Talk:Macedonian Americans

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Dablink[edit]

I have restored the dablink per Macedonian Canadians and Macedonian Australians, for the reasons outlined on the respective talk pages. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. Please see Talk:Macedonian Canadians for the original discussion and Talk:Macedonian Australians for further information. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image[edit]

Since the image is OK,i'm putting it back!Makedonij (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:User:Local hero, the image under question was added in 20:07, at 28 October 2019 by User:Jogosoccer. Jingiby (talk) 18:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. What are the reasons to have this lead image? Does it conform with MOS:LEADIMAGE? If it's historically relevant, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the lead. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might be moved to the History section, but it should stay in the article. Probably the reason why it is the leading picture is the obsession related to Alexander the Great in today's North Macedonia, until it became clear out that there are Bulgarians from Macedonia on the picture, and now apparently the interest is gone. Jingiby (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I'll remove it from the infobox then. Whether it is relevant enough to be moved elsewhere, I'm not sure. --Local hero talk 23:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Mak Ams[edit]

I ordered them by letter and wrote a brief description for each person, it looks more organized and better then before. Mactruth (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I trimmed them down a bit (a lot). Find sources (neutral once) for those removed and since BalkanFever doesn't like red links in notable people paragraphs, make them blue, please.--Laveol T 21:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I re-added the people I found neutral sources for. For the red linked people, I will work on them n the future. Mactruth (talk) 02:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source credibility[edit]

What kind of a source is that - [1]. I read it and couldn't decide should I laugh or should I cry, really. What the hell was that stuff about some Dragan of Ohrid being the first white man to set his foot on the new world??? And besides the whole article is a copyright violation cause it has whole passages of that text. --Laveol T 19:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dragan of Ohrid is Alonso de Ojeda :) There's this fringe theory that he was a Bulgarian from Ohrid who fled west and became a Spanish explorer, but I fail to see what this has to do with any Macedonians and why the hell it's presented as the truth when it's just an unlikely theory. But then again you shouldn't trust a source that claims Albania is to the east and Bulgaria is to the west of the Republic of Macedonia :D This is obviously a propaganda move to include Bulgaria in the crappy war-torn Western Balkans! ^^ Todor→Bozhinov 15:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed the part about the self determination of these people before 1945, there is no source and there are no Macedonians in the list born before this year (there are one Serb and one Greek) Proudbulgarian (talk) 18:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added several neutral, credible sources (all verifiable and primary sources) that most Macedonians identified as Macedonians in the early 20th century. Why should they not be allowed? This is an article about Macedonians, and these sources directly contradict the following statement claiming all Macedonian immigrants in the early 1900s declared themselves as Bulgarians or Bulgarian-Macedonians. Further, I included primary sources from that time period, which is stronger evidence. Here are a list of the sources and edits:

During the entire 20th century, Macedonian immigrants consistently identified as Macedonians, as indicated by census data, immigration records, newspapers and several testimonials.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.149.231 (talk) 12:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Victor Sinadinoski, "Macedonians in America: Their Lives and Struggles During the 20th Century", 2017. https://www.amazon.com/Macedonians-America-Struggles-during-Century/dp/1974101207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505619983&sr=8-1&keywords=macedonians+in+america
  2. ^ “Proclaim Clean Up in Three Tongues”, Harrisburg Telegraph (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania) · Tue, May 5, 1914 · First Edition · Page 7. In 1914, Burgess Wigfield of Steelton decided to go on a ten-day cleaning spree of the town. He requested from the city council for the City to allow him to print and distribute hundreds of circulars in three languages. “In English, Slavish and Macedonian languages that fact will be proclaimed throughout Steelton today,” wrote the Harrisburg Telegraph.
  3. ^ Sample of US World War I draft cards with Macedonians listing their race/nationality as Macedonian: "United States World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6NW-D22 : 12 December 2014), Vany Echoff, 1917-1918; citing Stark County no 1, Ohio, United States, NARA microfilm publication M1509 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.); FHL microfilm 1,851,188. + "United States World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6D5-R39 : 12 December 2014), Christ Bogedan Slavoff, 1917-1918; citing Madison County no 2, Illinois, United States, NARA microfilm publication M1509 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.); FHL microfilm 1,614,327. + "United States World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K66P-LT7 : 12 December 2014), Thomas Slavoff, 1917-1918; citing Calhoun County, Michigan, United States, NARA microfilm publication M1509 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.); FHL microfilm 1,675,130.
  4. ^ 1920 US Census showing in Granite City that hundreds of Macedonian-Americans put Macedonian as their mother tongue: "United States Census, 1920," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJHF-H7Y : accessed 14 July 2017), Anastas Mitsareff, Granite Ward 5, Madison, Illinois, United States; citing ED 85, sheet 4B, line 84, family 84, NARA microfilm publication T625 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1992), roll 390; FHL microfilm 1,820,390.
  5. ^ Fort Wayne Weekly Journal-Gazette (Fort Wayne, Indiana) · Thu, Feb 25, 1909 · Page 8. In 1909, Fort Wayne’s Judge O’Rourke ruled that Space Petro, an individual seeking license to open a saloon, was an “ignorant Macedonian.” The judge stated: “Space Petro, the evidence shows, is a Macedonian – came to this country six years ago, leaving his wife behind him in his own country.
  6. ^ “Incorporations”, The Indianapolis Star (Indianapolis, Indiana) · Tue, Jul 7, 1925, Page 12. The incorporation statement of the MPO in the mid-1920s stated that the purpose of their organization was “for the mutual assistance and protection of people of the Macedonian race.” The three Board Directors at the time were Theodore Vasiloff, Stanley Georgioff, and Gil Sarbinoff.
  7. ^ “Macedonian at Embury Church”, The Scranton Republican (Scranton, Pennsylvania)31 Oct 1908, Sat Page 12. Mr. Vishanoff (an educated Macedonian-American in the late 19th and early 20th century) would give speeches to crowds of Americans in the Macedonian tongue. Announcements for his lecture often read like this one from 1908: “He will appear in his nobleman’s costume, will sing in Macedonian and Bulgarian language, and will also exhibit some Macedonian and Bulgarian curiosities after his address.”
  8. ^ “Trolley Conductor Who Won Master’s Degree”, San Francisco Chronicle (San Francisco, California) · Mon, Jul 8, 1901 · Page 2. In 1901, Constantine Stephanove stated: “I am proud to be known as a Greek, but in truth I am not one. I am a Macedonian.”
Please, check: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history). Keep in mind that historical scholarship and relisble source are generally not:
  • Journalism
  • Opinion pieces by non-scholars
  • Popular works that were not reviewed, especially works by journalists, or memoirs—these may be useful to supplement an article that relies upon scholarly sources
  • Any primary source. I.e. all of what you have provided here is not reliable. Thanks. 12:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

