happy to provide references and citations for anything I have put back. Thank you. Greg Fasolino (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Kaiser Chiefs to the revival section

I'm going to add the Kaiser Chiefs to the revival section, and hopefully this time they won't get removed. This is perhaps the only time I've read anything about post-punk music and not seen mention of them, so it makes the article seem lacking.

Seriously, please stop removing them. At best, arguing that they're new wave is splitting hairs, especially considering both genres are nearly one in the same. Need some sources? here you go: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/19207-employment "there seems to be a mini-wave of UK acts brandishing their accents with a frequency last heard in the early days of post-punk. To these American ears, those vocals are part of what makes the Futureheads and Bloc Party sound as good as they do. Kaiser Chiefs are another of these groups" http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/7087457/review/7070365/employment http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2005/03/live_kaiser_chi.php Here again in this link, mentioned alongside other post-punk acts Editors, The Bravery, and The Killers: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/43713-an-end-has-a-start And finally, they're even listed as post-punk revival on Wikipedia's own indie rock page.

So, at best, you're splitting hairs here, at worst, making Wiki wildly inconsistent. 72.49.10.81 (talk) 02:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spoon

I added Spoon to the post-punk influenced section. Here's the source: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/49260-interview-spoon Specifically: "Pitchfork: You guys seem to have gone through a few phases in your career, to over-generalize a bit. The first two albums were pretty explicitly rooted in a specific strain of post-punk.

BD: Yeah, I didn't think there was anything cooler than Wire and Gang of Four. That is kind of what I was shooting at for a couple of years. " 72.49.8.125 (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] XTC were part of Post-Punk

Mr. Dodds objected to my inclusion of XTC here (I specifically mention their earlier albums, prior to drummer Terry Chambers' departure, when their music became less angular and rhythm-oriented and more pastoral/Beatlesque).

I explained that while they are also dubbed "new wave," so were bands included here such as Talking Heads, Devo, Orange Juice, Wall of Voodoo, etc., who have a great musical commonality with the '70s XTC sound. Their use of synths on their first two albums, their experiments in dub (releasing an entire record of dub mixes), their wiry, angular guitar interplay on albums 3 and 4, esp. on tracks such as "Roads Girdle the Globe" and "Paper and Iron"---all clearly announce that this is a band with post-punk affiliation. Their influence on post-punk revival bands (Hot Hot Heat, Franz F., Futureheads) is clear.

Wesley said "They aren't called post-punk, though."

Well, the fact of the matter is that they often are, as can be seen by simply Googling "XTC" and "post-punk."

AMG: "After the punk revolution of 1977, a number of bands inspired by the d.i.y. spirit and raw sound of punk were formed. However, instead of replicating the sound of the Sex Pistols,many of these bands forged into more experimental territory, taking cues from a range of artists and styles, such as Roxy Music, David Bowie (especially Low, Heroes and Lodger), disco, dub and Krautrock. The result was Post-Punk, a more adventurous and arty form of punk, no less angry or political but often more musically complex and diverse. Many of these groups — like Joy Division or the Cure — created dark, synthesizer-oriented soundscapes while others— like Orange Juice or XTC — had a lighter guitar-based musical approach but their lyrics and music were off-kilter and often subverted traditional pop/rock song structures." http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2636

"Classic examples of post-punk outfits include Public Image Ltd., Killing Joke, the Psychedelic Furs, Gang of Four, Joy Division, XTC, Echo and The Bunnymen, Josef K, The Raincoats, Talking Heads, Television, Wire, U2 and Magazine" http://wapedia.mobi/en/Post-Punk_Revival

