Talk:Lucifera

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as not being recently created, having relevant page history and not duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because in fact a longer article existed for many years but wasn't the primary topic; now it mentions the primary topic--Latin/Italian name--and the previous version of the article, one usage in popular culture: Lucifera (comics)--dchmelik (t|c) 10:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

--dchmelik (t|c) 10:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No need for this as Lucifera (name) is virtually identical, and as there are only two entries, any dab or x-ref necessary (IF necessary) can be achieved by hatnote. Ingratis (talk) 10:04, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what x-refs & hatnotes are yet (proper technical writing is to define abbreviations before usage.) What you said is true so there should be a main article, probably not extra one with '(name)'--dchmelik (t|c) 10:07, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

X-ref is the usual English abbrevn for cross-reference. Hatnotes = WP:Hatnotes. Dab = WP:Disambiguation. There is no need for two articles on one very short topic. Please WP:Redirect one to the other, or I can do it. I have removed the speedy tag. Ingratis (talk) 10:18, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that the goddess/epithet (mainly being an aspect/version of Diana) is even a large enough subject, so should the epithet be redirected to her main article from Lucifera (comics)? They certainly are referenced in their respective articles.--dchmelik (t|c) 10:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(I've left a short note on your talk page as well). While there are only the two instances of the name you could certainly reference them directly to each other from their respective articles, as outlined in WP:Hatnote. If you could add a couple more instances then there wd be no reason not to keep the disambiguation page - I notice for example that "lucifera" occurs in several scientific names (mostly beetles), which would be a valid addition. Ingratis (talk) 10:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some names were original characters then (common) epithets, like Goddess Kore as earlier/alternative Persephone then Kore as term for goddesses such as Athena, Hestia, and the case Pallas the earlier god/giant became epithet Pallas (Athena ;) unclear to me isn't the case with Lucifera, though isn't a major subject to me (except in relation to Lucifer) so unsure I can find much else that shouldn't just be in Diana's article. If there's not enough material, because of the beetles, I think it should be either be disambiguation (though I've basically forgotten how to do those) or give it back to people who edit the larger article of the comic book character.

I'm not sure what you mean by cross-reference as this link says it's a failed proposal but Diana (mythology) and Lucifera (comic) have at least one citation/quote/reference in their articles so are apparently well-documented historical cases.--dchmelik (t|c) 11:14, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dchmelik: I meant "cross-reference" in the general English language sense, not the Wikipedia sense! sorry. FWIW I think a disambiguation page is the best way forward. Besides the beetles, there is also a character called Lucifera in Spenser's Faerie Queene, a daughter of Pluto (an invention of Spenser, but a good substantial reference), which would make three main entries + beetles, which is quite enough I think to justify its existence. I have to be elsewhere now for some hours but if it would help I'd be happy to draft a disambiguation page for your consideration, rather than make you go through the whole thing yourself. Ingratis (talk) 11:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As long as (hopefully firstly noting name origin) can link Goddess Diana (Lucifera is in a top section currently) however it's done is fine (no separate name/mythology articles seem needed... just didn't like a popular culture character being before ancient/Classical) Interesting you found another semi-legend/-mythology version.--dchmelik (t|c) 12:17, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dchmelik and Ingratis: This is horrible at the moment. I came to it because it is tagged {{stub}} so turned up in Category:Stubs for stub-sorting, but it half-claims to be a disambiguation page, though not formatted as such, and has no sources to support its existence as a stub. For now I think I'll remove the stub tag altogether, and perhaps try to format it as more of a dab page, but ... aargh. I note that Italian wikipedia only has an article Lucifera, no mention of this " Latin/Italian goddess/epithet ". I also note that there are at present 9 incoming links which seem to relate to comics, plus one bacterium, so those 9 links will need to be fixed after the page they were targetting was moved to Lucifera (comics), and it's the responsibility of the page mover to do that tidying up when moving a page to create a dab page at the basic title. PamD 18:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a dab page for now, commenting out the existing content. It looks as if "lucifera" would also be a useful addition to List_of_Latin_and_Greek_words_commonly_used_in_systematic_names#L, as it seems to be the second component in quite a few systematic names. PamD 19:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PamD: You seem to have dealt with it, so nothing left for me to do! Ingratis (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence that the comics character is not the WP:Primary Topic for the name? I suggest it would be better to move her back to the basic title, and move the disambiguation page to [[[Lucifera (disambiguation)]]. One editor disliking the fact that a pop culture topic has an article at a particular name (" just didn't like a popular culture character being before ancient/Classical") is not grounds for moving the page: we need solid sourced content, and an indication that the comic book character is not "much more likely than all other topics put together" to be what readers want when they look at that term. I see no evidence for that, so the move of the comic book title was probably out of line. PamD 19:18, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ingratis: Well there is the question of the 9 incoming links which someone needs to repair! PamD 19:19, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PamD: - yes, I've dealt with them. For the rest, my only involvement here was that it originally presented as two duplicate pages, of which Lucifera (name) remains for now as a redirect to this one. Google suggests that Diana Lucifera IS a thing, however. Ingratis (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ingratis: Thanks. I'm now intrigued by some of the taxa with "Lucifera", so this one m ay run and run. Another Wiki rabbit-hole down which to lose some time! PamD 20:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PamD: - a good name for fireflies! Best, Ingratis (talk) 20:52, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PamD:There's thousands years evidence the primary topic is the ancient Latin/Roman/Italian name as in Diana Lucifera.--dchmelik (t|c)

@Dchmelik: I see your point. The hiccup is that Lucifera (comics) has more links to it than the Diana Lucifera use. I've rearranged the entries on the disambiguation page in chronological order, which puts Diana at the head of the list, and I hope this may form a workable compromise. Best wishes, Ingratis (talk) 10:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You did great work on this... I wasn't being picky, just I think Wikipedia has a general (so arguably also firstly historical) before pop culture focus, despite how interesting such comic book character name may also sound...--dchmelik (t|c) 10:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]