Talk:Mahmoud Abbas

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shahid and martyr[edit]

Since the words shahid and martyr are interchangable an alternate translation might be "I present this victory to the soul of brother Yassir Arafat and to our other martyrs," instead of: "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids,"

I've removed the following text:

Recently, Abbas was the target of a al-Fatah attack. During a celebration where he figured, a large number of masked males appeared. They appearently fired in the air. It is unclear to me, but the incident ended with the death of two bodyguards. Abbas himself had been wisked away before the firing started. Later, Abbas has recented the incident as an assasination attempt, but rather as a clash between two security forces that had gone awry. Palestinian security officials later supported this view.

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A friend points out that he is called "Mahmoud Abbas" in the American press, and "Abu Mazen" everywhere else. Anyone have a more complete story on where his name comes from? This might help us decide what the "official" page should be. Graft 19:25, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Mahmoud Abbas is his actual name, while "Abu Mazen" is an adopted nom-de-guerre. I'm not sure what "Abu" means, but it's very common as a nom-de-guerre for Palestinians -- Yassir Arafat, for example, adopted the name Abu Amr, though he rarely uses it anymore, and there are quite a few other examples. --Delirium 19:29, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)
Here in Germany he's called "Mahmud Abbas" as well. But, as I have heard, arabians tend to like changing their names all the time. A friend of mine, an attorney, told me how difficult that makes prosecuting arabian terrorists (or suspects) here, because it's also fairly common among rightous people... By the way, as far as I know "abu" means father. --malbi

For the record, this was originally at [[Abu Mazen]], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When used like this, "Abu" means "Father of" or "Man of" in Arabic. Many Arab nationalists adopt this kind of nom de guerre, e.g. Abu Nidal (father of the struggle), Abu Mazen, Abu Jihad (father of jihad), Abu Sayaff (father of the sword), etc. Interestingly, a similar thing occurs with Jewish nationalists, who upon entering Israeli society typically leave their diaspora names behind them. Chadloder 15:42, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Title of Yasser Arafat[edit]

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

When Chairman Arafat enters the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, he will use the title 'Chairman (Ra'ees in Arabic) of the Palestinian Authority' or 'Chairman of the PLO', and will not use the title 'President of Palestine.'

Since then, Arafats official title in all international documents has been "Chairman" - either of the PLO or the PA. The PA was established, and its structure was formed, as part of an international agreement. Arafat can call himself whatever he likes on his website - his official title will still be "Chairman of the PA".

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the basic document of the PA? The letter by Rabin does not carry any legal standing, I believe. Is this an issue like with the FYROM, where the international community does not recognize the legal/domestic name? --Jiang 08:43, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not find the document you requested. However, here is an example of an international statement from 2000 which Arafat is a side to, and which referrs to him as "Palestinian Authority Chairman": [1].

This is perhaps somewhat like the issue with FYROM - except that Macedonia is an independent state (this is not disputed) - and therefore has more autonomy in deciding on its own name, whereas the PA is merely an "authority" - a product of international agreements - and is bound more strictly by those agreements.

The fact that the term "President of the PA" is never used in any official document to which the US (or Israel) is a side to - even when the PA is a side to the document - serves as an evidence that this title is not internationally recognized.

Since this seems to be a disputed issue (I did find some non-Palestinian references to "President Arafat", alongside references to Arafat as "Chairman of the PA") - I suggest that we remove his title completely from this article, and explain the situation in the Yasser Arafat article.

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Re Abu Mazen, the name is not a nom-de-guerre. It is a real name, meaning father of Mazen. Many Arabs change their name on the birth of their first son to Abu 'name of son' . Irish people followed a similar custom but linked to the father's name. Conor Ó Brien, meant Conor, son of Brien. Conor's son Sorley would be called Sorley Ó Connor, his son Padraic in turn would be called Padraic MacSorley, etc. However the tradition of changing names to link with a father's name has long since died out, but words like Ó (O'), Mc (Mac), etc symbolise that old link. Calling Abu Mazen a nom-de-guerre is misleading, as it is a real name adopted following Arab custom. A nom-de-guerre is a different thing entirely. Some Arab leaders do have Abu - xxx nom-de-guerres, but Mazen isn't one of them. FearÉIREANN 18:55, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)


Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it indicates that they may or may not be true. If multiple people had said the same thing, or it came from a neutral source, that'd be one thing. But it comes from a single source who is known to have a rivalry with the PA, so that makes it somewhat suspect. --Delirium 23:23, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...the timing does not fit well. Daoud published in 1999 (could have been written earlier) Abbas had a promient role then that would cause Daoud to target him for a false allegation? What role? OneVoice 12:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better if we could find a reply from Abbas and replace the "not corroborated by others" line with something like "Abbas denies the charges, saying '...'" (since I assume he denies the charges)? I'll do some searching in a bit. The main thing I objected to was presenting Daoud's charges as unopposed fact, when they're not generally considered such (I don't think even the US accepted them, or at least it didn't say much about them). --Delirium 21:48, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

New Material[edit]

The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.

"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [2]

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Baha'i?[edit]

I've heard a rumor about Mahmoud Abbas that he's a Baha'i, this should be researched and confirmed, if so, we should add him to the list of Baha'is.  :) Any comments? --Agari 14:36, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

I've heard that this was a rumour put about by Mossad in order to discredit him, and I recall people posting (on usenet Baha'i sites I regularly read) articles where he denies this. So, no he shouldn't be added to lists of Baha'is. I can try to look up those posts if anyone is interested. PaulHammond 22:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Abu Mazen has repeatedly denied this, but it has repeatedly been used against him (e.g. by Osama Bin Laden and the ex Shin Bet chief)

I have done quite a bit of research into this question (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BahaiMonitor/message/2)

I think this is an interesting question and relevant to Abu Mazen so it should be included. Any comments? User:AndrewRT 62.7.148.208 14:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


Two points to settle the matter:

1) One of the twelve fundamental principles of the Bahá'í Faith is obedience to government and non-involvement in politics. This would mean that, if Abu Mazen were Baha'i, he has spent the last fifty years of his life blatantly disregarding one of the fundamental precepts of his prophet and church.

2) Not only is the Universal House of Justice (that is, the physical center of the Baha'i faith), located in Haifa, Israel, but the Baha'i have never challenged the establishment of Israel. Abu Mazen was nominally opposed to its existence until 1974.

Of course, Abu Mazen could have had an interest in Baha'i theology... but he would never have been accepted as active member in the church because of his political activities. End of story. --(Mingus ah um 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC))


No, not end of story, how many politicians do you know who have defied their religous beliefs? are you telling me ever baha'i, christian, muslim jew etc follow all aspects of their religion? Hardly. Furthermore, Hamas recognise Mahmoud Abbas as a Baha'i so there you go. (Truth 06 08:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

Never heard about this, very interesting if true, though it would put the Bahai faith into "some shame" (though it's not their fault) because like said they're real respectful of Israel and of other beliefs, and are peaceful people, while Abu Mazen atleast throughout most of his life wasn't. Amoruso 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
He's not a Baha'i. The rumours were started by those who were opposed to him and wanted to discredit him (much the same way people in Iran are discredited by starting rumours that they are Baha'is). Mahmoud Abbas has stated that he's a practising Muslim. See [3] [4] [5] [6]. Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Charged?[edit]

"He has been charged with involvement in terrorism" - has he actually been charged in a court of law, or merely accused? If it is a mere accusation, the wording should make that clear. Does anyone know more detail about this? --Smoddy 14:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Charged?[edit]

I've removed the following text:

Recently, Abbas was the target of a al-Fatah attack. During a celebration where he figured, a large number of masked males appeared. They appearently fired in the air. It is unclear to me, but the incident ended with the death of two bodyguards. Abbas himself had been wisked away before the firing started. Later, Abbas has recented the incident as an assasination attempt, but rather as a clash between two security forces that had gone awry. Palestinian security officials later supported this view.

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A friend points out that he is called "Mahmoud Abbas" in the American press, and "Abu Mazen" everywhere else. Anyone have a more complete story on where his name comes from? This might help us decide what the "official" page should be. Graft 19:25, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Mahmoud Abbas is his actual name, while "Abu Mazen" is an adopted nom-de-guerre. I'm not sure what "Abu" means, but it's very common as a nom-de-guerre for Palestinians -- Yassir Arafat, for example, adopted the name Abu Amr, though he rarely uses it anymore, and there are quite a few other examples. --Delirium 19:29, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)
Here in Germany he's called "Mahmud Abbas" as well. But, as I have heard, arabians tend to like changing their names all the time. A friend of mine, an attorney, told me how difficult that makes prosecuting arabian terrorists (or suspects) here, because it's also fairly common among rightous people... By the way, as far as I know "abu" means father. --malbi

For the record, this was originally at [[Abu Mazen]], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When used like this, "Abu" means "Father of" or "Man of" in Arabic. Many Arab nationalists adopt this kind of nom de guerre, e.g. Abu Nidal (father of the struggle), Abu Mazen, Abu Jihad (father of jihad), Abu Sayaff (father of the sword), etc. Interestingly, a similar thing occurs with Jewish nationalists, who upon entering Israeli society typically leave their diaspora names behind them. Chadloder 15:42, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Title of Yasser Arafat[edit]

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

When Chairman Arafat enters the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, he will use the title 'Chairman (Ra'ees in Arabic) of the Palestinian Authority' or 'Chairman of the PLO', and will not use the title 'President of Palestine.'

Since then, Arafats official title in all international documents has been "Chairman" - either of the PLO or the PA. The PA was established, and its structure was formed, as part of an international agreement. Arafat can call himself whatever he likes on his website - his official title will still be "Chairman of the PA".

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the basic document of the PA? The letter by Rabin does not carry any legal standing, I believe. Is this an issue like with the FYROM, where the international community does not recognize the legal/domestic name? --Jiang 08:43, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not find the document you requested. However, here is an example of an international statement from 2000 which Arafat is a side to, and which referrs to him as "Palestinian Authority Chairman": [7].

This is perhaps somewhat like the issue with FYROM - except that Macedonia is an independent state (this is not disputed) - and therefore has more autonomy in deciding on its own name, whereas the PA is merely an "authority" - a product of international agreements - and is bound more strictly by those agreements.

The fact that the term "President of the PA" is never used in any official document to which the US (or Israel) is a side to - even when the PA is a side to the document - serves as an evidence that this title is not internationally recognized.

Since this seems to be a disputed issue (I did find some non-Palestinian references to "President Arafat", alongside references to Arafat as "Chairman of the PA") - I suggest that we remove his title completely from this article, and explain the situation in the Yasser Arafat article.

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Re Abu Mazen, the name is not a nom-de-guerre. It is a real name, meaning father of Mazen. Many Arabs change their name on the birth of their first son to Abu 'name of son' . Irish people followed a similar custom but linked to the father's name. Conor Ó Brien, meant Conor, son of Brien. Conor's son Sorley would be called Sorley Ó Connor, his son Padraic in turn would be called Padraic MacSorley, etc. However the tradition of changing names to link with a father's name has long since died out, but words like Ó (O'), Mc (Mac), etc symbolise that old link. Calling Abu Mazen a nom-de-guerre is misleading, as it is a real name adopted following Arab custom. A nom-de-guerre is a different thing entirely. Some Arab leaders do have Abu - xxx nom-de-guerres, but Mazen isn't one of them. FearÉIREANN 18:55, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)


Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it indicates that they may or may not be true. If multiple people had said the same thing, or it came from a neutral source, that'd be one thing. But it comes from a single source who is known to have a rivalry with the PA, so that makes it somewhat suspect. --Delirium 23:23, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...the timing does not fit well. Daoud published in 1999 (could have been written earlier) Abbas had a promient role then that would cause Daoud to target him for a false allegation? What role? OneVoice 12:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better if we could find a reply from Abbas and replace the "not corroborated by others" line with something like "Abbas denies the charges, saying '...'" (since I assume he denies the charges)? I'll do some searching in a bit. The main thing I objected to was presenting Daoud's charges as unopposed fact, when they're not generally considered such (I don't think even the US accepted them, or at least it didn't say much about them). --Delirium 21:48, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

New Material[edit]

The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.

"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [8]

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed non NPOV sentence[edit]

I've taken this out:

Analysts in accurately predicted that these remarks might have harmed his prospects in the then-upcoming election, perhaps neglecting the popular impact of his physical and political embrace of representatives of Hamas, a terrorist group.

Which analyst predicted that? How does the writer know what considerations may or may not have influenced the voting of electors? Who says Hamas are terrorists, and who says Mazen supports them politically, despite his calls for moderation?

Anyway, this article will need a rewrite since Abu Mazen appear to have become the President of the PA today 1 PaulHammond 22:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Missing sources[edit]

The following statements seem suspicious and need sources or explanations:

"However, he refused to disarm Palestinian militants and use force to act against groups that Israel, the United States, and the European Union designated as "terrorist organizations"."

"Upon acceptance, confusion over his position suddenly emerged after statements made to the crowd chanting "a million shahids". Abbas stated, "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids," then promised to protect the "strugglers" wanted by Israel for "terrorist" attacks, and that "the little jihad has ended and now the big jihad is beginning"."

The last paragraph is taking the naughty bits and interpreting them in a non-objective way even if it has a source. It's a shame, because the rest of the article is close to feature status (IMHO). I would remove it myself but I don't want to start an edit war. Palestine-info 06:24, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Satiany should not remove "unreferenced" quotes just because they disagree with his point of view; Wikipedia intends to be NPOV. One of my "unreferenced" quotes had a reference CLEARLY STATED after it. Interestingly, Satiany left in a pro-Abbas quote that had NO references. Nevertheless, I have added a reference to the unferenced quote before readding both quotes.

Reverting the quote[edit]

Hmm. I think that you need to do things to include that quote. First, you need to source it to the book not to an extremely biased website. It's an unreliable source. You need to acquire the book really and see that Abbas did actually say it. I don't doubt he did -- holocaust denial is an ugly and unfortunate part of many Arabs' understanding of the world -- but I think you need to more carefully source. Second, you need to recognise that the accusation of holocaust denial is given prominence earlier in the article and that to then quote him saying exactly that in a "Quotes" section -- which would normally be memorable things that people have said (like the jihad thing, maybe), rather than pointscoring quotes from either side -- rather unbalances the article. Were you to put the reference in the earlier section, that would be much more NPOV. I won't be watching this page and I'm not interested in edit warring but I hope you will give my reasons for removing the quote due consideration. Happy editing, guys.Grace Note 03:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Holocaust Denial is Anti-Semitism[edit]

From Mahmoud Abbas: "His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, which, following his appointment as Palestinian Prime Minister in 2003, was heavily criticized as an example of Holocaust denial. In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were used for the extermination of Jews, and suggested that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was "less than a million." "

From another Talk page: Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic. Jayjg (talk) 04:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, this person should be in the category Anti-Semitism, no?--68.211.197.252 06:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. In my mind, two questions need to be resolved before he should be labeled: 1) When was his thesis written?; and, 2) Is there any indication that he has changed his tune since then? You may ask: why do these questions matter? Well... Thirty years ago, Abbas agreed to accept the existence of Israel... Perhaps he has publicly agreed to accept the tragic reality of the Holocaust as well. If he has, I think his essay should be forgiven but not forgotten.

--(Mingus ah um 02:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

Well, here's a quote from him that's in the article: "The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it." I'd say that's pretty unambiguous. --Delirium 20:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Him thinking that the Holocaust is terrible has nothing to do with him also believing that 'Zionists inflated Holocaust victim counts'. Holocaust denial encompasses revision of the number of victims as well, and you have not shown that he has retracted that position. What is strange about that? TewfikTalk 06:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
You claim that he is currently a Holocaust denier. If that is true, please cite a reliable source corroborating that claim. For example, does the Anti-Defamation League consider him a Holocaust denier? Does anyone except some Wikipedia editors accuse him of, at the present time, being a Holocaust denier? Your personal conclusions do not constitute sufficient evidence under WP:BLP to include a potentially libelous claim in the article. --Delirium 08:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I need not claim that he is currently a holocaust denier - that he was once prominently and notably one would be sufficient, just as he will remain categorised as a Palestinian and politician even if he renounces his nationality and occupation, since he was significantly both. Regarding what the ADL, they specifically address the 2003 interview saying "no clear statement was forthcoming", while he is still included in Wyman Institute's 2004 Global Survey of Holocaust Denial (multiple mentions). I don't grant Norman Finkelstein very much weight, but on Democracy Now! he said "Abbas is an authentic Holocaust denier". TewfikTalk 19:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Is Raul Hilberg a Holocaust denier for tossing an (low) estimate of 5.1 million around? I too find Abbas's first statement both repugnant and factually inaccurate, but I think it cheapens the seriousness of the charge to collapse Abbas's stance with (say) Ahmadinejad's. To me, Holocaust denial is denial of the historicity of the implementation of the "Final Solution," from Wannsee to Auschwitz. Billbrock 04:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I just glanced at the Finkelstein interview on Democracy Now cited above. I'll retract my remark re Abbas--denial of the camps would make one a Holocaust denier.... Billbrock 04:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blessed martyrs[edit]

Wasn't Abu Mazen the name of the palestinian kamikaze warrior who rammed the US Marine HQ in Beirut 1983 with a bomb truck killing circa 200 gringo soldiers? 195.70.32.136 09:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but this would only mean that both Mahmoud Abbas and said individual both named their first-born son Mazen (Abu Mazen = "Father of Mazen"). Such coincidences are common in the Middle East. For more information, check Arabic name. --(Mingus ah um 01:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

"His reputation in the West"[edit]

I'm not too happy with this sentence in the introduction. It seems to be trying to reflect common assumptions in the Anglo-saxon media. I would prefer to see it removed or replaced by something more factual and sourced. Any comments? Palmiro | Talk 19:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I took a quick shot at revising the sentence, but it could still use some work. Here's the original sentence: His reputation in the West is that of a moderating influence in the Palestinian Authority.

...and here's the new one: With Hamas now in control of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas is frequently portrayed as the face of Palestinian moderation.

Perhaps we should also include something about the internal turmoil within Fatah (that is, compare Abbas to some the more radical popular leaders within his own political movement). --(Mingus ah um 02:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

Wow... Is Abbas like a member of the Bush family or WHAT?[edit]

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or step on any toes here, but it just occurred to me that even though there is only ONE mention of U.S. President George W. Bush in the entire article, there are THREE PHOTOS OF HIM here! I am not trying to be anti-Bush or pro-anyone-else here, but I think this somewhat underscores the subtle but ever-present U.S. bias in English Wikipedia. Abbas has met a slew of other world leaders, and talked peace with a lot of them... to photographically portray Bush as being at the forefront of this process is misleading and unnecessary. 68.12.110.233 (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

End of Abbas' Term as President?[edit]

The article says that Hamas considers Abbas' term to have ended on January 9. Does any one dispute that Abbas' term has ended on January 9, and if so, what are their views? That it ends on some other day (which one?), or that it extends indefinitely until the election of his successor (which may not happen for quite a while)? CuriousOliver (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I found some references that elaborate on the situation and edited the article accordingly. I find it interesting that so far no one responded to my question, suggesting that most find Abbas already irrelevant. CuriousOliver (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think maybe we need to distinguish between his elected term and his self-appointed term. I don't know if that'll end the slow edit war over the infobox, but that's my latest thought. -- Kendrick7talk 05:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it really a war? I tried to reform it as much as possible to show the disputed claims a unbiased as I could. I think we shouldn't say put 9 January 2009 as his term end because he is still in office. Even if some consider it illegal, no one can argue that he's definitely still executing his powers as president. We have several current world leaders who's terms have expired but continue as president/prime minister. I think we need to add more emphasis to the fact his term's ended in the article itself, both in a detailed section and the introductory paragraph. However, until he actually does leave office, he remains (at least in the West Bank and the eyes of the West and its allies) the incumbent president. Therequiembellishere (talk) 05:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not really a war: I only meant "edit war" as a term of art. To your points: Abbas doesn't still execute his powers over half the country (I know the West Bank looks bigger than Gaza on the map, but it is ~75% under Israeli military control, not Abbas's, so I think saying "half" is more or less a wash). If there was a royal scepter involved or something this would be an easier call -- whoever had it would be the guy in charge -- but this is a legal question and as far as I can tell the Supreme Court is out to lunch here. No surprise -- they are so low key I can't find our article about them. Israel rounded up and arrested a fair portion of the parliament so that body is paralyzed as well. But in the meantime, I don't believe Wikipedia should coddle dictators as a general rule (insomuchas Abbas is only still president because he has dictated it to be so). -- Kendrick7talk 06:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
But he has the recognition. And Duwaik certainly isn't executing any powers at all, but he's still considered president as well. And as much as I agree that dictators are abhorrent, it isn't the our job to say that. The encyclopedia is supposed to just state the facts as unbiased as we can, which comes with a large sense of detachment. Therequiembellishere (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
He doesn't have recognition under the law. I'm not sure how you are defining "powers" and in any case, former Speaker Duwaik's term expires next month anyway -- it's not like parliament is sending him any bills to sign in the meantime. Palestine has no army or navy. I agree that we should not take a POV here, but declaring Abbas as "incumbent" is doing just that. If you want to say that he is the incumbent self-appointed president since 9 January I suppose that's about right. -- Kendrick7talk 06:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that positioning both as incumbents and explaining the situation is NPOV enough. I think we should get other opinions on this, though. Otherwise, someone may come through the page a week or so from now and say that the two of us don't know what we're talking about. And I meant recognition by other governments in that they only deal with Fatah. Although, I'm largely unaware of Hamas' international support base. Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Third party opinion via RfC - Let's try and stick with reality, even if it sucks! Ask most people (except Hamas) who's the head of the PA and they'll say Abbas. I'm guessing he's also the guy who shows up the Arab League, the UN and whatnot. The lead makes it clear about how his term was renewed, the infobox should mark him as incumbent, which for better or worse is true. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Is that enough to close the discussion? Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Abu Mazen[edit]

The article doesn't explain Abbas' monicker. Thanks, Maikel (talk) 11:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

It says in the first line that its a (somestrange word), with a link to a wikipedia page that explains it. Like someone calling himself Father of Our Country. ( Martin | talkcontribs 04:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC))

Holocaust denial[edit]

Holocaust denial doesn't just consist of saying that no Jews at all died. It also includes minimizing the number of people killed. Andjam (talk) 04:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

This comes up probably once or twice a year since 2004 or so. The consensus years ago was not to add the category, because derogatory categories (like "holocaust denier" or "criminal" or "terrorist" or "murderer") should only be added for clear, unequivocal cases, where the vast majority of 3rd-party reliable sources would support inclusion and few to no sources dispute the inclusion. The article itself, of course, can provide a discussion in ways that categories, as black/white entities, can't. As for whether he should be in Category:Historians of the Holocaust, that's a closer call, but as he isn't known as a historian, I'd probably say no; I would reserve that category for full-time historians who are known for their work in the field of Holocaust history, not everyone who has ever written anything on the subject. --Delirium (talk) 05:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Where did this consensus arise? Was it on this talk page, or somewhere else? Andjam (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What does name mean?[edit]

What does "Abu Mazen" mean? This should be added to the article. Badagnani (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

why the gap between 1961-1990? What was he doing for those years?[edit]

Other than the lack of mentioning his holocaust denial (he claimed fewer than 1 million died!), There are 2 shady things about the locked article:

Why is there an obvious gap in abu mazen's biography between the 1960s & 1990's?

Wasn't he involved in the 1972 Munich massacre of Israelis & American David Berger? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.61.218.70 (talk) 07:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

proposal to add facts of Abbas' involvement in Munich massacre[edit]

This is from the Wikipedia page on the 1972 Munich massacre. It should be added to fill the large 3 decade gap in the abbas biography:

Abu Daoud, now in his seventies, writes that funds for Munich were provided by Mahmoud Abbas. Though he claims he didn’t know what the money was being spent for, longtime Fatah official Mahmoud Abbas, aka Abu Mazen, was responsible for the financing of the Munich attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.236.83.144 (talk) 00:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

BLP violations[edit]

WND is not a reliable source and repeatedly reinserting it, while removing information about the incident from an actual reliable source, is not acceptable in a BLP. nableezy - 01:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Other sources currently cited in the article which do not meet the criteria for statement of fact in BLP:
  1. Arutz Sheva/Israel National News:- current citations No.22[9], No.24(dead link).
  2. Memri:- citation No. 21[10]

Dlv999 (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The mandate as expired long ago[edit]

The last date proposed for the next presidential elections (June 28th) is about to pass by without notice... is it correct from now on to call Abass a de facto president? Againme (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The Abductions of Jaweed Al-Ghussein[edit]

Jaweed Al-Ghussein former elected Chairman of the Palestine National Fund (PNF) was kidnapped from Abu Dhabi with the collusion of Mahmoud Abbas and illegally held hostage for 16 months in Gaza. Al Ghussein Minister of Justice Freh Abu Mediane resigned and publicly protested at this illegal incarceration and it was denounced by the late Haider Abdel Shafi as a blatant abuse of power. Al Ghussein had been calling for transparency accountability and rule of law. The case was taken up by the Palestinian commission on Citizens Rights (PCCR) were Attorney General Soranai conceded that there was no legitimate reason for Al-Ghusseins house arrest. The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary detention appointed a Special Rapporteur on torture requested the immediate release of Al-Ghussein and placed him in their highest category Mounting international pressure and the mediation of Canon Andrew White, Special envoy of the middle East to Lord George Carey Archbishop of Canterbury.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/2236709/Jaweed-al-Ghussein.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast http://www.ncfpeace.org/drupal/node/310

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/7B874EAB39CFFE5D85256E6F004B90D3

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/wgad/31-2001.html http://services.parliament.uk/hansard/Lords/ByDate/20091110/mainchamberdebates/contents.html


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=310704&sectioncode=26 Unsigned by: 11:58, May 31, 2011 User:Namiba

Let's update[edit]

Watching his speech at UN beginning, I took a quick look here and can see this article needs updating, among other things... CarolMooreDC 16:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

"I will never allow a single Israeli to live among us on Palestinian land"[edit]

This quote, which has been making the rounds at pro-Israel rallies and all over pro-Israel blogs and websites (albeit in different words depending on the source) is currently sourced to Arutz Sheva a.k.a. Israel National News. A7 is a far-right news agency run by religious West Bank settlers, its target audience being the same. I wouldn't regard A7 as a "reliable source". By contrast, I would regard as reliable anything from Ha'aretz, the Jerusalem Post, Maariv, etc. -- Yedioth Ahronoth is somewhere between the Post and A7 in my view. I've been looking for the original source for this quote for a while. Allegedly, Abbas said something along the lines of the attributed quote in Cairo on July 28 2010, according to the A7 article and to an opinion piece at the Jewish Chronicle, though Caroline Glick, in an op-ed for the Jerusalem Post, has him saying it at an Arab League summit in Qatar on May 28 2011. Geoffrey Alderman, in his Jewish Chronicle column, sources the quote to Wafa, the official PA news agency, but says that Wafa removed it, and I can't find it on the English-language Wafa either. Alderman also claims that he "understand[s] that, in any case, some Arabic newspapers, such as Al-Quds" also quoted Abbas saying something similar, but there is no evidence of this given either. In my opinion, this is looking more and more like a fabricated quote, but my opinion about its authenticity doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it should be in this Wikipedia article. I am concerned about the lack of a reliable source, however. I'd appreciate some help in tracing the claim that Abbas said something to the effect that, in his vision, a Palestinian state should not allow Jews to live in it. If an RS can't be found, I'm inclined to remove the quote from this article. Conversely, if people believe that Arutz Sheva meets the requirements of a "reliable source", then we should discuss that here. BostonFenian (talk) 05:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Netanyahu: Abbas speech on Jerusalem was 'incitement'[edit]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-abbas-speech-on-jerusalem-was-incitement-1.414941?localLinksEnabled=false

Do we have a better source on this? Hcobb (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Abbas' work for Palestinians[edit]