And XTC's page on last.FM: "XTC were an influential post-punk/new wave band from Swindon, England." http://www.last.fm/music/XTC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 16:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The last two are unacceptable sources (particularly Last.fm, since anyone can add any tag they want to an artist and edit bios). Allmusic is fine, but does the band's Allmusic article label them post-punk? How about other reliable sources? WesleyDodds (talk) 12:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the larger issue here is whether a band has to be "proven" or exclusively labeled as post-punk in order to be included in what is clearly a loose and very, very diverse grouping of artists affiliated with this genre here. Post-punk is an extremely varied label that is not musically homogenous (like, say, bluegrass or black metal or roots reggae or something); in fact, that is one of the factors that distinguishes it from punk rock... The boundaries of what is and is not post-punk have always been fluid, and you are attempting to make them rigid. If XTC cannot be included, then a host of other acts mentioned here would be similarly excluded for not being exclusively and only labeled as post-punk; and frankly, when referring to the original post-punk bands of the '79-84 era, ALL of them were called other things as well at the time. Do you think that Gang of Four or the Banshees or Wire or Talking Heads were only called "post-punk" back in the day? They weren't. I remember, being a fan at the time. Those bands were variously called punk, new wave, alternative, gothic, etc.

I gave you good scholarly reasons why the music on those 1978-80 XTC albums is comparable to and sonically equivalent to other post-punk bands of the same era, and I cited examples (this is not a court of law, you know, and there's no magic book with a list of all True Post-Punk Bands) where XTC in that era is referred to and considered "post-punk." That should be enough. I don't have the time to write a thesis; that's why I suggested googling the terms. You'll see many references, which should tell you something right there; if the band had no post-punk affiliation, there wouldn't be any mentions. "Post-punk" is not a black and white rigidly defined genre, and it's delineated not by some "proof" (I note you have not spoken at all about the actual music), but by what people---ie, music fans and critics---call it. It's clear that the early XTC work is often mentioned as post-punk.

Here's some more stuff anyway:

Post-Punk.com's list (I think they are quite authoritative): http://www.movementproductions.net/ppbandslist-ac.html

Trouser Press (just as authoritative!): "XTC: Live in Concert, documenting a fierce 1980 show, stands in stark contrast. Goaded by Terry Chambers' workmanlike yet brutally crafty drum work, the band sprints with tight, adrenalized velocity through a tuneful set of post-punk classics including "Life Begins at the Hop," "Burning With Optimism's Flame" and "Making Plans for Nigel." http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=xtc

Crawdaddy: "Rock’s last great British post-punk eccentrics, XTC, (sorry, Blur), first assaulted American airwaves in 1979" http://crawdaddy.wolfgangsvault.com/Article/XTC-Explode-Together.html

WNEW.com: "The term post-punk goes back to the early eighties, when bands like the Psychedelic Furs, Joy Division, XTC, Echo and the Bunnymen and U2 started to branch out from punk and experiment with new sounds"

Guitar Player: "The Sex Pistols guitar sound was basically this blues guitar thing with a sneering attitude over the top," says Dave Gregory, former guitarist with post-punk pioneers XTC. "But people were oblivious to that. These punk bands were ridiculing people like Eric Clapton, when in fact the root of their sound was basic blues guitar."

NME: "Always one of the more interesting and innovative of the post-punk/pop crossover bands" http://www.nme.com/reviews/xtc/2361

1. 17 on "Guide to Post-Punk Greats": http://rateyourmusic.com/list/IanSchultz/a_quick_guide_to_the_post_punk_greats_/

About.com: 80s Music: "British post-punk could not have had a better representative than XTC, a band that did more for '80s pop and rock than arguably any other artist of the era." http://80music.about.com/od/top10list1/tp/80stopxtcsongs.htm

MTV.com: "Andy Partridge, the reclusive leader of the post punk pop band, XTC"

George Graham: "one of the most interesting bands to come out of the late 1970s punk and post-punk scene in England was XTC." http://georgegraham.com/reviews/xtcav2.html

Tower.com: "Beginning life as a British post-punk pop band in the late '70s, XTC eventually metamorphosed into a kind of New Wave Beatles" http://www.tower.com/upsy-daisy-assortment-xtc-cd/wapi/105769101

I could cite dozens more...

