Talk:Lumbee

Can we talk about how wealthy lumbee people are. Especially juxtaposing against most welfarized native Americans

--Ninja247 (talk) 06:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.68.28 (talk) 05:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

More background information needs to be provided on the Cheraw and Tuscarora Sections

There is an abbundance of information available on both of these nations respective histories. Perhaps it would be helpful to clarify a little more about what the historic record indicates happened to each of them. In other words: are there enough unnaccounted for individuals from either one to have been able to have made a significant contribution?

Bobby Hurt (talk) 21:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Undue weight being given to Lost Colony theory (OR)

There is undue weight being given to early legends of Lumbee origin, and discussing them as if this article were the place to distinguish among them - this is Original Research. Editors are supposed to rely on valid, third-party sources for assessments. Much contemporary documentation by recognized researchers has disposed of the Lost Colony legend.--Parkwells (talk) 16:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

One published source that may deserve some mention on this topic is Robert C. Lawrence's 1939 book; "The State of Robeson"

On page 112 Lawrence states in part:

"....the colonists were not only to go to Croatan, but FIFTY MILES UNTO THE MAINLAND. This would locate them between Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, and there in 1660 Rev. Morgan Jones found among the Tuscarora a tribe known as "Doegs," light of complexion and who could understand the Welsh speech--proving beyond a peradventure some earlier association with the whites...............French emigrants as early as 1690 settled between the Pamlico and Neuse rivers, and here the first settlers found a native race to whom they gave the name "Malange," meaning "Mixed." At the earliest coming of the white settlers into what is now Robeson county, there was found along the waters of the lumber a tribe of Indians SPEAKING ENGLISH,owning slaves,and practicing many of the arts of civilization, who call themselves "Malungeans." I doubt not these were descendants of the mixed race above reffered to, who had moved from Neuse and Pamlico to other hunting grounds in the valley of the Lumber....."

An equally important piece of published material that I don't see present in the main Lumbee page is an article printed on February 12, 1885 in the Fayetteville Observer Newspaper. The article read in part:

“ …They say that their traditions say that the people we call the Croatan Indians (though they do not recognize that name as that of a tribe, but only a village, and that they were Tuscaroras), were always friendly to the whites; and finding them destitute and despairing of ever receiving aid from England, persuaded them to leave the Island, and go to the mainland.…They gradually drifted away from their original seats, and at length settled in Robeson, about the center of the county.”

I agree that the published material available doesn't even come close to substantiating this "Lost Colony" theory as it is portrayed in the main article but I do feel that enough evidence exists as not to rule it out entirely; thus making it worthy of mention. Bobby Hurt (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Lack of citations and improper source citation

Much new material has been introduced without the editors' using inline citations, which are preferred by Wikipedia. In addition, there is material without any sources, which can be removed if valid third-party reliable sources are not provided. Some editors seem to be relying heavily on dated (1930s and earlier research) that has been superseded by more recent scholarly work. This gives undue weight to earlier accounts of Lumbee origins which did not make adequate use of historical documentation.--Parkwells (talk) 18:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. This article was in a fairly good state some time back; perhaps we should just revert to that.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure where to pick up the best version.--Parkwells (talk) 22:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Legends - References

Neither Hawks nor Lawson are llisted among the references or further readings, although they are cited in this section (incompletely).--Parkwells (talk) 22:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The text says early white settlers of Robeson Co. recorded mixed-race Indians, but there is no cite.--Parkwells (talk) 22:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Although Oxendine, Milling and Rights are referenced as authors in this section, their books or articles are not identified in either of the reference lists, nor are inline citations given. It's difficult to know what authors and books are being referenced.--Parkwells (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I found the reference information for Hawks, Lawson, Oxendine, Milling and Rights. I couldn't find reference information for DeMarce or Heinegg. Holloman and Pierce have been cited but these could refer to several different publications.-Uyvsdi (talk) 19:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Legends - number of tribes in NC

The section notes there are/were five recognized tribes in North Carolina, and one of them is Smilings. These are indicators this is based on dated text, as the state recognizes more tribes in 2009, and none goes by the name of Smilings.--Parkwells (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Further reading

In the quest to match citations with references and limit superfluous media listings, I'm moving the list of "Further Reading" here. If any of these are particularly significant or cited in the article, please feel free to restore those publications to the article. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Uncited texts

