Talk:List of unusual deaths

Is having a heart attack after falling off a horse unusual?

First, dying of a heart attack after a fall is not unusual. A Google search brings up many hits, with victims of all ages falling from all kinds of things. Second, I'm concerned that this fits the same mould as "unusual" industrial accidents; Drowning in chocolate, ground into sausage, and so on. Or the "unusualness" of the particular metal poured down someone's throat. Heart attacks are common. Falling off horses is common. Having argued all that, Kinnear didn't fall and have a heart attack on camera as the entry implied. He fell and broke his pelvis and was taken to hospital. Kinnear, a heavy man, suffered a heart attack in the hospital the next day. Dying of a heart attack while lying in a hospital bed is definitely not unusual. --JeffJ (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

A fat man has a fall, is taken to hospital, and subsequently dies of a heart attack. That's not unusual at all -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

A well-known actor has a fall while riding a horse as part of a feature film because the stunt-man failed to turn up, and dies as a result. That's very unusual. Grutness...wha? 02:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It's the death itself that needs to be unusual, not the string of coincidences surrounding it or the profession of the victim. If we went with that approach, every death is unique - "He was a chiropodist who was hit by a bus, while wearing odd socks, walking backwards, and smoking a pipe - that doesn't happen every day". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Wearing odd socks?!?!?! We should definitely include it! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, if yopu say so. No point in arguing with someone being flippant anyway. Grutness...wha? 00:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)"

In what way was my explanation "flippant"? --JeffJ (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the problem is my flippant add-on, which contributed nothing useful. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Okay. The comment was "attached" to mine so I though he/she thought I was being flippant, which I can be at times. --JeffJ (talk) 19:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd assumed it was my example that was seen as flippant - but reductio ad absurdum is a respectable form of argument -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:12, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Should this page exist?

This whole page is entirely subjective, suffers from ineradicable POV problems, and appears set to expand to an unmanageable size. Must there be a "list of unusual deaths", or should they merely be mentioned on the articles about the persons involved? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 00:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you about the inherently subjective nature of the list and that we shouldn't have subjective articles such as this. But the place to discuss this question is WP:AFD, not a RfC. Since the article has been kept at multiple AfD's in the past, I doubt that another one would be worth the effort. Wikipedia is weird about the inclusion of trivial "just for fun" lists... ThemFromSpace 01:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The merits of this article have been discussed before. Rather than a copy/paste, take a look at the archives. --JeffJ (talk) 02:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure some of the material in the archived discussions is very relevant. But the issue is not one of "delete of not delete." In most developed countries, certainly in UK, surely there are safety statistics that show how rare certain death events really are? Or would use of these constitute WP:OR? The addition of automobile deaths seem to be particularly popular, but also seem to be particularly intractable. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The issue comes down to whether the death was unusual. For example, being decapitated by a sheet of metal is unusual, but not for the purposes of this article, because we cannot breakdown every death into its minutia and differentiate between individual objects that cause the death. Otherwise we start filling the article with motorist deaths from sheet metal, bolts, fire extinguishers, wheel hubs, etc. This is the same rational discussed above with industrial accidents. Inclusion is often subjective, but we strive for editor consensus and we try to maintain a strict standard for sourcing each entry. Safety stats from a reliable source are not original research, and can help editors reach consensus. --JeffJ (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

"Unusual" is not something that can be measured on an objective scale. Trying to find something numerical that can be used as a "keep or not" guide is hopeless. This page will always be a collection of subjective opinions by fallible humans.

Lots and lots of people over the years have been frustrated by that fact, as the six (six!) AfD attempts have demonstrated. But lots and lots of people over the years have found the page worthwhile enough to keep despite its inherent flaws, as the AfD debates demonstrate. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:32, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I am confusing infrequency with novelty (= "unusualness")? I'm sure that, in most cases, reference to national statistics would indeed be hopeless, because they do not carry enough detail/ granularoty. But I was thinking of this example (prompted by the source given for Linda Riojas (1978), now deleted). Let's say that Ms Riojas' death was not unusal, because it's "Not unusual to be killed by stuff falling off other vehicles". But if we knew that there were on average 200 road miles driven in cars in the USA every week, would the same accident suffered by a motorcyclist be deemed more unusual if we also knew that, on average, there were only 20 road miles ridden by cyclists every week? What of bicycles, unicycles, skateboards, rollerskates, etc etc. Or is any reference to statistical frequency just a waste of time? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally I think it's hopeless, largely for practical reasons. Even if a killed-by-stuff-from-other-vehicles is very, very rare in terms of miles-driven, it happens perhaps once every week somewhere in the US. Are we going to add 52 new items to this article every year about it, just from America? No, of course not.

"Novelty" is a good word for how to think about it. The circumstances of the death should be virtually unique in history due to some twist, so to speak, to be included. But that's an inherently subjective standard, I think. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

..perhaps .. somewhere .. virtually .. so to speak .. and I used to think that music articles were subjective! haha. I guess all we have got to go on here is consensus. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:32, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It is subjective, but with guidelines. Nobody's ever set specific parameters for unusualness, such as X-number of occurrences in a given period of time, but we do consider how many entries would be added if the uniqueness bar is lowered. DavidWBrooks and I have made the point about breaking down an event too finely until all events become unique or unusual. That's the tricky part. On its broadest scale, being murdered is nowhere near to being unusual, nor is drowning, but being murdered by someone who forces you to swim until you drown is unusual. Now if this happened, say, 100 times, it's still very unusual statistically considering all the drowning deaths throughout history, but we wouldn't add 100 entries. We 'might' add one of the hundred if it stood apart... like if the victim was a celebrity or the victim hired someone to prevent him from getting out of the pool as a way of committing suicide. It's a very fine line sometimes, but that's what consensus is for. And who says Wikipedia can't be fun?--JeffJ (talk) 21:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

(I have previously asked about the relative unusualness of murder compared with accidental death. I'm not sure the answer was clear. But hey, who says mortality statistics can't be fun!? (.. um plenty, I suspect)). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this is a trivial just for fun list. While it is interesting, it's premise is a bit like the "Darwin Awards". It more trivia than encyclopedic. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a good excuse to mention (again, sorry) one of my favorite bits of Wikipedia history: This article was created in 2004 as List of people who died with tortoises on their heads because of the story that Aeschylus ws killed when an eagle dropped a tortoise on him. I deleted it, thinking it was a joke (article deletion was a lot more casual back then) but the creator returned it. The result was the first AfD debate about this weird little piece, and its morphing into this article. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Should this article only have entries where the secondary sources call the manner of death unusual? Perhaps. Or, should this article merely have reliable sources to document the unusual death? This second approach moves us away from the ideal Wikipedia article. Is this article of interest to many Wikipedia readers? I think so. I found it interesting. Wikipedia serves its readers by helping them think. I found this list quite thought inspiring. A Wikipedia guideline when other guidelines fail is "break the rules." If Wikipedia's interests are well-served and a consensus of editors agree, then it stands as part of Wikipedia's ways. Wikipedia is not like a regular encyclopedia in certain ways; such as allowing anyone to edit and input their ideas into the process. drs (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

There are deaths that notable and influential people have considered unusual, such as the one I added to this page which a certain editor keeps removing because in his personal opinion it's not unusual enough. I think this page should stay if there's good documentation of unusual claims. Shii (tock) 00:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

My argument is that "personal opinion" is the essence of this page, for better or worse - that there is no objective documentation, standard, or measurement that can label a death "unusual" or not unusual. It will always be subjective decisions by editors. If you want to discuss your particular case, do so here, and see if others want to contribute to the consensus. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 02:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I have precisely proven that it is not "only" personal opinion by providing reliable sources. I can see why you would want to remove that if you are arguing that there is no such thing as a reliable and citable cultural indication of whether a death is unusual. Shii (tock) 03:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

First, calling another editor, who is acting in good faith, "a twit" is not appropriate behaviour. As for sources referring to Henry I's death as unusual, it's subjective to the authors. What the editors of this article might consider unusual is going to be vastly different from biographer's definition. We're writing a global article on a broad spectrum of deaths; the historian, presumably, is writing about King Henry. We also don't know the context. For example: Does the historian think food poisoning an unusual death for British monarchs? Is food poisoning from eels unusual? And in what time period is the historian writing? A writer in 1920 might well describe dying in a plane crash as an "unusual" death, but not today. If Henry had died from over-eating, rather than food-poisoning, then we could make a case for inclusion, as that might be an unusual death (a quick Google didn't turn up anyone recorded as eating to death). --JeffJ (talk) 17:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(Yes, it would have been very unusual, as I'm sure eels are banned, even on Virgin Atlantic). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

And here I was thinking Henry II of France's death was far more "unusual". He died from a splinter of a broken lance entering his helmet visor during a joust at his daughter's wedding party, and his opponent in the list was the captain of his own personal guard. It's an incident that may well have helped end the "sport of kings" and is well heeded by medieval combat reenactors today. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 11:56, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

.. they must get very wet and dirty, acting in reens? How do you get a horse in there anyway! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I almost forgot, I actually came here to ask about notability guidelines. Should inclusion be restricted to those cases where either the subject or the incident has an existing article? There is probably an answer somewhere in the archives, but I'm not a very avid fisherman. Maybe some sort of inclusion guidelines should be left up top where they are accessible to all right here on the talk page. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 12:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

.. not a good fisherman, eh? A bit like Bandō Mitsugorō VIII? But yes, I have often pondered that as well. But then I guessed that if an unusual death was the only notable thing about a person then this should prevent them ever having their own article (- see the note at top of this article about coverage)? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

No, more like Dave Rundall, captain of the Arctic Rose. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 00:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Gosh, haha. I see what you mean. How tragic Martinevans123 (talk) 13:25, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

*Oppose The list shouldn't exist in its current form. A list of unusual deaths for notable people would be fine. Or perhaps a list of notably bizarre deaths could survive (e.g. with substantial media coverage).Gsonnenf (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

*Support The list should continue in its current form. The unusual deaths of notable people are an acceptable price to pay for the truly notable bizarre deaths of unknowns. (For me this wiki-Aladdin's cave should have cases with as little media coverage as possible - in fact, global media coverage might be a very good reason for exclusion. Apologies for the deliberately contrary stance). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. The list will not be deleted as a result of a !vote here - it would need to be taken to WP:AFD -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Henry I of England

I have provided two reliable sources that this death is unusual; it is now up to you to provide two or more claiming that it is not unusual. I can't wait to hear Wikipedians explain how their opinions are more important than those of Hume. Shii (tock) 15:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Is that how we are doing it now? Gigs (talk) 15:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how else to judge this in an objective way. That Henry I's entry has been removed repeatedly is unbelievable to me. I mean, this is one of the hallmarks of English history, and its notability is beyond dispute; I encourage the dissenters to pick up a copy of 1066 and All That. Shii (tock) 15:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the fact that Henry was "peculiarly fond of" lampreys is more unusual than the fact that he died from food poisoning after eating them. The "surfeit" adds a little archaic unusualness all of its own, but just means "too many". What are the statistics on the relative hygiene risks of different aquatic species? Maybe we need to know! Nevertheless, if a source is WP:RS then surely it can support any claim of unusualness? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

People die from food poisoning literally every day. If that's unusual, then we have a lot of work to do on this list.. --SubSeven (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But they don't get to be King of England and have their death described as "unusual" by popular paperback historians? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've made this point before. Unusual in what context? In what era where the historians writing? Was eating the eels unusual? Was dying of food poisoning unusual for monarchs? This might be a great candidate for List of Unusual Monarch Deaths, but for the purpose of this article, food poisoning is extremely common.--JeffJ (talk) 22:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you have. Being a monarch lowers the bar, surely. But I too am not sure that it lowers it enough. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I checked the "two reliable sources" (really just one) and Henry's death appears as a footnote: "They killed Henry I of England: -- "a food (says Hume gravely,) which always agreed better with his palate than his constitution.". The footnote simply clarifies Moore's use of "the regicide Lampreys". So neither Hume or Moore ever express (in this source) that the death is unusual. The editor/compiler of Moore's work simply footnotes an obscure reference and includes a quote from Hume. Actually, neither Hume or Moore express any sort of opinion on the death whatsoever, unusual or otherwise. --JeffJ (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I just read the Wikipedia entry on "1066 and All That" (linked above) and it does mention Henry I: "The death of Henry I from "a surfeit of palfreys" (recorded in other historical works as a "surfeit of lampreys") (Chapter XIII) proves to be a paradigmatic case of the deaths of later monarchs through a surfeit of over-eating or other causes." If I'm interpreting this correctly, according to "1066 and All That", Henry's death was a part of a pattern of deaths from over-eating that befell several monarchs. So if dissenters pick up a copy pf "1066 and All That" they might learn that Henry's death wasn't unusual, even for monarchs. --JeffJ (talk) 23:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If they have no sense of humor, then yes. Are these three sources insufficient because they don't actually say the word "unusual", even though all three are clearly referring to the death as an unusual event? What are the requirements for a sufficient source? Shii (tock) 23:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how to make it clearer. 1066 and All That actually implies that Henry's death was anything but unusual and your other "sources" don't comment on the death at all. Because you think that means they thought his death was unusual, it doesn't make it so.--JeffJ (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"If they have no sense of humor, then yes." I stand by my statement Shii (tock) 03:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, dissenters, eh? Whatever next. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Still waiting for the first source that even hints at unusualness. People die of food poisoning all the time, and considering advances in food preparation, it was surely even more common 1,000 years ago. --SubSeven (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

(So what about greedy Jules? Does irony get a look in?) Martinevans123 (talk) 18:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Timothy Treadwell

Copy and Paste from above:

Both were listed but removed. A film was made about Treadwell, but probably more because of the sensationalism of the audio tape. The death itself was not unusual, as innumerable people have been killed by bears in North America alone. We also have the cases of Michio Hoshino and Vitaly Nikolayenko who were separately killed while photographing bears. So three similar deaths without really looking. A more unusual set of bear attacks/deaths can be found at Sankebetsu brown bear incident. As for McCandless's death: Lots of people die in the wilderness. McCandless was unusually stupid, but his death was fairly common. He gained some celebrity when his demise was chronicled, but he was not a "prominent person" (for the purposes of this article) when he died.--JeffJ (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I should clarify this. "This list also includes less rare, though still unusual, deaths of prominent people." should be interpreted as the the subject was already prominent in life, not that he/she became prominent because of the attention their death received. --JeffJ (talk) 06:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)