Talk:List of transgender people

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Move this article[edit]

When I moved stuff (doesn't the page look clean now ;-) I found somebody had mentioned that "transgender" vs. "transgendered" sometime in 2004. (" When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88") I'd like to bring this up again; I personally think that this article should be a List of transgender people, without the obnoxious "-ed" at the end. Transgender was coined as an adjective, and I don't really think we say "homosexualed", or "lesbianed" or even "transsexualed", either. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This article and List of transgender people had merge tags on them (and had for a while), directing toward this article, so I merged them a few weeks ago. This article was, far and away, the more complete of the two; there was very little actual merging that I had to do. I guess I probably should have merged/redirected the other way, huh? Personally, to have the -ed or not, it doesn't make any difference to me, but then I apparently don't take quite as hard a line WRT terminology as it seems a lot of transpeople do. — Wwagner 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
What's "WRT"? And what does my question have to do with the fact that I am transgender? I merely suggest putting the article under a title I think is a lot better, for the reason stated. That was no criticism of your action or anything, I don't think I ever saw the List of transgender people at all. -- 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My comment was not meant as any kind of attack. I'm not out to get the trans community or anybody in it - I'm trans too. But to return to the name change topic, I guess put me down for an abstain due to no preference. Oh, and WRT is "with respect to". — Wwagner 21:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
We really need to work on our communication - neither was I intending to insult or attack (or anything) you, nor you me. Which is kinda nice ;-) I also don't really take a hard line here, if I would, I would have moved the article. Guess we need a few more votes then ;-) -- AlexR 23:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I've heard this objection to transgendered before; I say go ahead and move the page, as it seems you are not the only one bothered by it. However, personally I don't have any problem with the -ed, and think the "lesbianed' analogy is a wilful misreading of English grammar. "-ed" can serve a few different gramatical funcitons, one of which is simple past tense for a verb, as in "who transgendered them?", which relies on an understanding of "to transgender" as a verb, and therefore "transgendered" as a past participle. I believe people see "to transgender" as a verb about as readily as they see "to lesbian" as one — i.e. not very much. A better analogy is "the brown-haired woman"; do we ask "who brown-haired her"? A "brown-hair woman" is considered non-standard. Some compound adjectives have multiple standard forms: eg "a v-neck jumper" or "v-necked jumper". The same can be said for "an intersex/intersexed/intersexual person", and (I propose) a transgender/transgendered person. Google finds 106,000 hits for "transgendered person" and 78,400 for "transgender person"; interestingly, the ratio is reversed for "transgender people" (810,000) and "transgendered people" (444,000). ntennis 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Transgender vs. transsexual and others[edit]

I saw that somebody had replaced a lot of "transsexual", "transwoman", "transmen" with "transgendered". It already is reverted, but reminded me whether we are really certain, in all cases where "transsexual" is used, whether "transsexual" is really the correct description (might concern other descriptions as well). I noticed for example:

  • Kate Bornstein, transsexual/gendered author, playwright, performance artist and gender theorist
    • Given that on Kate's site she uses gender-neutral pronouns for hirself, I think it is fairly safe to say that "transsexual" is plainly wrong
  • Mara Keisling, transsexual/gendered, founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. Key leader in passing several laws protecting transgender people. www.nctequality.org
    • The website mentioned says: "Mara is a transgender-identified woman" [1]

So while changing "transwoman" and "transmen" to "transgendered" hardly did the article any service, some of the changes to "transgender" (forget that obnoxious -ed) seemed to have been correct. I suspect some more of the "transsexual" attributions are not quite correct, either. So I suggest we check out those again. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It is offensive to refer to TSs (mainstream women wrongly born with a birth defect giving them male parts and the need to correct it) as TGs (the political grouping and chosen lifestyle of daily cross-dressing without surgery), or to lump TSs (gender conformists) with the TGs (gender variant). Why not use what the folks call themselves? 72.11.40.181 (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Transsexuals are referred to as transgender because, as the transgender article explains, it is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals. I personally know quite a few transsexuals including some who are 20+ years post op. Not one of them objects to the term transgender. If there is a region-specific alternate definition of transgender that specifically excludes transsexuals, please provide a reliable reference for that alternate definition at talk:transgender so that article can be altered to include it. Articles such as this one would then inevitably change to acknowledge that alternate definition. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Entry definitions too vague[edit]

The entry defines anyone who is: transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, androgynous, cross-dressers, transvestites, drag queens, drag kings, or hermaphroditic. Isn't that a bit unfocused? Androgynous and drag queens and trangender individual are all over the board. One could count RuPaul Charles, Ziggy Stardust, Placebo's Brian Molko and Alexis Arquette as all valid additions. I would never consider any of these people truly "transgender." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navstar (talkcontribs) 11 May 2006

First of all, kindly sign your entries next time. Second, what now? No more "truly transsexual" wars, but now the brand new "truly transgender" ones? And you misquote -- what you list is a list of possible self-identifications, but the definition given is "people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned" which most obviously is transgender. So your point was? -- AlexR 23:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a distinct difference between a person who identifies as transgender vs. a person who performs gender drag. I plan to remove all entries that, in their detail, designate the entered person as "Drag queen". Transgenderism, or gender dysphoria, is a mental condition that can have physical manifestations (dressing the way one/society perceives the lived gender to, taking hormones, election of gender reassignment via surgery-- which falls into the transsexual classification). But a person (like Shirley Q. Liquor, for instance) who is a man who dresses in drag for entertainment's sake, or for sexual pleasure, and not because it's a dire lifestyle and physical/mental health choice is NOT transgender. They are then "drag _______" or transvestites. I'm not an expert, but I lived with about 6 transgendered people at one time, and I got a crash course in the technicalities of living as a transgender person. Folks really need to do their research.--James gang
Erm, you've confused your terminology - transgenderism is not gender dysphoria. That's transsexualism. Transgenderism is a broad catchall group, which includes, as well as transsexuals, drag queens, crossdressers, and a host of similar groups. This is why they're on this list. Rebecca 03:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
That's just plain wrong. Transgenderism in most usages I've seen is synynoymous with transexualism. Either way, it's not a "broad catchall group" that's so broad as to necessarily include drag queens and crossdressers. According to Merriam-Webster's definition, transgender is "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth." By that definition drag queens and crossdressers are not transgender if they do not identify as the opposite gender into which they were born, but rather crossdress for some other reason.
James gang is correct. Just because someone crossdresses that doesn't necessarily mean they're transgender, even it's for sexual gratification.
For example, Jeanne Baré is on this list, yet according to Wikipedia's own article on her she was born a woman and it refers to her as female throughout. It also implies she merely crossdressed for financial reasons.
I agree that the parameters for this list are too broad.--Dekker451 (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Are you SURE about that?

Gender identity disorder From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Gender dysphoria)

Gender identity disorder, as identified by psychologists and medical doctors, is a condition in which a person has been assigned one gender (usually at birth on the basis of their sex, but compare intersexuality), but identifies as belonging to another gender, or does not conform with the gender role their respective society prescribes to them. It is a psychiatric term for what is widely known by terms like transsexuality, transgender and (subject to debate, but full-fledged GID is present in at least some cases of) transvestism or cross-dressing.

This feeling is usually reported as "having always been there", although in some cases, it seems to appear in adolescence or even in adulthood, and it has been reported by some as intensifying over time. Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behaviour, it often results in significant problems for those affected, and sometimes for their close friends and family members as well. In many cases, discomfort is also reported as stemming from the feeling that one's body is "wrong" or meant to be different.

See also: List of transgender-related topics

Yes, whether or not transexualism should be considered a disorder is up for debate in the psychology community, but whether crossdressing in and of itself (as distinct from transvestism) is considered a disorder is not up for debate. No psychological condition is considered a disorder unless it adversely affects one's social or work lives for for a significant period of time and the fact is crossdressing isn't a problem for many people.--Dekker451 (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


...transgenderism + gender dysphoria could manifest physically as transsexualism. The problem of including "drag" and "cross-dressing" without limits into this discussion is that the performative impulse is not rooted in "settling a score" within oneself about gender. In the case of cross-dressing, there is likely no motivation to physically change one's gender, or to live as the opposite gender, but instead, there being satisfaction in just dressing the part. There may be a fetishistic interest in dressing opposite. Or, for entertainment's sake. I doubt that transgender folks would want to have their life choice lumped in with those of folks who entertain others as caricatures of the opposite sex, etc. blah blah blah.--James gang

Dana Moran[edit]

Is there a source about this person? I can't find anything about him/her on Google. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Section titles[edit]

It appears that the section titles need a little work; we seem to be picking up a lot of living individuals, which belong in "Living individuals" of course, in the "20th and 21st century individuals" section. It's probably just people not actually reading all of the section titles before they post (Hanlon's razor at work here), but having to move all the misplaced entries, well, it shouldn't have to happen. I have added some comments in the markup, but half the time people don't read those either. We should probably rename the 20th/21st section to something else, to denote that the people in that section are dead, but I'm not sure what it should be. "Deceased transpeople"? "Deceased individuals"? "Past transpeople"? Those are just off the top of my head, but none of them sounds very good. — Wwagner 05:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's another thought: why don't we just put everybody in one list, and include the birth year (and death year, if dead) for each entry? That's not unlike the lists of birth and death dates in each year article (see 1962, for a random example). And some of the descriptions are a little out of hand in this list; the nationality and a few of the major occupations of the person is enough. Putting the subject's life story, however abbreviated, and all their abilities, no matter how minor, is something for the article on that person, not this list. Each person's article is a mere click away, so there's no need to replicate a bunch of it here. Here are a few examples, a couple from each of the major sections of real people:
The non-list blurb at the start of Earlier historical individuals can be moved to the top and reworked a bit, to keep that content. Comments, please? — Wwagner 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Mike Hernandez[edit]

The link that you have to Mike Hernandez is wrong. You've linked an LA city councilman who I can assure you is not the person you refer to.

How do I know this?

I happen to be the Mike Hernandez in question - please see http://www.otherbear.com

Thanks!

Queen Christina?[edit]

I will only say that I find it an excessively slender thread that connects Queen Christina in any shape or form to our modern concept of transgendered people. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 13:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Grayson Perry[edit]

Grayson Perry is surely a transvestite and not a transsexual? Haydn01 15:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the impression his article seems to give. --Kiranna 07:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, and your point is...? There are other cross-dressers on this list as well. There are more facets of transgendered behaviour than just transsexuality. — Wwagner 17:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Transgender describes fetishtic transvestites, transsexuals and cross-dressers, as well transgenderists, androgynists, gender chameleons and anything in between - it's a bit of a catch-all term, I'm afraid.
I suppose the real point is should there be a List of transsexual people as oppsed to transgender.
Cheers Lwollert 08:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

David Reimer[edit]

Wikipedia has an article on David Reimer, aka John/Joan, a famous case of failed infant gender reassignment after a botched circumcision destroyed his penis. I think that there should be a link to that page somewhere on this one. Mang 23:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was born as a man, identified as a man, and ended his life as a man. Rebecca 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
David reimer would not have qualified under DSM-IV criteria for transsexualism, as he had a concurrent intersex condition - a condition that occured through medical error (circuscision error) followed up with medical mismanagement (although, at the time, John Money was well respected, and thought he was doing the right thing.)
So no, David doesn't belong here (poor man :( ) Lwollert 08:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

my edits[edit]

oops, ignore me. I apparantly was wrong about my terminology. Reverting myself. Kuronue 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Living Musicians?[edit]

Do we really need this category? Lwollert 01:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It looked like vandalism, so I reverted it. Somebody who doesn't like Nickelback's lead singer, I guess. — Wwagner 01:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below, and above at #Move this article. There was already a non-trivial history at List of transgender people from an old merge, so I swapped the two histories. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


List of transgendered peopleList of transgender people – Everything I want to say has already been said in the above section Move this article. I'm just formally nominating this list to be moved. Kolindigo 07:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Support - Appropriate simplification and goes according to WP:NAME Cheers! Lauren/ 07:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments

  • Actually, can we change it to list of transsexual people? Transgendered is really too broad for term for what people who end up on this article are looking for. I don't think when people come to this article they're looking for drag kings. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 07:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
    • There's every possibility that somebody may very well come to this article looking for drag kings. Please read the Wikipedia policy of NPOV; limiting this list to only transsexuals seems fairly biased. The list, as it is now, reinforces the reality that the transgender community is a very diverse group, and there are many different modes of transgender expression. — Wwagner 04:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I'd rather not. I'm proposing a minor name change, not a change in the subject of the list. I think transsexual vs transgender is a seperate issue. Kolindigo 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    • RE: Dev920, It's a list of transgender people, which is FAR from limited to transsexual people. I've already suggested a seperate list above, but no-one has comented on it. I disagree this list should be deleted to make a transsexual only list, and support the name change/move Cheers! Lauren/ 07:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Larry (Linda) Wachowski is not in the list[edit]

we should add that name to the list, it has already been confirmed, and there are a lot of reliable soucres which states that Larry wachowski is now a transsexual named Linda Wachowski. Can I add the name to the list? check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Until it's confirmed by Wachowski, it is not appropriate. As far as i can see from a fairly basic Search it's still rumors and gossip - and has been since 2003. Cheers! Lauren/ 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
i though it was already confirmed, lol, maybe i´ll have to search more.

anyway, i´ll stay alert about wachowski and look for more info, ok? :-)check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 23:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Found something http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachowsky#Transgender_claims

We should add her i think—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.192.3.133 (talk) 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a valid source for citation. Furthermore, all the external articles linked from Wachowski brothers involving Larry's supposed transition are collections of hearsay and speculation. Until we see some sort of press release, or Wachowski posting something hirself, it's not appropriate. — Wwagner 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Reorganization[edit]

I've been toying around with a reorganization of this list of people; the way they're divided up now seems kinda artificial. I think we can streamline the list quite a bit by combining all the real people into one list, and have the birth (and death) years listed for each person. The fictional folks have a couple of other articles where they can be listed, most particularly Transgender in film and television and Cross-dressing in film and television - a lot of the fictional people here are already in those articles, and can probably just be removed from this list. The literature, mythology, and video game transfolk should probably go to (an)other article(s) as well, but I'm not really sure where. A new article could always be created, say Transgender in literature; the currently-existent Transgender publications doesn't quite work for that kind of information. Please take a look at the test page I've been working on and let me know what you think. — Wwagner 04:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I disagree with the deletion of the "fictional" section though - but perhaps it would be better to merge those articles (which are essentially lists, not proper articles) into this one? THe other difference, is this list deals with "people" whereas the other articles talk about the "films" more than people.
Cheers! Lauren/ 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. I agree on the focus of those other articles, though the focus can certainly be, shall we say "redirected". :) The reason I was thinking that a split would be more practical than a merge, is that this article seems to be two lists in one right now. The list of fictional people feels kludged on to me. Don't get me wrong: I definitely think that it's useful and informative to have those fictional people listed, but I'm just not sure that this article is the best place for it. I've got a couple other ideas for arrangements of the fictitious people; I'll toy with them when I get a chance later tonight. And you (or anybody else) are certainly welcome to mess with that sandbox page if you like; that's what it's there for. — Wwagner 23:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
If you start reorganizing this, perhaps you could also start with sourcing some entries, since this list is almost completely unsourced. See also WP:BLP. Garion96 (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Started referencing, pending reorganising, at User:Lwollert/Sandbox/List of transgender people - feel free to edit there. Along the way, I seem to be sorting out a lot of the bio pages as well, when hunting reasonable citations. It's amazing how much is "General knowledge" but not actually written down somewhere (I'm thinking of Allenina) Cheers! Lauren/ 03:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Progress has been good so far: over 120 references have been found between Wwagner and I (mostly er). It's at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. Cheers! Lauren/ 04:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lauren and I have finished up with the rework and referencing of this article. Our version is at User:Wwagner/sandbox2. If nobody's got any objections, I'd like to replace the current main article with the reworked version in a couple days. — Wwagner 00:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Tables[edit]

Wow. Last I checked this list it was awful - it looks great now. Does anyone object if we convert this to table format and put pictures down the side per the LGB lists? And has anyone gone through our transgendered categories and added all the people there? DevAlt 14:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't say that I'm terribly excited by the layout of the rest of the LGB lists of people. They seem awfully busy and cluttered to my eye. I am a big proponent of the KISS principle. And I don't think anybody's gone through all (any?) the trans cats for possible additions. Sounds like a job I can do in my copious spare time. :) — Wwagner 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Two people who need to be added to this list: Barbara Amesbury and Patricia Araujo. And now I've listed them here, I can remove them from the to be sorted list... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

And Jeanne Baré. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Added Amesbury and Baré. Can't find a source for Araujo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

More:

  1. Rafaelly Carneiro
  2. Albert Cashier
  3. Camilla de Castro
  4. Candis Cayne
  5. Charlotte Charke
  6. Hadden Clark
  7. Leslie Cochran
  8. Carmen Cruz
  9. Paul Denyer
  10. Robert Eads
  11. Bülent Ersoy
  12. Jamie Fenton
  13. Danielle Foxxx
  14. Marie France
  15. Francis García
  16. Delisa Newton
  17. Sister Paula Nielsen
  18. Kaúxuma Núpika
  19. Abubakar Hamza
  20. Rebecca Heineman
  21. Kananda Hickman
  22. Diana Hignutt
  23. Charlotte von Mahlsdorf
  24. Michelle Kosilek

- Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Bands or groups?[edit]

There was the recent addition of Lady (group) to this list. While they're certainly trans, and are certainly notable as a group, and each of the members would individually belong in this list (provided notability, etc.), do they belong here collectively? My gut feeling is 'no', but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it. Do other List of <blah> people articles have groups in them? — Wwagner 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Barry Humphries[edit]

Barry Humphries is not transgender/transexual -- he is a comedian, one of whose characters is the fictitious Dame Edna -- this does not mean he is transgender. Propose to delete him from this list. --ukexpat 14:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. We do include crossdressers and drag queens on this list, and I'd say that doing comedy in drag is close enough to doing cabaret performances in drag as makes no real difference - they're performace arts, while crossdressed. Similarly, Flip Wilson's Geraldine Jones persona is in this list, though in the film and tv section. — Wwagner 17:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
OK so in that case the list should include every single male comedian or actor who has performed in a female role, including all the Monty Python team, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett, Les Dawson and countless others.--ukexpat 20:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Crossdressing/Drag/ is NOT the same as transgendered. A transgendered person sees themselves literally as something other than what they are born as. A Drag act is a "performance" and is not to be taken seriously. To include Crossdressing and Drag/Comedians in this area is damaging to Transgendered issues, please ammend this. A "regular" MTF transgendered person is unlikely to appear anything like a Drag Queen, as a Drag Queen is an exaggeration for comic purposes. A transgendered person who undergoes transition does so because it is extremely important and meaningful to them, and it is not a joke. This is highly sensitive and should be treated as so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.94.195 (talk) 16:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Crossdressing and drag are within the umbrella term transgender. You appear to be confusing transgender and transsexual. The latter are also within the umbrella of the term transgender. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 04:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Eddie Izzard[edit]

Izzard is not on the list, yet he is in LGBT categories due to his crossdressing. He often performs stand-up comedy in drag, as himself. That is different to the comedians named in the section above who only play(ed) female characters, plus many male characters which do not require crossdressing. Werdnawerdna (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Add one more...[edit]

