Talk:List of urban areas in the United Kingdom

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Manchester - Liverpool a single metropolitain area[edit]

If Manchester and Liverpool are treated as separate conurbations I can't see why the two cities are considered as the same metropoiltan area. This is surely a mistake even if it is possible to have a place that could be regarded as both. Tetron76 (talk) 17:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

By your logic "If St Albans and London are treated as separate conurbations I can't see why the two cities are considered as the same metropoiltan area. This is surely a mistake even if it is possible to have a place that could be regarded as both." Metropolitan areas are different than urban areas and are usually much wider. Eopsid (talk) 17:55, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I have never heard anyone regard Liverpool and Manchester as the same place. There might be a RS which would allow the usage as a metropolitain area or may be I am simply ignorant on this area. But from wiki definition it describes an area that has to have a core. There is a clear geogrphic split in the regions, no common administrative region. There are also metropolitan universsities for both cities. As for St. Alban's there is certainly a case that it shouldn't be regarded as London either but relative size makes the Manchester-Liverpool much more questionable. 149.170.169.3 (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
If you look at the ONS map used as a link for metropolitain areas Manchester and Liverpool are clearly very distinct as not even a touching boundary. Source 5 does mention Liverpool-Manchester but this is likely a cyclical reference and should not really be used as at best it is secondary source which doesn't state its primary source. Sinc eit states that it uses encyclopaedia as ref it cannot be known whether this includes wikipedia itself.149.170.169.5 (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
On the ONS map of Travel to Work Areas the wolverhampton and Birmingham TTWAs have no common boundaries either but they are in the same urban area and hence same metropolitan area. That reference is really used in cases where the urban area is not mentioned in the other sources. Source 5 is used as a source on numerous other pages such as List of metropolitan areas in the Americas, List of metropolitan areas in Asia and Metropolitan areas of Mexico so I think it can be used as it's usage here is so widespread. Eopsid (talk) 19:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I have restored the article to sensibility. The point isn't worth discussing, somebody is POV pushing. Until the ONS says it is a single urban area, then it isn't. In some contexts, it is useful to take them together but this is not one of them. See also North West England#Metropolitan areas. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The division of Liverpool and Birkenhead into separate urban areas is a statistical anomaly due to the fact that the Mersey is over 200m wide. In reality they function as a single urban entity and this should probably be acknowledged in the article. Anyone who doubts this should travel to Birkenhead and examine the (small and very local) scale of its commercial/retail district. By contrast, Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Wakefield are separated by many miles of sporadic development and exist as proudly independent settlements, as any examination of their commercial/retail districts would confirm. They might satisfy the strict definition of a contiguous urban area, but they generally don't function as one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.142.105 (talk) 10:04, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Camborne/Redruth[edit]

Shouldn't that be on the list, According to the Camborne article it has a population of 59,100. 82.33.88.252 (talk) 01:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The source this article uses has a lower figure of 39,937. The Camborne article's source gives a 404 error so I am doubtful whether the 59,000 figure is real or not. Using the power of Google I found the working source and it seems the 59,100 figure is for the Camborn, Pool and Redruth Community Network Area which doesn seem the same thing as an urban area but the source does say that it is the largest urban conurbation in Cornwall. Eopsid (talk) 11:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

What should happen to this list when the 2011 census data comes out[edit]

When the 2011 census data comes out, I propose that we rename this article as 'List of urban areas in the United Kingdom (2001)' and start a new list for 2011. The new list would take over the title of 'List of urban areas in the United Kingdom' and is not renamed with the 2011 qualifier until 2022 when the 2021 list comes out. My reason for this is that it will be interesting to see where there has been growth and where there has been decline.
Does anyone have the 1991 data? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Can we just update the figures and then add a seperate column of some of the 2001 values (this could end up appearing cluttered but we could just delete some of the less useful columns) or a seperate section comparing the two.
On the subject of the 1991 data if you look at the notes section of this articles source the definition of an urban area changed slightly between 1991 and 2001 also the ONS dont have the 1991 data accessible on their website. Eopsid (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I suspect that other factors (local government, definitions) have changed in ten years. I don't doubt that we will need to replace this article - I'd just rather we didn't simply over-write it with the new data. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

2010 estimates and 2011 census data[edit]

Just in case anyone is interested. The ONS have estimates of the population in 2010 for most of the urban areas listed in this article. See this spreadsheet [1].