So, if the 1920 US Census is not a reliable source, then what is? If World War 1 Draft Registration Cards are not reliable sources, then what are? If the words of the Macedonians during that time are not reliable sources, then what are? Wikipedia policy says that reliable sources must be accompanied by secondary sources. I included that secondary source by a scholar with 3 diplomas. All those are reliable and referable with the links I provided. Actually, the sources I provided are more aligned with Wikipedia policy than are the sources attached to the statement regarding Macedonians referring to themselves as Bulgarians. So, if we are applying an equal interpretation of the policy, it should be applied to both statements equally and fairly. For example, if the 1920 US Census can't be used by itself -- or in combination with other sources -- regarding this specific statement, then it shouldn't be used by itself or combined with similar sources of like comparability regarding other statements. Apply the policy equally. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.149.231 (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, Macedonians in the USA, Politics. p. 692, edited by Stephan Thernstrom 1980, Belknap Press of Harvard University, Reproduced 2001 with permission of the publisher. That is reliable source cited by other researchers and academic publishing houses. It claims: “The Macedonians: Immigrants from Macedonia came to the United States in significant numbers during the early years of the 20th century. Until World War II almost all of them thought of themselves as Bulgarians and identified themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians...The greatest advances in the growth of a distinct Macedonian-American community have occurred since the late 1950's. The new immigrants came from Yugoslavia's Socialist Republic of Macedonia, where since World War II they had been educated to believe that Macedonians composed a culturally and linguistically distinct nationality; the historic ties with Bulgarians in particular were deemphasized. These new immigrants not only are convinced of their own Macedonian national identity but also have been instrumental in transmitting these feelings to older Bulganan-oriented immigrants from Macedonia.” Please, revert your self to the version before edit warring. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the IP's edits are generally fair. For example, I don't see why US Census data cannot be included. --Local hero talk 19:46, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at the referenced US census link for example for the sentence: "During the entire 20th century, Macedonian immigrants consistently identified as Macedonians, as indicated by census data, immigration records, newspapers and several testimonials". I don't see how a random example of one person (the cited link of the census shows only this) supports this statement and is thus relevant. Aside form this, it does ring the bell of Wikipedia:No original research.--Алиса Селезньова (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The cited book, in combination with other listed sources, provide several sources. Wiki policy does not say that certain sources cannot be used, but that only using one such source would not be reliable. But using a combination of several sources (as has been done) is recommended. However, it's quite ironic that we have biased people (Bulgarians) stating that the sources for pro-Macedonian views are not reliable, but then using similarly credible (or even less reliable) sources to purport their claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.149.231 (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian at the first half of the 20th century, was widely used as a regional self-designation from the Slavs from Macedonia. In his early years in America, Macedonian emigrants saw no difference in using the terms "Macedonian" and "Macedonian Bulgarian" interchangeably in reference to their native identity. Even today Macedonian is widely used in Bulgaria, for Bulgarians from Pirin Macedonia. But this does not mean they are Ethnic Macedonians. Becouse of that, we must use here reliable - secondary and tertiary academic and encyclopaedic sources, which can distinguish these specific differences. Jingiby (talk) 04:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is incorrect. Many Macedonians did indeed see a difference between "Macedonian" and "Macedonian Bulgarian" and identified themselves only as Macedonians, as evidenced in all the sources indicated -- primary, secondary and tertiary sources included. Further, the word "ethnic" did not gain any prominence in the English language until the 1940s and 1950s, meaning that to say Macedonians didn't use the word "Macedonian" in the "ethnic" sense is not fair -- neither did Bulgarians or Serbians. The words Bulgarian, Serbian, Macedonian and Greek were used in the context of "nation", and many Macedonians felt they were part of the Macedonian nation and not the Bulgarian, Serbian or Greek nation. Further, when Macedonians said they were Bulgarian, Greek or Serbian, they in truth were indicating to which Church they belonged -- this is well-documented in Brailsford's "Macedonia" from 1905, which stated that nationality in Macedonia was completely related to church affiliation. So, then, any Macedonian referring to themselves as Bulgarian, Greek or Serbian were not referring to what ethnicity or nation they belonged to, but rather to what church they belonged to.

Let us also keep in mind Wiki's policy on what counts as credible/reliable sources:

"In general, the most reliable sources are: Peer-reviewed journals Books published by university presses University-level textbooks Magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses Mainstream newspapers"— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.164.201 (talk) 13:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The sources cited come from a variety of these sources. For example, these sources include mainstream newspapers. Thus, including these resources does not amount to original research -- they are things that have already been published in different mediums.

