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This whole article reeks of POV and keeps bragging continuously about the supposed inferiority to Riesling. de:Müller-Thurgau is far better written and its contents should best be translated and incorporated into this article. --doco () 00:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I support the above. Smells strongly of wine-snobbery and jingoism.

I totally agree, whoever wrote the english version has probably never tried a good Muller-Thurgau. In comparison to the german page, this entry is extremely negative. However, a noteworthy explanation as to why this might be can be found on the german page de:Müller-Thurgau: Muller-Thurgau has been often "abused" for the production of lower quality table wine. However, the author of the english MT page entirely fails to point out the qualities of MT in particular with regard to its taste. On optimal soil, MT should have a touch of Muscat, low acidity, and should be "fruity". With this in mind, (and in retrospect), the genetic/genomic analysis pointing to Chasselas/Gutedel makes sense. Personally, I found MT from southwest Germany (Baden) very nice. I wonder, if this is due to the higher content of loess (unstratified usually buff to yellowish brown loamy deposit) in the soil, which is typical for the parts of the Rhine valley between Basel and Kaiserstuhl.


I'd like to point out that if you found a touch of Muscat in a wine marked Müller-Thurgau or Rivaner, it was probably because it had some Muscat thrown in! Wines labelled with a single variety in the EU need only contain 85% of the variety on the label. Topping up Müller-Thurgau with for example Morio Muscat is one of the most well-known ways to use this "loophole".Tomas e 13:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Is "disputed" the right word for the POV of this article? There doesn't seem to be much actual debate and discussion going on. I'm going to go ahead and start adding facts and statistics from the de: page, unless somebody stops me... Paul.w.bennett 19:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Müller Thurgau is an inferior grape compared to Riesling[edit]

Müller-Thurgau is an inferior grape compared to Riesling, but even so I agree that the article needs a cleanup. Müller-Thurgau is a grape variety worth a better fate. I myself actually did rewrite the Genealogy part earlier today. I am a chemist and I did the part I'm initiated in. // Lars J, Sweden.

Good data, and a good edit. I just fiddled with the English to make it flow more natively; I hope you don't mind. The de: article claims Madeleine Royal is descended from Chasselas (and then Gutedel). Do you have any thoughts on that? I've removed the Gutedel remark from this article, since it was also not yet translated, and refered to Chasselas originally Paul.w.bennett 16:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to try to tidy up the English again, from a native perspective. Your edits were almost 100% perfect, but the "Depite that" edit does not read easily. I'm not yet sure how to improve while sticking to the spirit and tone of your edit -- yours is definitely the more neutral phrasing, but the grammar is non-standard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul.w.bennett (talkcontribs) 15:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
Since there seems to be some doubt in some places as to Müller-Thurgau's inferiority, let me quote the opening sentence from its entry in the Oxford Companion to Wine (2006 edition), which is the world's most authorative wine encyclopedia on paper: "white variety which could fairly be said to have been the bane of German wine production but which is at long last on the wane there." Tomas e (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
It is bane and blessing at the same time, since quality oriented wine growers have learnt to cultivate this grape with high success. MTh has been the second most grafted variety (behind Riesling) during the last two years in Germany and its renaissance is evident. --Symposiarch (talk) 09:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any figures to that effect (the numbers)? I'm not disputing your claim, I'm just curious where such figures can be found, because I might want to include them in the German wine article. As you can see from the figure I've included in the article, so far, total planting statistics so far does not seem to indicate that Müller-Thurgau vineyards are renewed at all to any greater extent. I have never seen a single M-T wine offered at any Germany top-level producer (though I haven't visited Baden or Franconia, where it's more common), so I wonder how far down e.g. the Gault-Millau producer ratings (starting at five grape clusters) you have to go before you find a producer with a single M-T vine... Talking about the quality of M-T in general, the article could probably stress more that it is used in "new" more northern locations. Tomas e (talk) 12:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As an update, I checked Gault-Millau Weinguide (2007 Edition online, typically rates the excellent 2005 vintage for whites and 2004 vintage for reds) and its 6,000+ rated German wines for highly rated Müller-Thurgau and I found the highest at 87 point and exactly four at 85+ points, all from Franconia:

  • Horst Sauer(****) was responsible for two dry M-T at 87 and 85 points. Their best Riesling and Silvaner both had 93 points.
  • Rainer Sauer(**) was responsible for a dry M-T at 87 points (same variety, same vineyard, same classification, same surname, same wine score!). Their best Silvaner had 89 and their best Riesling 88 points
  • Winzergenossenschaft Nordheim (**) was responsible for a sweet M-T Auslese at 86 points. Their best wine was a Weißer Burgunder at 88 points.
  • Johann Ruck(***) has a dry M-T at 85 points, and their best Rieslaner, Riesling, Silvaner, Traminer and Grauer Burgunder all scored better at 86-90 points.

Let's compare with GM scores of wines of some other white varieties:

  • Riesling (152% of M-T's surface): 66 wines at 95+, 150+ at 93+ (150 search results are maximum)
  • Silvaner (38% of M-T's surface): 6 wines at 90+, 125+ at 85+
  • Grauer Burgunder (31% of M-T's surface): 4 wines at 90+, 125+ at 85+
  • Kerner (28% of M-T's surface): 1 wines at 90+, 14 at 85+
  • Weißer Burgunder (25% of M-T's surface): 17 wines at 90+, 150+ at 85+
  • Bacchus (15% of M-T's surface): 4 wines at 85+ (max 89)
  • Scheurebe (14% of M-T's surface): 14 wines at 90+, 47 at 85+
  • Gutedel (8% of M-T's surface): 1 wine at 90, 3 wines at 85+
  • Chardonnay(!) (8% of M-T's surface): 10 wine at 90+, some 100 wines at 85+
  • Traminer (6% of M-T's surface): 14 wines at 90+, some 100 wines at 85+

To be quite honest, unless Gault-Millau are extremely biased against M-T in comparison to these grape varieties, I see very little evidence that M-T is used in notable or successful German wines. And I'm not just talking about a comparison with Riesling, but also with all the other varieties at >1% of the vineyard surface! Müller-Thurgau wines might be quaffable, but seem invariably to be far from transcendent. Tomas e (talk) 01:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

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Temperature in 1979?[edit]

The last paragraph in the History of the Grape Variety states that the temperature in the Germany's 1979 winter was "-20°F (-4°C)." From what little I know of German wine, it seems that -4°C would only be disappointing for icewine producers, so I'm guessing that -20°F is the correct figure of the two, but in my brief search I haven't found a source on the issue. -Kyle (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

-20°F would be -6.7°C rather than -4°C, which is also not that uniquely cold for areas which commonly get snow in the winter. But I vaguely recall that I've heard that vines can suffer from quick drops in temperature rather than from the cold itself, so perhaps these temperatures are correct. Tomas e (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Trouble is that little "-". +20°F does come out to -6.7°C, but -20°F comes out to -28°C. -Kyle (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh, there was a minus sign there! I didn't notice that before, or at least I didn't factor that in! :-) Tomas e (talk) 18:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)