• The Amerindian (American Indian Review). "Lumbee Indians put Klansmen to rout in ‘uprising’." 6.3 (January-February 1958): [1]-2.
• Anderson, Benedict . Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. London: Verso; Revised edition, 1991.
• Anderson, Ryan K. "Lumbee Kinship, Community, and the Success of the Red Banks Mutual Association," American Indian Quarterly 23 (Spring 1999): pp. 39–58.
• Barth, Fredrik, ed. Ethnic Groups and Boundaries: The Social Organization of Culture Difference. London: George Allen & Unwin, 1969.
• Barton, Lewis Randolf. The Most Ironic Story in American History. Charlotte: Associated Printing Corporation, 1967.
• Beaulieu, David L. "Curly Hair and Big Feet: Physical Anthropology and the Implementation of Land Allotment on the White Earth Chippewa Reservation." American Indian Quarterly 7: pp. 281–313.
• Berry, Brewton. Almost White: A Study of Certain Racial Hybrids in the Eastern United States. New York: MacMillan Company, 1963.
• Blu, Karen I. “Lumbee.” Handbook of North American Indians. Vol. 14, Southeast. Ed. Raymond D. Fogelson. Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution, 2004. pp. 319–327.
• Blu, Karen I. "'Reading Back' to Find Community: Lumbee Ethnohistory." In North American Indian Anthropology: Essays on Society and Culture, ed. by Raymond DeMallie and Alfonso Ortiz. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1993. pp. 278–295.
• Blu, Karen I. '"Where Do You Stay At?" Home Place and Community Among the Lumbee." In Senses of Place, ed. by Steven Feld and Keith Basso. Santa Fe: School of American Research Press, 1996. pp.197-227.
• Boyce, Douglas W. "Iroquoian Tribes of the Virginia-North Carolina Coastal Plain," in Handbook of North American Indians, ed. William C. Sturtevant, vol. 15. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution, 1978. pp. 282–289.
• Brownwell, Margo S. "Note: Who Is An Indian? Searching For An Answer To the Question at the Core of Federal Indian Law." University of Michigan Journal of Law Reform 34 (Fall-Winter 2001-2002): pp. 275–320.
• Davis, Dave D. "A Case of Identity: Ethnogenesis of the New Houma Indians," Ethnohistory 48 (Summer 2001): pp. 473–494.
• Dial, Adolph L. ‘’The Lumbee (Indians of North America book series).’’ New York: Chelsea House Publications, 1993.
• Craven, Charles. "The Robeson County Indian Uprising Against the KKK," The South Atlantic Quarterly LVII (1958): pp. 433–442.
• Feest, Christian F. "North Carolina Algonquians," in Handbook of North American Indians, ed. William C. Sturtevant, vol. 15. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution, 1978: pp. 277–278.
• Forbes, Jack D. Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1993.
• Galloway, Patricia K. Choctaw Genesis, 1500-1700. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1995.
• Garoutte, Eva M. Real Indian: Identity and the Survival of Native America. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2003.
• Greensboro Daily News, "The Lumbees Ride Again." January 20, 1958: 4A.
• Hariot, Thomas, John White and John Lawson (1999). A Vocabulary of Roanoke. Evolution Publishing: Merchantville, NJ. ISBN 1-889758-81-7. 
• Hobsbawm, Eric. Bandits. New York: Delacorte Press, 1969.
• Hudson, Charles M. The Southeastern Indians. Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1976.
• Magdol, Edward S. "Against the Gentry: An Inquiry into a Southern Lower-Class Community and Culture, 1865-1870," Journal of Social History 6 (Spring 1973), pp. 259–283
• Maynor, Malinda, “Native American Identity in the Segregated South: The Indians of Robeson County, North Carolina, 1872-1956,” ‘’PhD Dissertation’’. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina, 2005.
• McCulloch, Anne M. and David E. Wilkins. '"Constructing' Nations Within States: The Quest for Federal Recognition by the Catawba and Lumbee Tribes." American Indian Quarterly 19 (Summer 1995): pp. 361–389.
• McKinnon, Henry A. Jr. Historical Sketches of Robeson County. N.P.: Historic Robeson, Inc., 2001.
• Merrell, James H. The Indians' New World: Catawbas and Their Neighbors from European Contact through the Era of Removal. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1993.
• Merrell, James H. to Charlie Rose, October 18, 1989, in “U.S. Congress, House Committee on Natural Resources,” ‘’Report Together with Dissenting Views to Accompany H.R. 334, 103rd Congress, 1st Session, October 14, 1993, House Report 290.
• Miller, Bruce G. Invisible Indigenes: The Politics of Nonrecognition. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2003.