Your contributions have been removed. Your latest contribution have been reverted because it removes soruced information. Your first contrubution is reveted because the it removes sourced informaiton, newly added sources does not support the claims or indicate just single cases. --StanProg (talk) 14:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your act has been undone because it removes newly added sources that does support the made claims and indicates more than just single cases. Refer to the books, US Census Data, World War I Draft Registration Cards, Mainstream newspaper articles, and etc. These are all allowed per Wiki policy, especially in combination with one another.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.164.201 (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How does your first source "Victor Sinadinosk" supports the "consistent declaration as Macedonian"? It does not even specify a page from that book. How does your 2nd source "Proclaim Clean Up in Three Tongues" supports it, when it just quotes some languages? How exactly your 3rd source, which shows cards of 3 people indicates the "consistent declaration" during the years? Your 4th source indicates that a specific citizen, have Macedonia as birthplace. Do you think it is enough to remove the sources about Bulgarian identification directly indicated by the author just by a birthplace on 1 single person? In your 5th source the newspaper writes about a single "ignorant Macedonian" and this is enough to write that all the people from Macedonia emigrated to US have Macedonian identification? There's no even self-identification in this quote, just that some guy have called an US citizen "ignorant Macedonian". Your 6th source is talking about "people of the Macedonian race" and does not support the claims. The 7th source is about a "Macedonian-American" that will sing in Macedonian and Bulgarian and will "exhibit some Macedonian and Bulgarian curiosities". This is not self-identification and is not even close to proving anything. And your last 8th source is a self-identification of a single person. Basically what you've done is to collect POV sentences from books that mention "Macedonian" and based on that you've come to a conclusion for "consistent declaration as Macedonian". This is called an original research and is not allowed in Wikipedia. Collecting sources just to prove your POV is not acceptable. Also, removing sourced information without a good reason is called a vandalism. Please, take your time to read the Wikipedia polices before doing more reverts. --StanProg (talk) 14:59, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The chapter cited in the book includes all of those sources listed, as well as hundreds more. It also includes more information from the US Census Data and WW1 Draft Cards. Further, saying "people of the Macedonian race" shows that Macedonian was considered a separate race than Bulgarians in America and that there were people considered themselves Macedonian and not Bulgarian, which counters the claim that all Macedonians in the early 20th century were really Bulgarians. The fifth source doesn't just say he is an ignorant Macedonian, but that he is a Macedonian (not a Bulgarian). The seventh source shows that, in the early 1900s, someone portrayed himself as singing in Macedonian and Bulgarian, which further supports that Macedonian and Bulgarian were considered different. The eight source is the identification of a single person stating that he says he is a Macedonian (not a Greek or Bulgarian), which again counters the claim that all Macedonians from the early 20th century considered themselves as Bulgarians and none just as Macedonians. Finally, this is not original research because all these sources are cited in the book sourced (Sinadinoski).

It is also ironic that there are a handful of statements on this entire page that still say "Citation needed" and those aren't receiving the same criticism. Furthermore, Wiki policy states that a statement doesn't need to be attributed, it just needs to be attributable. It seems like that it can be easily attributable that "Macedonians identified as Macedonians in the early 20th century." I'll take out the word consistently.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.164.201 (talk) 19:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IP 75.144.164.201, please refrain from reducing content to WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Note, also, that this is a Wikipedia talk page, not a soapbox. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
IP, reliable sources in the area of historical scholarship are:
  • Books published by academic and scholarly presses by historians, as reviewed in scholarly historical journals or as demonstrated by past works of a similar nature by the historian. Historians carry out original research, often using primary sources. They usually have a PhD or advanced academic training in historiography.
  • Chapters in books published by academic and scholarly presses by or edited by historians, as reviewed in scholarly historical journals or as demonstrated by past works of a similar nature by the historian or editors
  • Research articles by historians in scholarly peer-reviewed journals
  • Books, book chapters and articles by social scientists and scholars in the humanities, working within their area of expertise
  • Other works that are recognised as scholarship by other historians (by review or discussion), which were reviewed or edited by a scholarly press or committee before publication
    • These works could include signed articles in encyclopedia that are aimed at a scholarly public of historians. All provided by you above sources, do not meet these criteria. Please, provide reliable scientific references, supporting your view here for discussion. Wikipedia is not a place for original research or for publishing here synthesis of published material. Also, when nearly all comments of the editors here, oppose to your point of view, do not change the article only because you dislike it. Jingiby (talk) 05:33, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Provided a link displayng the content of the article Macedonians from the Harvard Encyclopedia:excerpt from page 692. Jingiby (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

list of names[edit]

Since there is a stand alone List of Macedonian Americans, is there any reason to continue having a list in this article also? I know that this has been done customarily in many such fooian American articles, but should it continue. Is there a good forum where this could be discussed for the general case? Any removal from this article will, in any case, first have to be preceded by adding any missing names to the afore mentioned list. Hmains (talk) 05:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I think that the list is reasonable, and we have some precedent for such lists in articles as well as independently, I would not be against having only the independent list if a) there were a link in this article, and b) that did not increase the chance of losing the info altogether through possible AfD.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images[edit]

I don't see the relevance of the New York City skyline to Macedonian Americans, or any particular ethnic group for that matter. An image of a Macedonian Orthodox church in New York would make much more sense. I don't know if we've got one like that but, if we don't, the other two are sufficient. --Local hero talk 00:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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