Please add Adam/Madeleine Blaustein, the voice actor/ress in Pokémon. RocketMaster (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC) BTW, she died. RocketMaster (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Should add Amanda Simpson, Senior Technical Adviser to the Department of Commerce, appointed by the Obama Administration and the first openly transgender woman political appointee in any administration. She is listed as such on site, but not listed here. I am newly registered, though, and do not feel comfortable with just going ahead and editing before I feel more comfortable w. culture and rules in the community. However, Simpson is widely known for her activist work in the U.S. and also fairly known abroad. Her being appointed to the role as an Obama Administration Adviser got a lot of media coverage at the time, as well. idaadara (talk) 09:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Maddie Blaustein was added a while back. I've added Amanda Simpson, with ref. Feel free to add items, idaadara, but make sure they have references :) You may also want to take a gander at WP:LGBT? Welcome! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Does Ozma belong?[edit]

There has been a few years of back and forth at Talk:Princess Ozma as to whether Ozma actually qualifies as transgender, because she changes sex but does not seem to ever have transgender identity. Currently this page is inconsistent with Princess Ozma, with one person consistently reverting Category:Fictional LGBT characters -- either this page or that one should change. This could affect other fictional characters such as Ranma Saotome, although he has somewhat different issues. I am hoping to establish consensus on this one way or another at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Is_Princess_Ozma_LGBT? Please join the discussion there, since it would be nice to develop a policy on classifying fictional characters. -- Kevin Saff (talk) 00:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Transgender versus drag and transvest[edit]

Please note that this list should not contain drag performers or transvestites as there is a major difference between drag and transgenderism; that being that drag performers and transvestites do not consistently identify themselves as the gender opposite of their chromosomes as transgendered people do.

I agree. This issue has been discussed several times on this talk page, but never resolved. Yes, "transgender" is an umbrella term, but I think the scope of this list should be limited to people who live their lives as the opposite gender to how they were born. To include drag of various degrees (from situational like John Cleese to integral like Eddie Izzard) is a long path that will result in this list becoming very long - and it also deprives those who live as another gender fair recognition as having unique identity. However, I am against the use of "transsexual" because it implies someone who has completed SRS; I think "transgender" is perfectly suitable, with the understanding that drag/transvestite persons belong on their own list. -Etoile (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Courtney Act is a drag performer, not a Transgendered person.[edit]

Courtney Act is a stage name of a performer by the name of Shane Jenek. He is a gay man who is a drag queen and a performer and by having his "Drag" name on here weakens issues for Transgendered people, most of who would (probably) like to lead rather normal lives rather than appear as an over the top drag queen. Please edit this if possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.94.195 (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Red links[edit]

Just a procedural question: should a person have a Wikipedia article before they are added to this list? It seems reasonable to me that if a person it not notable enough to merit an article, they are not notable enough to merit inclusion in this list. Thoughts? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a guideline someplace on WP for this situation, but I have this feeling people are added to the list, with a passing reference, and they have no notability otherwise. I'd be in favor of removing redlinks - maybe with a caveat that a redlink with more than one RS available could stay. Just my opinion :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
That it my thought too, with the modification that if two references are available, then there probably should be an article, which solves the problem. This question came to mind with the recent edits to the list. Thanks for the input. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree that 2 good references, showing both notability and transgender status, are probably enough. i think the standard is "if there is a reasonable likelihood that an article could be written". of course, the name doesnt need to be redlinked, just needs the refs and can stay as regular text if it looks better. And on this note, would Victoria Kolakowski qualify for inclusion on this list? she is already of some small notability, and won the primary in june in california to be the democratic candidate for alameda county superior court judge. She is likely to win the position, but is she notable enough now?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You need to add several people to the list. PHYLLIS RANDOLPH FRYE, attorney, author, activist, professor, judge Sources: Firm Website: http://www.liberatinglaw.com/ Personal Email: PRFrye@aol.com Personal Website: http://www.transgenderlegal.com/

ALLY WINDSOR HOWELL, J.D., LL.M., attorney, author, activist, professor Sources: Author Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure Annotated, 4th (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/128292/22012629/productdetail.aspx AuthorTrial Handbook for Alabama Lawyers, 3d (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/141476/14676777/productdetail.aspx Author Tilley's Alabama Equity, 4th Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/14525/40120977/productdetail.aspx Author Personal Injury and Torts (Alabama Practice Series) Reference Verification http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/2070/13503947/productdetail.aspx Author Alabama Civil Practice Forms, Fourth Edition Reference Verification http://www.lexisnexis.com/store/catalog/booktemplate/productdetail.jsp?pageName=relatedProducts&skuId=SKU6563&catId=110&prodId=6563 Biographical information http://west.thomson.com/store/authorbio2.aspx?R=128292&Product_id=22012629&MaterialNumber=22012629&AuRec=2000002021Auth Attorney verification http://www.alabar.org/directory/dirDisplay.cfm?URLId=6i2x0Z3LLg7W0PAp&-;IWes

VICTORIA KOLAKOWSKI, Judge Superior County of Alameda County, California Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Kolakowski

KATRINA C. ROSE, attorney, author, professor, historian Source: http://translegalhistory.info/ http://www.translegalhistory.info/basics/index.html

REV. ERIN SWENSON, Th.M., Ph.D., psychologist, pastor, activist Sources: http://www.erinswen.com/Counseling.htm http://www.religiondispatches.org/contributors/erinkswenson/

ALYSON DODI MEISELMAN, attorney, activist Sources: http://www.martindale.com/Alyson-Dodi-Meiselman/636044-lawyer.htm http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/20878-md-alyson-meiselman-518250.html

DIANA LYNN LANGTON, educator, spiratulist Sources: http://www.scribd.com/diana_langton

PAMELA BARRES, activist, retired Eastman Kodak executive Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gayalliance/5695849207/

VANESSA EDWARDS FOSTER, Transgender Rights Activist, Co-Founder and former President of the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition, President, Texas Gender Advocacy & Information Network Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vanessa-edwards-foster

REV. SARAH J. HERWIG, minister Sources: http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/02/10/Church_Lesbian_Wedding_Not_Violation/ http://mikefurchesreviews.blogspot.com/2010/10/interview-with-transgender-pastor.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllyHowell (talkcontribs) 17:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Few, if any of those sources count as reliable on Wikipedia. However, Victoria Kolakowski could be added now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Redlinks redux[edit]

An edit caught my eye, so I went through and removed a number of entries with redlinks, based on previous consensus that inclusion on this list requires sufficient notability for there to be an article for that person. I noticed several people on the list who have no link: the names appear in unmarked-up text. Some have references, some do not. I'm inclined to treat the nolinks the same as the redlinks: if the person is not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article, they are not sufficiently notable for getting listed. Feedback? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 05:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup, December 2012[edit]

I have gone through and removed a couple of people who did not have articles linked to them. My reasoning is simple: this list is intended to list notable people who are transgendered, not just anyone who is transgendered. If a person is sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia article, with sufficient reliable, third-party sources to substantiate both the notability and transgendered identity of the person, then please write the article first before adding the person back in.

Later today or tomorrow, I will be going through and either adding at least one supporting reference as required by the article's guidelines, or removing the entry. Thank you for your understanding. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 21:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Article titles for transgendered people[edit]

This discussion may be of interest to readers of this talk page. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"transgender in identity or behavior. "[edit]

What on earth does "transgender in behavior" mean? Tombomp (talk/contribs) 15:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Herculine Barbin[edit]

Can I ask why Herculine Barbin is listed here as a transgender person? Her birth assigned sex is consistently referenced, as she was reassigned male involuntarily and she later took her own life. Under similar circumstances we don't reference Alan Turing as an ex-gay. Trankuility (talk) 02:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Removing, on the same basis as the removal of David Reimer, per earlier discussion on talk page. Trankuility (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


Bruce Jenner[edit]

Someone can be transgender without being transsexual. While Jenner has not completely transformed, Jenner is, nonetheless, transgender. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 01:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)