And of course, they are included in definitive post-punk compilation CDS: Rough Trade Shops - Post-Punk: http://www.amazon.com/Rough-Trade-Shops-Post-Punk/dp/B00009QEON Post Punk Primer: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Post-Punk-Primer-Various-Artists/dp/B000024UQK Nervous Tension - The EMI Post Punk Collection: http://www.amazon.com/Nervous-Tension/dp/B000VXW4ZA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226698766&sr=1-1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 21:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serious and experimental synhtpop artists?

I thought Post-punk was associated with genres like early indie, proto gothic and gothic. Magazine and The Cure sounded similar, but OMD with them! There are many doubts.

I like New Wave, but i can't say that "serious", experimental and creative electronic artists of the late 70's and early eighties (who i also like), like Numan and his Tubeway Army, John Foxx, early OMD, early Human League or Cabaret Voltaire were post-punk. They were synthpop (or cold wave as sometimes they are called). Throbbing Gristle are synthpop/industrial. Depeche Mode never were post-punk, they were always synthpop, and "gothic" only for wearing black from 1984-89. Japan never was post-punk, they were only experimenting with glam, synthpop, avant-garde and pop, although "Automatic Gun" can be the "father" of britpop (which for me is a "nothing to do with" post-punk).

Franco, your own personal view of post-punk is not reflective of what the term was actually used to describe, either back in the classic '77-84 period, or now. It is a very large and flexible genre. You should read some articles and books on the subject to gain better insight into why many different musical styles (including electronic music) were included... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 15:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Depeche Mode

Someone keeps questioning the inclusion of Depeche Mode here, and rather than just keep undoing the deletion, I am going to take the time to explain further. Call it synth-pop, call it experimental electronic, it's semantics. Whatever it is called, the early music of bands like Human League, OMD, Ultravox/John Foxx, Depeche Mode, Cab Volt, Soft Cell, Visage, Classix Nouveau, Fad Gadget, Yello, etc. has always been considered part of post-punk, which is a very elastic and non-homogenous genre. That's why all of those artists are listed here. To single out DM for deletion makes little musical or historical sense.

Read the post-punk bible "Rip It Up and Start Again" by Simon Reynolds and this will become evident, as they are a main part of Chapter 25. Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-84 is a celebration of what happened next--bands like Joy Division, Gang of Four, Wire, Contortions, Talking Heads, The Fall, Cabaret Voltaire, The Human League--who dedicated themselves to fulfilling punk's unfinished musical revolution. Based on over 125 interviews, Rip It Up offers a panoramic survey of the seven year period following punk, taking in everything from PIL to ABC to SST to ZTT, and dealing with genres including industrial, 2-Tone, synthpop, and goth.

Reynolds article in eMusic.com: Post-punk spun off genres such as goth, industrial and synth-pop, and its long-term legacy can be seen in the '90s techno-rave/electronica movement, the current post-punk revivalist scene (Franz Ferdinand, the Rapture, Bloc Party, etc.), and, not least, the individual careers of some of the biggest alt-rock artists of the last 25 years — the Cure, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Depeche Mode, New Order and U2.

As for DM in particular, I will list further evidence.

Wikipedia's own entry: Depeche Mode Origin Basildon, Essex, England Genre(s) Synthpop Post-punk New Wave Alternative dance

DepecheMode.com: As one of the most influential bands of the post-punk era...

MusicianGuide.com: Depeche Mode, a group of post-punk pop performers who broke new ground in the field of computer-assisted music during the 1980s...

PrefixMag.com: Depeche Mode was a staple 80s post-punk/synth-pop band that is somehow still making music, when most of their contemporaries have kicked the bucket

SputnikMusic.com: Taking elements from post-punk and applying them to the post-Kraftwerk synth music of the 80s, Depeche Mode were the quintessential alternative act of the late 80s.

SlantMagazine.com: In the 1980s, the influence of Kraftwerk and New Wave took the shape of radio-friendly post-punk synth-pop like Depeche Mode

Amazon.com category for Depeche Mode: Rock > Indie Rock & Punk > New Wave & Post-punk

Allmusic.com Post-Punk section, #17 on list of Top Post-Punk Artists: The Cure Devo Echo & the Bunnymen The Fall Gang of Four Joy Division New Order Pere Ubu The Saints Siouxsie and the Banshees Suicide Talking Heads Wire Adam Ant Bauhaus Cabaret Voltaire Depeche Mode

The 20 Greatest Post-Punk Artists of the 1980s© Jason C. Reeher 9) Depeche Mode They made tinker-toy keyboard music until primary songwriter Martin L. Gore found his true muse – the darkness within. Recommended LPs: 1986’s devastatingly bleak “Black Celebration.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 16:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Before deleting the DM entry AGAIN, it would seem to be only polite to discuss the matter here first. DM after all were on this list before you chose to delete it. The burden of proof (to delete) is on you, and I see no concrete response to all I posted above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Fasolino (talk • contribs) 16:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] P.K. 14 verified as post-punk via reliable sources. Do not revert.

• P.K. 14 verified as post-punk via reliable sources. Do not revert. Read the sources on the article. Your opinions are WP:OR; the sources on the article always and everywhere trump your WP:OR Ling.Nut (talk) 05:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Ling.Nut, please read the article. The list is for bands of the original post-punk movement, up to 1984. The list ENDS IN 1984. Modern post-punk bands (whether P.K. 14 is or not) are not listed here...there's lots of modern p-p bands, they are listed in the Post-Punk Revival section. If you want to list them there, go ahead, I don't care. But they don't belong as the only current/modern band in a list of bands from 1977-1984. Do you understand dating by years? You should read the article more carefully before being sarcastic with me. And yes, I've been a music journalist writing about post-punk for 25 years now.

• Meh. The section header (which I've just removed) is WP:OR. Verify it. Ling.Nut (talk) 10:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

They don't belong here. Post-punk refers to bands that played in a variety of styles influenced by punk between the late 1970s and mid-1980s. It isn't a style of music per se, and no band from the last 10 years is a "post-punk band".--Michig (talk) 11:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• I hear two (or possibly one) editor saying that. I see no verification. Got sources? Ling.Nut (talk) 11:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

See those cited in the article. Simon Reynolds' book is highly recommended - you'd get a good idea of what post-punk was all about by reading it.--Michig (talk) 11:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The article used to contain a separate section for the later post-punk influenced bands (see here) - this appears to have been deleted rather than moved to a separate list. Perhaps the content from there could be retrieved into a separate list and P.K.14 placed in that list? What is quite misleading these days when modern bands are referred to as "post-punk revival" or similar is that they are only influenced by a small part of the whole post-punk 'scene' - typically by bands such as Wire, Gang of Four, etc. or by bands better described as 'New Wave'. There was a lot more than that to post-punk. --Michig (talk) 11:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Ling: I will say this as kindly as possible. You are jumping in here, on a genre you clearly are not too familiar with, and being very antagonistic. Having a pushy attitude does no one any favors. As Michig also noted, there did used to be expanded lists here, covering bands of the late '80s and '90s that were influenced by post-punk, and the modern post-punk (post-punk revival) bands, of which P.K.14 might be listed. Someone else removed them awhile ago as there is a separate post-punk revival list (you do understand that we are talking about dating here, right?). There is a reason the dates are given as 1977-1984, and Michig also provided the literary references to back this up. Anyway, it seems that the most parsimonious solution would be simply to add back the expanded lists, which hopefully then would satisfy your urge to have this band listed, without making a mockery of the section by singling out one modern band to be crammed into a list of bands from an older era. I will do that, let's see how it goes. Sorry I forgot to sign; the above message was by me. Greg Fasolino (talk) 19:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)