Talk:Little Ice Age

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Environment / Climate change  (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This environment-related article is part of the WikiProject Environment to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized.
Read Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Climate change task force.
 

Asia?[edit]

Any records of strange weather or crop failures in India, China and the Middle East? 188.221.129.72 (talk) 19:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

There should be a whole section on it. The fall of Ming Dynasty was proposed to be at least partially caused by Little Ice Age. 152.2.14.92 (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

In the section on North America and Europe, there's a paragraph containing references to North Africa and China. Should that be moved to a separate section, perhaps "Other Northern Hemisphere" or something like that? Crymerci (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

"Global" nature of the LIA[edit]

There is a mini edit-war about "global cooling" in the first sentence. Since the extend and effect of "the" little ice age varied very much depending on location, I feel that this term is misleading. There probably was an underlying global phenomenon, but cooling was neither synchronous nor universal over the globe, as obvious from the recent literature. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. There is a more general problem with Junaji, who seems to turn up, make the same edits, get reverted, and never discuss anything. I was just going to leave a message about this on his talk page, but I see various people have done so today William M. Connolley (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Just came across a 'new' paper by Rhodes et al: "Little Ice Age climate and oceanic conditions of the Ross Sea, Antarctica from a coastal ice core record". Clim. Past, 8, 1223–1238, 2012. It looks very detailed and they conclude "The MES stable isotope record suggests that the Ross Sea region experienced 1.6 ± 1.4◦C cooler average temperatures during the LIA in comparison to the last 150 yr". Should this be added to the Antartica section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbcannell (talkcontribs) 16:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent in a big way[edit]

I'm having more than a little trouble squaring this statement:

"[Viewed] hemispherically, the "Little Ice Age" can only be considered as a modest cooling of the Northern Hemisphere during this period of less than 1°C relative to late 20th century levels'

with the entire Europe and North America section, which lists indisputable evidence that the cooling was dramatically larger than 1 degree C. Either the historical record is wrong, or the quote above is. Whichever it is, one or the other needs to be either qualified or removed. MarkinBoston (talk) 00:03, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Third Assessment Report doesn't know what it's talking about then. 1°C is quite a lot, & averages can be funny. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
The problem is with the E+NA section, which is misleading and largely anecdotal (its been stuffed full by LIA-disproves-GW type folk, which is silly). IPCC is more likely correct (though someone could look up AR4 and see if it changed there) William M. Connolley (talk) 09:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Well it did a bit, as the article says. I don't agree with your rather POV assessment. The issue here is one of scale, and cherry-picking instead of averaging. There isn't actually a contradiction. Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Four citations of "Burroughs", but where is the reference?[edit]

"Burroughs analyzes the depiction of winter in paintings.... Burroughs asserts.... Burroughs states.... Burroughs therefore cautions..." -- four citations of "Burroughs". But where is the reference??

-K. Pfeiffer 178.5.228.111 (talk) 08:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Prof. Google says: Clearly this guy, and possibly this piece, or his book of 2005. Or Climate Change: A Multidisciplinary Approach (Second Edition) By William James Burroughs, Cambridge University Press, 2007, etc. The text has been in the article for ages. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok it was all a copyvio from this, which I have rewritten & refed. Johnbod (talk) 15:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Propaganda[edit]

This article has become nothing more than a propaganda piece for global warming proponents. It is time to starts a NEW wiki system without the possibility of zealot controllists revising history every time they feel like pushing a social engineering scheme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.208.215.221 (talk) 12:31, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you prefer the Conservapedia version? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately I have to agree with user 168.208.215.221 especially with regards to the paragraph "possible causes of little ice age ->Decreased human populations". The population decreased because of the ice age and it is clearly stated in the article that although there is controversy about the exact point in time it started early indicators are from 1250 CE onward. People in Europe began to die off in 1350 due to plague which was facilitated by malnutrition. The events in the Americas are even later and there are very few reliable data on population density anyway. So the editor or "scientists" who make that claim confuse cause and effect. The correlation between solar activity and average temperature is so high that the generally agreed on scientific consensus blames the little ice age on the decline in solar activity. There may be other causes like volcanoes which contributed to the global cooling but the primary cause is the decreased solar output over a period of several hundreds of years.

How does one get banned from a science blog? I have to ask. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.208.215.221 (talk) 17:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

No idea, I don't know anyone who is. Unlike WUWT, who regularly bans people who embarass him William M. Connolley (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be holding a grudge... or do you need traffic on your blog that desperately?