• Morrison, Julian. "Sheriff Seeks Klan Leader's Indictment: Cole Accused of Inciting Riot Involving Indians and Ku Klux." Greensboro Daily News, January 20, 1958: A1-3.
• Nagel, Joane. "American Indian Ethnic Renewal: Politics and the Resurgence of Identity." American Sociological Review 60 (December 1995): pp. 947–965.
• New York Times, “Raid by 500 Indians balks North Carolina Klan rally.” January 19, 1958, p. 1.
• Newsweek, "North Carolina: Indian raid." 51 (January 27, 1958: p. 27.
• Pascoe, Peggy. "Miscegenation Law, Court Cases, and Ideologies of 'Race' in Twentieth-Century America." Journal of American History 83 (June 1996): pp. 44–69.
• Perdue, Theda. "Mixed Blood" Indians: Racial Construction in the Early South. Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 2003.
• Pierce, Julian, J. Hunt-Locklear, Jack Campisi, and Wesley White, ‘’The Lumbee Petition’’, Pembroke, NC: Lumbee River Legal Services, 1987.
• Price, Edward T. "A Geographic Analysis of White-Negro-Indian Racial Mixtures in Eastern United States." The Association of American Geographers. Annals 43 (June 1953): pp. 138–155.
• Price, Edward T. "Mixed-blood Populations of Eastern United States as to Origins, Localization and Persistence. (Ph.D. dissertation) University of California, Berkeley, 1950.
• Redding, Kent. Making Race, Making Power: North Carolina's Road to Disenfranchisement. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 2003.
• Robesonian, "‘The Law’ Treads Lightly to Avert Maxton Violence." January 20, 1958: 1.
• Ryan, Ethel. Greensboro Record, "Indians who crushed rally were mature tribesmen." January 21, 1958: A1.
• Saunt, Claudio. A New Order of Things : Property, Power, and the Transformation of the Creek Indians, 1733-1816. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1999.
• Saunt, Claudio. Black, White, and Indian : Race and the Unmaking of an American Family. New York: Oxford University Press, 2005.
• Seib, Rebecca S. Settlement Pattern Study of the Indians of Robeson County, NC, 1735-1787. Pembroke, NC: Lumbee Regional Development Association, 1983.
• Seib, Rebecca S. Lumbee Indian Histories: Race, Ethnicity, and Indian Identity in the Southern United States. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993.
• Seib, Rebecca S. "Lumbee Indian Cultural Nationalism and Ethnogenesis," Dialectical Anthropology 1 (January 1975): pp. 161–172.
• Seib, Rebecca S. “The walls came tumbling up: The production of culture, class and Native American societies.” Australian journal of anthropology 17.3 (December 2006): pp. 276–290.
• Seltzer, Carl C. "A Report on the Racial Status of Certain People in Robeson County, North Carolina." June 30, 1936. [NARA. RG 75, Entry 616, Box 13-15, North Carolina].
• Smith, Martin T. Archeology of Aboriginal Culture Change in the Interior Southeast: Depopulation During the Early Historic Period. Gainesville, FL: University of Florida Press, 1987.
• Stilling, Glenn Ellen Starr. "Lumbee Indians." Encyclopedia of North Carolina. Ed. William S. Powell. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2006. pp. 699–703. available online
• Swanton, John R. "Probable Identity of the 'Croatan' Indians." National Anthropological Archives, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. MS 4126
• Torbert, Benjamin. "Tracing Native American Language History through Consonant Cluster Reduction: The Case of Lumbee English" American Speech 76 (Winter 2001): pp. 361–387.
• U.S. Bureau of the Census, ‘’2000 Census of Population, Social and Economic Characteristics: North Carolina’’ Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 2002
• U.S. Congress, Senate. Recognition as Siouan Indians of Lumber River of certain Indians in North Carolina. 73rd Congress, 2d session, January 23, 1934. Senate Report 204.
• U.S. Congress, Senate. Relating to Lumbee Indians of North Carolina. 84th Congress, 2nd session, May 16, 1956. Senate Report 2012.
• Usner, Daniel H. Jr. American Indians in the Lower Mississippi Valley: Social and Economic Histories. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1998.
• Usner, Daniel H. Jr. Indians, Settlers, and Slaves in a Frontier Exchange Economy : The Lower Mississippi Valley Before 1783. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1992.
• Wilkins, David E. "Breaking Into the Intergovernmental Matrix: The Lumbee Tribe's Efforts to Secure Federal Acknowledgment." Publius 23 (Fall 1993): pp. 123–142. available online

Name change

I'm going to restore this article to the name Lumbee because there absolutely no discussion of a name change. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Legend creep and other issues

The legends section keeps growing, but without sources. Unsourced assertions have been deleted from other sections. The article is getting very circular as people keep restating the same info in different areas.Parkwells (talk) 23:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Disambugiation change

I changed the link Lumbe because it directs to the village in eastern Nepal and discussed another village in Angola in Africa. I have serious doubts on the two villages are related to the history and presence of Lumbees, whom are a mixed-race population of American Indians, African-Americans and white Europeans. It may have to do with numerous theories on the origins of Lumbees, Tuscaroras, Powhatans and even the Cherokees came from early settlement of the region from indentured servants and stranded seafarers of inter-racial origins (i.e. Latin Americans, Moors or North Africans, Turks or Turkic peoples, South Asians, East Asians and Malays) in the 17th and 18th century American colonies. There are speculation mythology of Lumbees are descendants of the lost colonies (Raleigh Colony) and the terms "Croatan" for the Croatan Indians in the area might descended from Croats sailors originally in the Balkans from what was then Ottoman Turkey (now the nation of Croatia along with former Yugoslavia) employed by Spanish, Italian, French and British seafaring companies employed in fishing boats way back in the 16th century on the Atlantic coasts of North America, included Basques and the Portuguese or Galizans, might already settled down with Amerindians in the Outer Banks and Sea Islands. 71.102.26.168 (talk) 23:23, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Legends not substantiated

There is academic work that substantiates that most Lumbee ancestors were African Americans free iin colonial Virginia. A few may have had other than northern European ancestry for the European portion, but most were northern European and African, as documented by Paul Heinegg and cited in the article. People want to believe the exotic myths rather than the interesting reality of colonial Virginia. Please don't keep adding such unsourced mythology as above. No one is saying the Tuscarora, Powhatan or Cherokee came from European or Turkic immigrants - their origin as Native American indigenous peoples is documented via archeology, linguistics and genetics.Parkwells (talk) 19:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

There is academic work that substantiates that most Lumbee ancestors were referenced as Mullato not as Free African Americans (I've read Heineggs work and it is fact that this and the term "free person of color" are in use 90% of the time). There is also a law dating back to 1705 (see Dr. Jack D. Forbes' published work) passed in Virginia defining a Mullato as "an Indian, the child of an Indian, the grandchild of an Indian, the child therof OR of a Negro." So Heinegg didn't substantiate a thing in regards to exact racial makeup of the families in question. The individuals he traced to Virginia (about 1/3 he substantiated) "could" have been a number of things in a racial sense. There is no objection to the presentation of his arguments. It is your own personal interpretations of them that are inappropriate (POV). He proposes a theory; just as others (which you have removed) have proposed theories. As I stated below; neutrality is lacking in your recent edits to this page.Bobby Hurt (talk) 03:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Sourced content deleted

There is no justification for deleting content related to Paul Heinegg's major work on free people of color in the Upper South. He did extensive, award-winning research in a great variety of colonial and early federal records to trace numerous families found in the frontier areas.Parkwells (talk) 19:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Add cited content if you wish. But there is no justification for removing other cited content in the process. Paul Heinegg should be mentioned; but so should things like the published statements of Hamilton McMillan (which you removed). Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. The fact that they were written and cited is all that matters here. Neutrality is lacking in your latest edits.Bobby Hurt (talk) 02:47, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Recent unsourced edits

Could someone much more familiar with Lumbee history fact check the recent unsourced edits by User:Poprobeson, User:SittingDeer, User:Cherokeeblood, and User:MntBuffalo, who appear to all be the same user. Obviously this person has a POV against Lumbees. I removed a completely POV opinion from the article and issued a warning against adding unsourced information. Not sure if all the edits should be reverted or if there is some merit to some of them. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi