Talk:Madonna (entertainer)

No word about her affinity to the Cabala and the Occult

This woman presents her faith in the occult powers openly and she says openly that she is a student of the Cabala. But no word about it here in Wikipedia. Someone should insert it. (Now we are more than 10 people observing the evident censorship behavior of this mass media technology ... go on, delete this line). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.55.194.186 (talk) 07:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, it is spelled "Kabbalah". Secondly, it is not an occult practice, but "mystical judaism" (something that many rabis are encouraged to practice). The article actually DOES talk about her involvement with Kabbalah after the birth of her daughter, Lourdes. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Porn past =

I guess Obama-loving Kool-Aid-drinking Wikipedia editors only like the truth of THEIR choosing. Madonna made at least one porn movie back in 1979. Yet no Wikipedia editor seems to be interested. Madonna of course managed to erase that part of her past and Wikipedia is quite happy with half-truths. No wonder they're Al Gore fans. Ready for more Hope and Change, you stupid gullible peons? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.60.54.205 (talk) 07:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you film your referring to is A Certain Sacrifice which was filmed in 1979 and released in 1985 at the height of Madonna's fame. This film is included in her filmography page on this site. It is not a "porn" film, but an independent, experimental film which includes scenes of nudity, rape and murder. Please get your facts correct before coming out with weird insinuations and racist comments. Pathetic. 2012 ^{Communicate|Nicely} 17:05, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

weird and pathetic, yes. racist? --96.20.251.10 (talk) 18:47, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

"Obama-loving Kool-Aid-drinking" is not racist to you? Thats weird! 2012 ^{Communicate|Nicely} 20:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

"kool-aid drinkers" is a reference to blindly following ideas. It stems from the Jonestown incident. While there is also a stereotype about black liking kool-aid (in a literal, rather than metaphorical way), the guys use of the term doesn't seem to refer to that. I've got to rule on the side of "wrong, maybe crazy, but not racist." 108.85.122.100 (talk) 05:08, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

This immature behavior does not belong on wikipedia. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:37, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

M.D.N.A. is the title of Album 12

From Madonna's Facebook feed: "Madonna just officially announced the name of her upcoming studio album, which is 'M.D.N.A'!" 66.26.95.207 (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Have any news sources confirmed this? Please provide links. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the confirmation: https://www.facebook.com/madonna/posts/10150587188209402 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.70.216.46 (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

News sources, not facebook updates. Like reliable sources, such as highly reputable websites. Thank you and please remember in the future. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 18:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind. Why did I reply. ~~

she's a old plagiarist of the devil!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.34.254.251 (talk) 07:47, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably a moot point now, but from the wiki guidelines: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material. [emphasis mine]. A tweet or post by the subject announcing the title of a work would be an appropriate source. 108.85.122.100 (talk) 05:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

New album title (slight change)

madonna.com has updated the reference [1] and the album title is now called simply MDNA with no points inbetween (before it was written as M.D.N.A.) Its the same for "Give Me All Your Luvin" (the original madonna.com link stated the single as "Gimme All Your Luvin") - they have updated both links with their new titles. Even Madonna's official youtube account has released an MDNA Teaser video here [2] 2012 ^{Communicate|Nicely} 20:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

New Infobox picture

I believe a new more recent infobox picture should be uploaded (the current one is from almost 4 years ago). --189.241.143.62 (talk) 02:24, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

If you have a high-quality free image of her face we can change it. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 04:36, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I've found some great pictures of her from 2011-2012 in Flickr. I've contacted the owners but so far none of them have answered back :( I'll try contacting them again--148.241.97.247 (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Partial source audit

Given ongoing concerns about use of sources by User:Legolas2186, who nominated this article for FA status, I have started spot-checking sources for this article. I have found an alarming number of issues: 10 in the first 32 refs checked. The high rate of problems indicates a complete work-over is going to be needed if this is to maintain Featured Article status. This is a high-visibility BLP, so this should be considered an urgent matter.

Note: I do not believe I found any instances of deliberate fabrication of information about the subject. Most of these statements are probably accurate, but are not verifiable because the sources that been cited have nothing to do with the text. Very strange.

Ref 3, close paraphrasing:

• Article text: "Madonna was nicknamed 'Little Nonni' to distinguish her from her mother."
• Source text: "They nickname her "Little Nonni" to distinguish her from her mother."

Ref 4(b), fails verification:

• Article text: "Her mother died of breast cancer at the age of 30 in 1963."
• Source text: "In December 1963, Mrs. Ciccone died of breast cancer at the age of 31..."

Ref 4(c), fails verification:

• Article text: "Madonna later attended Rochester Adams High School, and was a straight-A student and a member of the cheerleading squad."
• Source text: Does not mention her being a "straight-A student".
  • Multiple reliable sources dating from before Wikipedia confirm straight As: "Madonna was a cheerleader and straight-A student", "she became a straight-A student in an attempt to win her father's approval", "I was a straight-A student, and they all hated me for it", "She got straight As", and "She was a very goal-oriented student and always brought home straight A's on her report card." Binksternet (talk) 16:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Ref 4(d), fails verification:

• Article text: "However, she was allowed to retain her fee of five million dollars."
• Source text: Does not mention the fee at all.

Ref 8, fails verification:

• Article text: "Her father married the family's housekeeper Joan Gustafson, and they had two children: Jennifer and Mario Ciccone."
• Source text: Does not mention Jennifer and Mario.

Ref 20, fails verification:

• Article text: "Her first documentary film Truth or Dare (known as In Bed with Madonna outside North America) was released in mid-1991. The documentary chronicled her Blond Ambition World Tour and provided glimpses into her personal life."
• Source text: Does not mention alternate title or anything about "glimpses into her personal life".

Ref 20, incorrect/fails verification:

• Article text: "Madonna signed a singles deal with Sire, a label belonging to Warner Bros. Records."
• Source text: Does not mention who the label belongs to, and the article text is correct anyway. The label belongs to Warner Music Group.

Did it in 1982? Gimmetoo (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Ref 22(a), fails verification:

• Article text: "Her debut single, "Everybody", was released on October 6, 1982, and became a dance hit."
• Source text: Does not mention the single "Everybody" at all.

Ref 32(a), fails verification:

• Article text: "Madonna further came under fire when she performed the song at the first MTV Video Music Awards where she appeared on stage atop a giant wedding cake, wearing a wedding dress and bridal veil, adorned with her characteristic "Boy Toy" belt buckle. The performance is noted by scholars and by MTV as an iconic performance in MTV history."
• Source text: No mention of some details (such as belt buckle) or "noted by scholars". Not at all sure what that's referring to.

Ref 32(b), misapplied/redundant.

More surely to come. --Laser brain (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This is important work; thanks for starting on it. The article is high traffic and BLP, so we should get it right! Binksternet (talk) 05:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Comments on this version of the article.

• Bronson 2002 (#56, #79, & #118) is undefined, although it may be Bronson 2003 in Further reading.
• Michael 2004 (#95, #96, & #107) is also undefined, but may be seeking St. Michael 2004.
• Taraborrelli 2003 (#136) is another undefined source, that may be intended to be Taraborrelli 2002.

Alarbus (talk) 06:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Refs 21 and 22 (in the current version) are probably switched. Ref 21 does mention "Everybody", with a release date of April 24, 1982, which was the date given in the article though much of its history, and ref 22 is more focused on the recording contract. Gimmetoo (talk) 13:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

• Laserbrain, thanks for taking the lead on this. Is there anyone here who is interested in working on the article to make sure that all of the sources cover all of the proper information? If not, this article needs to go up for FAR. I can do the paperwork of a FAR, but just wanted to make sure there wasn't anyone out there that is planning to work this article up to featured quality. Dana boomer (talk) 15:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

• So far, this thread is effectively the FAR. We can formalize it or not but I think we have a motivated group. Binksternet (talk) 16:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

• Changed my mind: A formal FAR will leave a more specific track for later editors to follow. Binksternet (talk) 05:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• As Gimmetoo noted above, many of these could be easy fixes. Where verification is failed, another ref could almost certainly be moved in that verifies the text. I have yet to find anything untrue in the article—it's just that the wrong source is cited. I will help fix the article as I have time. --Laser brain (talk) 22:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I just added a new reference early in the article so it will throw off the numbering of later cites as discussed here. Binksternet (talk) 16:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

A good thing would be to note down which refs are good in that they don't paraphrase and say what the source says they say. it'd be a great help to get a sense of the proportion of good to problematic footnotes here. Sorry I can't do more myself as I am tidying up some other things. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Formatting

"career and personal life" should be separated into two sections as most other wiki biographies are. 108.85.122.100 (talk) 05:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Such a separation may be convenient for some people but for others it would make for a jerky chronology while needlessly separating personal and career developments that are aligned or parallel. I think the chronological method works okay here. Binksternet (talk) 05:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Title

Don't know if this has been discussed before, but why is this article titled Madonna (entertainer)? Surely it should be Madonna (singer) in line with other singers. Yes, she has done some acting, but she rose to fame as a singer and continues to be first and foremost known as a singer. Entertainer makes her sound like a circus performer or children's entertainer. It's very non-specific.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 22:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

She's done more than some acting. Granted she's a better singer, but for someone with as much acting experience as she, the article has to reflect both. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 22:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Better "zooming" lead

Hi,

Recently I've made some editing of the lead, but it was reverted by user:Bluesatellite citing that "Huge change for a FA-class article should be discussed first". So I go here. =}

My vision: I like the first paragraph being another "nutshell layer". The first layer is (of course) the first sentence, and the third layer for me is the lead as a whole (the next layers being sections and - in a way - "sub"articles, if the subject is too broad). I like the conception of "zooming into the subject" to be more coherent, that's why I try to make first paragraph autonomous as a second layer, and so I would like to have here all the main achievements, and not the artist's introduction to the career. The lead for me doesn't even have to be chronological overview, it's better when its paragraphs rather concentrate on most important things and glue them into logical (as a contrast of chronological) "clusters". kocio (talk) 12:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you possibly post your proposed lead here, so we can easily see what you are suggesting? --Laser brain (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

This link (which was inserted into my first sentence) gets you to the version I made. You can also check the difference. kocio (talk) 14:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I think your version is much better than what is there now. It places more emphasis on what is most important about the subject. Maybe Bluesatellite can explain why they disagree. --Laser brain (talk) 14:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Linked lead section is better than current. It quickly establishes the importance of the topic. Binksternet (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, so I changed the lead once more since it doesn't look like controversial. Bluesatellite was informed about it, was active in the time of the discussion, and didn't make a single comment here, so I guess he just wanted such a change not to go unnoticed, not to object to merits of the change. I don't consider it a "huge" change nevertheless, but now I think everybody should be happy. ;-} kocio (talk) 09:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation

Pronunciation of her last name should be checked. Someone gave it a faux-Italian transcription. — kwami (talk) 08:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)