Early European settlers reported in 1607-1608 on Lake Superior?[edit]

I'm taking issue with this statement: "In North America, the early European settlers reported exceptionally severe winters. For example, in 1607-1608, ice persisted on Lake Superior until June." The first European credited with the discovery of Lake Superior was Étienne Brûlé roughly around 1618 - ten years before the above statement. Quebec was only founded in 1608. I would like to see an exact quote of: Lamb, Hubert H. (1995). "The little ice age". Climate, history and the modern world. London: Routledge. pp. 211–241. ISBN 0-415-12734-3, which was used as the source. Dinkytown talk 07:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

To User:Dinkytown: Lamb did write that – "And Samuel Champlain, the founder of Quebec, found bearing ice on the edges of Lake Superior in June 1608." [1]. It’s in quite a few other books as well. [2]. But it is contradicted by the many other sources saying Brûlé was the first European there, dates vary, but sometime in the late 1610s or early 1620s. [3]. I’d support taking the Lake Superior example out. Good catch. Novickas (talk) 17:44, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I can only find one source of the book online and it has major gaps in pages (especially between pages 211-241 which would presumably include the source for the sentence). I would rather the tag stay until we can verify what the source ACTUALLY says, but I'm not hard bent either way. Ckruschke (talk) 18:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke
Sorry to hear that you can't see it thru the Google book link provided above- they do some strange access juggling sometimes. Maybe you could confirm it for yourself by using the Amazon Look Inside feature, its link for this book is [[4]]. You can't permalink to a search result, but once you're at that specific Look Inside page, you can put in the search term 1608. It returns only 1 result page, showing the sentence quoted above that begins with "And Samuel Champlain, the founder..." It's on page 220. Novickas (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh - ok - I'm sorry, I misread your post. Couldn't we rewrite the sentence to say:
In North America, Hubert H. Lamb reports in his early work "Climate, History, and the Modern World" that Samuel Champlain noted bearing ice along the edges of Lake Superior in June 1608. However, later historians question whether Champlain even reached Lake Superior by 1608 so this evidence may be anecdotal.
That sounds kind of weird, but my concern is that someone will come back and reinsert this based upon the weight Lamb's book brings to the subject. I'm not sold either way though and am ok with the deletion or whatever you guys decide. Ckruschke (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke
Hi User:Novickas, Hi User:Ckruschke - thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I believe that there are several things wrong with this statement. First, having ice along the shore of Lake Superior, is like having snow in Minnesota (where I'm from) - obvious... The lake also completely freezes over once every ten years or so, so having ice on the shore would be quite normal. In fact, there are often 'ice boulders' the size of a small house on the shore from the wind pushing it around. Second, I didn't even know that Champlain even made it out to Lake Superior, so this is something that is new to me. According to Lamb, Champlain's discovery of Lake Superior pre-dates Brûlé. I'm curious as to where Lamb got this source. I'm thinking that because the above statement is not a good example (walking from Manhattan to Staten Island is a much better one), and that there seams to be a conflict of who 'discovered' Lake Superior between Champlain and Brûlé that it might not be a good idea to remove this statement all together, until the Champlain source can be brought to light. I would love to use it, but this might be a source of conflict between the two would-be-first explorers. Take care.... Dinkytown talk 21:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh, BTW - thanks to both of you for citing the sources so easily - :) Dinkytown talk 21:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Good heavens, what a civilized discussion :) A couple of thoughts. We don't have any reliable sources saying 'Lamb was wrong about Champlain seeing ice on Lake Superior in 1608'; just us Wikipedia editors. So maybe we could leave it in and attribute the statement to Lamb, but more briefly, like 'According to Hubert Lamb, Samuel Champlain reported ice along the shores of Lake Superior in June 1608.'(reference) Leaving out the details of the book title and date, which are in the reference. We don't know how Lamb concluded this; we could speculate that Brule reported it in some journal and then maybe a digit got transposed in Lamb's book somewhere along the line (changing 1618 to 1608)? Might be worth a note in the Lake Superior article. BTW, I live near Lake Middling and have only visited Superior in late summer and midwinter, so have no idea whether ice on that lake in June is unusual or not. Novickas (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Dinkytown - I think the point here was "bearing ice in June". I am also from MN (which makes me laugh now that I didn't put 2&2 together on your name - spent many great times down in Dinkytown) and of course you get ice in the winter, but even in Duluth, MN & Thunder Bay, ONT (where I spent the coldest July in my life) you don't get ice in the summer and certainly not bearing ice.
Novickas - I like your suggested sentence and agree we don't need to talk about the book in the sentence. Either that or completely delete it like Dinkytown suggests. Deleting it would probably be easier. I also like putting something in the Lake Superior article. I'll see if I can find a good place for a copy paste of your sentence above. My 2 cents. Ckruschke (talk) 13:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke