Talk:Lordship of Ireland

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Flag[edit]

Where does the source of the flag come from? Was there one or is it used here as a convenience? --sony-youthtalk 22:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I did a few searches but it appears that Lordship did not have a specific flag and seeing it was a possession of the Kingdom of England St Georges Flag is used by default. --Barry entretien 02:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've found several sources that put the Three Crowns/flag of Munster as the flag of the Lordship of Ireland:
There's more like these but granted no authoritative source.
While, of course it was a possession of England, this would not mean that it would share the same flag as they were politically seperate. --sony-youthtalk 19:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Folks - clear up some confusion: the emblem of the Harp as shown would not be the same as the emblem employed by the English- they would have used a Harp with a Crown- the Irish would not of course use the Crown -so you havethe Harp sans Crown used by the President of the Republic. Coinage issued by the English and later by the Irish reflects this usage: the harp with crown by the English, and Irish issued coinage with the harp less the crown. The flag with the three crowns is of course the flag of the province of Munster, I do not know if the English ever used it for their Lordship of Ireland scenario, which of course which was honoured more in the breach rather the observance by the King's very nominal Irish subjects --86.43.99.51 21:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources for the Three Crowns/Munster flag are above. A more authoritative source mentioning the same (although as arms, not as a flag) is here. That source says that the crowned harp was introduced by Elizabeth I who "used a crowned harp as badge for Ireland in her second Great Seal of 1586" and that Azure a harp or was attributed to Ireland at least in 1280 (during the Lordship). Elizabeth was way after the Lordship of Ireland, and I don't think her Great Seal would affect the arms of Ireland anyway. --sony-youthtalk 20:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It would have been the personal flag of Henry, marked for a younger (cadet) son in 1185. Two leopards on a red field. The harped flag (crownless or not) was not used before the 1300s. We may like to think in 2007 that it was "honoured in the breach", but in fact we don't know. Let's not make it up.Red Hurley 17:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've come across more support for the Three Corwns representing the Lordship. (Personally, I would be suspect of a personal standard being the arms of a state. The Lordship wasn't a personal posession.) However, I'm not coming across anything that would put the harp as the arms for the Lordship. I cannot agree with Red that the harp didn't exist at this time - we have a source that puts it existing as the arms of the "Kings of Ireland" in 1280. Presumably it existed for at least some time before then, but who those "Kings of Ireland" are is the crunch question. If it the "Kings" referred to here were the rulers of the Lordship of Ireland then the harp was clearly the arms of the Lordship. However, I suspect not. Most sources put Henry VII's use of it as "new." So, these "kings" would, in my opinion, more likely be the the Gaelic kings.
I have however come across a reasonable explaination for why the Three Crowns stoped being used (and may hint at why they were use to being with). One source says "that the three crowns were replaced with the harp by Henry VIII, in case they were mistaken for the Papal tiara." So, just as he wanted to change the title from Lordship to Kingdom to fend off encroachment of the Pope, it appears he did the same with the symbols of the state.
(Incidentally, I have also come across something quite surprising which I am going to post to Talk:Kingdom of Ireland. ATQ Stewart says the following on Henry VIII in The Shape of Irish History: "Ireland was given a new green flag and the harp as its national symbol." Unfortuneately, he was not more about this "green flag." However, this got me thinking, was this the Green Flag of the kind associated with 1798? Certainly, the Saltaire (the flag currently appearing on the Kingdom of Ireland article) was in no way a flag of that Kingdom (it was coined only 20 years before the end of that state - and even then as a flag for the Order of St. Patrick NOT the kingdom. The Green Flag was used certainly as a naval jack during the KoI and was was hugely popular. It is attributed as the flag of Ireland by rolls in 1600's. In fact there are may references to it being the "flag of Ireland" during the period of the Kingdom, some putting English flag upper right corner. Before this period, blue appears to have been the "colour of Ireland" whereas afterwards green becomes so. For Henty VIII to change from the "flag of Munster" to the "flag of Leinster" also has some sense to it.) --sony-youthtalk 09:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Finally an authorative source: "Our readers will observe that the arms which for many hundred years after the Conquest were borne by the whole of Ireland are now borne by the Province of Munster alone. In the time of Edward the IV. a Commission was held to enquire into the arms of Ireland, which Commission returned that 'yt ye three Crownes were ye armes,'" The Arms of Ireland, Rev. JFM French
See pages 19-21 for a full explaination.
However, it appears that the Harp had a strong association with Ireland such that "when Henry the VIII placed a harp instead of three crowns on the Irish shield he may have only called into requisition a well known Irish badge or crest, which would on that account be the more readily accepted ... [such that] the adoption of the harp as the badge of Ireland was a decided success, and has proved equally acceptable to all parties in the State." --sony-youthtalk 13:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
A clearer description of the use of the harp:
Not so long ago it was generally believed that the inclusion of the harp in the arms and coinage of Ireland dated only from the reign of Henry VIII., but the fact is that the national instrument appears on coins issued by King John and Edward I.; and, in 1251, we read that "the new coinage was stamped in Dublin with the impression of the King's head in a triangular harp." A harp was originally the peculiar device of the arms of the Leinster province, and it was subsequently applied to the whole kingdom of Ireland-namely, in heraldic language, 'on a field vert, a harp or, stringed argent.'" - from Medieval Harps and Harpers --sony-youthtalk 13:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The three crowns appeared ontop of each other, like in this coin; not like today's flag of Munster. It was changed to the harp under Henry VIII, supposedly because the three crowns look like a papal tiara.[1] A rose ontop of a sun seems to feature on some coins too. - Yorkshirian (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Nice work on the coat of arms, it looks great. But—just a suggestion—maybe it should use the same shades of blue and gold as the KOI arms? ~Asarlaí 07:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

further cleanup[edit]

Added surrender & regrant. Removed Henry viii's excommunication (he wasn't / relationship veered from obedience to strong dislike). Henry burnt protestants at the stake; hated Luther and the Papacy.Red Hurley 15:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge?[edit]

I propose we merge Norman Ireland + Anglo and Gaelic Ireland 1367–1536 into this article. All three articles cover the exact same period and thus there's a lot of duplicated information. Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 02:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. On the logic that 1+1+1 > 3. Mergeing the three would make for a better overall article IMHO. Norman Ireland could in time be spun out again into its own article. I don't get what the "Anglo-Gaelic Ireland" article is about. There is another article, Gaelic Ireland, that I think deserves to be left separate. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 18:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Merge, the first one certainly. It might be useful to have an overview article for this Gaelic kingdoms which never became part of the Lordship. - Yorkshirian (talk) 02:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The dates given on the Gaelic Ireland article extend as far as the Battle of Kinsale (past the LOI even into the KOI). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 18:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
So we're agreed then? Merging Norman Ireland + Lordship of Ireland shouldn't be hard, but I'm not sure what to do with the other one. ~Asarlaí 07:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Merge it with Gaelic Ireland is my 2¢? It hasn't been substantially changed since its first edits in 2005. I think it's purpose has since been overtaken by the Gaelic Ireland article, particularly the secton post-the Norman invasion. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 01:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Done. Gaelic Ireland + Anglo and Gaelic Ireland 1367–1536 have been merged. ~Asarlaí 12:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Lordship of Ireland, the official English title which the English called their claimed lands in Ireland by, sounds like late medieval Ireland - all of it - has just been thrown into a nice and neat English framework. That is ahistorical by any standards, even in the Pale, to say nothing of Tir Chónaill, Conamara or the vast majority of Ireland which was not under English rule. For an inclusive title, Late Medieval Ireland would be better. 86.44.17.226 (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see Talk:History of Ireland where I have put forward an alternative proposal that "Norman Ireland" be moved to "History of Ireland 1169-1536". Scolaire (talk) 10:19, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

RFC: Irish history series[edit]

I have opened a discussion on a reorganisation of the series of articles dealing with Irish history at Talk:History of Ireland#RFC: Irish history series. --RA (talk) 23:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Is Lord of Ireland a peerage title or feudal title ?

Siyac 11:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siyac (talkcontribs)

Royal style Tinynanorobots (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Sentence in lead[edit]

I am removing the following sentence from the lead, as every part of it is inaccurate or plain wrong:

It was never governed by the parliament, it was governed by the Lord Lieutenant and his deputy. The Pale only existed for part of its life, the House of Plantagenet for only a short part and the Angevin Empire for only a very short part. I can't say whether it was explicitly a fief of the Angevin Empire, but I don't think it was. Scolaire (talk) 14:06, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

First sentence[edit]

The first sentence underwent a couple of changes recently. It currently says "The Lordship of Ireland...refers to Ireland under the rule of the king of England". I don't think that is correct. In any book I've looked at, Ireland is referred to simply as Ireland. "The Lordship of Ireland", strictly speaking, was only a title granted by Henry II to his son John, and retained by his successors. This is the sense in which it is used in most history books. In the wider sense, it refers to the English claim to lordship over Ireland, or to English institutions in Ireland. These varied widely over the course of 400 years between extensive and purely theoretical outside the Pale. The Kingdom of Ireland was different because it was entirely under English rule, and subject to the king, for the whole of its history. But the important point is that even contemporary English documents, or 19th century imperialist histories, don't use "The Lordship of Ireland" to refer to Ireland. A better phrasing is needed for the opening sentence. Scolaire (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Old Norse and other non-irish languages[edit]

In many websites and Wikipedia articles, they have said that the Norse in Ireland had become assimilated with the Irish, both linguistically and culturally. They certainly contributed to Irish culture and civilizationn, fouding the first urban institutions in Ireland but was Old Norse still spoken after 1171? Abrawak (talk) 14:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

How widely was French, English and any other settler languages spoken? Abrawak (talk) 14:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Norse may still have been spoken in urban centres, such as Dublin and Waterford - but it died away in the century or so there after. English was the official language of the Lordship. Irish was spoken by the vast majority. French (or Old Norman) was the native language of the Norman invaders. The tendency of the settlers to become more Irish than the Irish themselves (and speak Irish) necessitated the passing of the Statutes of Kilkenny, which required the subjects of the king to speak English (not Irish). --Tóraí (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)