Also on this page [2] the ONS talks about when they will release the data for the urban ares. They say that they have yet to finalise the date but it appears it will be some time before or during February 2013.

On a speculative (OR-y) note. The new data should show that Newport and Cwmbran are now one urban area and so are Basildon and Wickford because they are when looking at Google maps. Eopsid (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I recently contacted the ONS about when the 2011 census data will be released. They replied that it will be released in Summer 2013 but that they are going to be called Built-up Areas rather than urban areas to "avoid previous inconsistency in terminology with the rural-urban definition, and provide a name that more accurately describes the geography". Eopsid (talk) 20:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

The 2011 census data on built up areas has been released and can be viewed here [3] This is only for England and Wales. So I propose we split this article into 3 sections one for Scotland, one for Northern Ireland and another for England and Wales. What forms part of some built up areas has changed massively from the 2001 data especially for Newport, Cardiff, Sunderland and Tyneside. So I'm not sure a column showing how much the population has changed would be useful. Eopsid (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I just updated the article with the 2011 census data. I split it into three sections as I mentioned before. Eopsid (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Farnborough/Aldershot Largest Settlement[edit]

This has been changed back a few times but the largest settlement in the Aldershot Urban Area is Farnborough, with a population of 57,147.

Aldershot has a population of 33,840. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.26.73 (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This article's souce gives the following populations which differ from your claims which you no doubt got off Aldershot and Farnborough's Wikipedia articles: Aldershot Urban Area 243,344 Aldershot 58,170 Camberley/Frimley 47,123 Farnborough 57,147 Farnham 36,298 Frogmore 9,665 Sandhurst 19,546 Yateley 15,395 Eopsid (talk) 09:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

This articles listings are incorrect. Rushmoor has a total population of 94,400 at the 2011 census. Farnborough's 2001 figure of 57,000 has increased, athough the figures are not yet released. This leaves 37,000 in Aldershot even if the increases only took place Aldershot, which they haven't as over 2000 homes have been built in Farnborough in the last 5 years. Further to this Farnborough has 8 local council wards to Aldeshots 5 and 3 county council wards to Aldershots 2. In the 2012 local elections 67% of votes cast were cast in Farnborough. Aldershots own wiki page list, it's population correctly in 2001 at 33,840. Farnborough is the largest settlement in the AUA by some distance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.26.73 (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

This entire article is about the Office of National Statistics (ONS) 2001 definition of urban areas and the population figures of 2001 from ONS. We can update this only when ONS issue new urban area data from the 2011 census; I don't know if they've done that yet. When they do, we can then update the entire article, but we can't guess the figures ourselves. For one thing it's likely some of the urban areas will be redefined at that point. The ONS 2001 figures are based on "urban areas" and conurbations within them, not towns, so the figure Eopsid quoted is for the Aldershot conurbation (Aldershot subdivision of Aldershot Urban Area) in 2001, not Aldershot town in 2011. -- Dr Greg  talk  18:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

ONS as a poor source for Urban Area data[edit]

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Largest urban areas of the European Union about whether Demographia.com is a better source for UK Urban Area data than the Office for National Statistics. 19:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

No, you wrong. Discussion is about use of additional (national) sources in the article. For this changes must to be consensus. Subtropical-man (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanet[edit]

I've arrived to Ramsgate by ferry from Oostende, Belgium quite a few times. I drove a small lorry to Weymouth (Bill of Portland) and exported (from a UK point of view) still alive crabs. I was sometimes difficult to adjust departure from Portland, to a perfect time arrival on the way back. Since I liked the area , I several times drove around while waiting for next the ferry. It semt to me that Ramsgate was builded together with Broadstairs, and Broadstairs with Margate. I've now learned that the Thanet area counts 135.000 inhabitants. So I'm surprised to not be able to find the Thanet area in the list. ( Totally beside the point, I think the welcoming road-sign at the ferries was nice - but in the phrase "Welcome to Ramsgate - please drive on left, I cannot help thinking that the word "please" in this context was a bit funny. ) Boeing720 (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

It's on the "List of most populous built-up areas in England and Wales" at no.56 after High Wycombe and before Accrington/Rossendale. Eopsid (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

UK Top 5[edit]

Is it possible if we could have a quick top 5 list in the UK on the top of the page? I needed to know and had to scroll down and cross check each table. Thought it would be easier for people like myself to check. If so, that would be awesome. --Erzan (talk) 13:03, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

2011 census[edit]

When information from 2011 census will be added?--Yacatisma (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Information from the 2011 census has already been added except in the Northern Irish case. I couldnt find the relevant data when google searching. The scottish figures hadnt been updated until just now so thank you for giving me the motivation to try and find the new data. Eopsid (talk) 00:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that there should also be an article showing the figures for the 2011 BUASD's (Built Up Area Sub-Divisions) not just the BUA's?Acklamite (talk) 13:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
There is one. There is this one for England: List of localities in England by population and it needs updating.
The Welsh One (List of localities in Wales by population) has already been updated.
They use the terminology Locality rather than BUASD for some reason. Eopsid (talk) 18:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
That was due to some people trying to defend (invisible) 1974 boundaries in 2014 for places that have become part of a greater urban area. It is all a bit 'mine is bigger than yours according to my rules' and rather undignified. Up to the 2001 Census, the ONS also used the term 'locality', so the practice was defensible. Now that they don't any more, it isn't. Any rolled forward article would have to be given a new name, 'list of BUASDs', which is hardly attractive, but that is what the primary source uses. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Notable changes column[edit]

The final column on the England/Wales table points to the 2001 census but not to a source that sets out key differences from 2001 to 2011. You shouldn't have to wade through all the details of the two census in order to understand the differences - that would be OR or Synthesis. Is there a source clearly setting out the changes? Eldumpo (talk) 13:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

They have maps its very clear what the differences are if you compare two maps. Comparing them in this way is pretty much the same as a comparing the populations from each census. Eopsid (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
The info in the column is taken from the 2011 census which itself includes a list of differences, not sure why the reference points to the 2001 census. WatcherZero (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
If the 2011 census clearly sets out the differences (I would suggest it should be a better reference than having to compare two different maps) can someone add a better link please. Eldumpo (talk) 07:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Table headings references to Nomis[edit]

Further to the above I have noticed that most of the table header columns point to a Nomis introduction page. Where is the actual data (including population) for all this information. I have had a quick look and couldn't find it. Please could someone post a direct link to the actual page(s)? Eldumpo (talk) 08:10, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I think this is it. I am not sure if the link'll work. [4] From the intro page you have to go to key statistics then choose a table, usual resident population is the main one used here, then wizard query and from there you can choose built-up areas and which ones you want data for. Eopsid (talk) 11:06, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Is there not a better way of obtaining the data. It's surely Synthesis to have to do the above to extract each BUA. There must be summaries somewhere that give an easier access reference for people? Where is the link for determining what areas are included in each of the BUAs in the list. I did the above process for Leicester and there were 8 entries which have presumably all been added - but where are the reliable sources making that assumption. Finally if it is decided to keep the census as the basis of this article then shouldn't the article name be changed to BUAs to reflect the source. Sorry, I know lots of questions above but this article needs to be more transparent. Eldumpo (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
The name probably should be changed to Built-up areas. They have built-up areas including subdivision which shows subdivisions of the BUAs you can use that for finding whats in each area as well as the maps. I dont see how its synthesis, its all from the same source. I think there might be summaries on the ONS site which links to this one but that shows less areas then is in the list here. Eopsid (talk) 15:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Can you dig out the ONS summaries. If they show only certain entries so be it, the picking of 100k is presumably arbitrary and not reflected by sources? This article would be perfect but is for the 2001 census. Must be a half-decent 2011 summary somewhere? Eldumpo (talk) 22:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)