There isn't a single section on this article or on Abbas about his work head of Palestinian Authority for the Palestinians. The only sections about his work as Palestinian leader focus on relations with Israel and foreign relations. Abbas also has to manage a population - his job doesn't just deal with the peace process or foreign relations. I strongly believe we should work together on adding such a section, and otherwise creating articles for the information or adding to existing articles (many articles on these subjects haven't been created yet, which takes time, and some just don't seem to fit in another article or to create one). The section can include:

  • Improvements he made for Palestinians
  • Fatah-Hamas reconcilation (briefly, I believe there is another article on it)
  • Support for Abbas vs Hamas vs Barghouti in the polls
  • Criticism by Palestinians
  • Handling of crises such as financial crisis, fuel crisis
  • Corruption, threats against other Palestinians
  • Prison sentences, law enforcement (such as a recent crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank)
  • Recent anti-Oslo rallies which grew into anti-police brutality and anti-P.A. rallies

Let me know how others feel about this. --Activism1234 22:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Nothing controversial about this, you should feel free to expand on the subject. Be BOLD! I don't have much interest in this article in particular as I've set my sights elsewhere for the time being, but I might lend a hand sometime in the future. Just to note, there should also be a bit about the recent proposal set in the Doha Agreement that Abbas head the proposed technocrat-based government in addition to the presidency until new parliamentary and presidential elections are held. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I'm going to give it some more time to give people a chance to respond, and then I'll start working on it gradually (and anyone else who wants to help). If anyone wants to add more info or items we should include, as Al Ameer did, feel free to do so. What I listed is just a general guideline of what such a section can include. --Activism1234 23:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

BLP violation[edit]

Shrike, that last edit you made is a BLP violation as it distorts what Abbas actually said. The full interview is here (uploaded by the TV station, not a copyvio). The editing that MEMRI performed so blatantly takes what Abbas said out of context that I cannot believe that anybody can, in good faith, claim what was written faithfully represents what he said. Yes, he did say he will not recognize a "Jewish state". He also said "I recognize Israel", and he said that it isnt his business what Israel calls itself and that Netanyahu is free to say what he wishes. I translated the relevant portion of the interview (from around the 7 minute mark to 9:13), and I'll post it when I get home. But that edit should be reverted, and I may do so later tonight. nableezy - 17:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is the translation, without the highly selective editing brought to us by MEMRI:
Mona: But what I know is that Netanyahu's speach at the UN, which came right after your speech, did not have any indication of any hope or even probability for any negotiotion. I also know that you have left right after you finished your speech, and you did not wait for his speech, and you even left New York a few hours after that.

Abbas: I heard the speach

Mona: The whole world has heard it, Abu Mazen [Abbas]. And everything in his speech did not indicate that Israel will fulfill any of its promises to you or to any international agreements that they signed. The man used one expression, and said it openly: "the Jewish state, and I emphasize the Jewish state". He said "we offer peace, and they reject it. 63 years", instead of occupation, he says "63 years of offering peace". He accused everyone, Palestinians and the rest of the world, as being the enemies of peace. And he said that Israel is the only one that seeks peace. This is a speech that does not indicate any hope or indication of negotations.

Abbas (8:10): First, to remove from the table, the story of the Jewish state. The Jewish state was proposed to me only two years ago. And they discussed this with me in every place and every occasion I go to. They ask me, are there Jews or not? They also asked me what is my opinion on the "Jewish state". And I said my opinion, and I am repeating here. I will not accept the idea of a Jewish state, or a state that is Jewish.

Mona: He [Netanyahu] said it twice.

Abbas: This is my opinion, but he can say what he wants to. But I will not accept it. I recognize the state of Israel, and this recognition is based on the mutual exchange between Arafat and Rabin, and God bless both their souls. Other than this, I have nothing to say. I will not accept more than recognizing the state of Israel. And they have to recognize the PLO, the only representative of the Palestinian people. And that is enough. And they say this on more than one occasion, the Palestinian state, and some times they deny it, and some times they acknowledge it.

nableezy - 05:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
The interview was reported by WP:RS so it make it notable if there other translations that WP:RS report you welcome to add it to the article.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
That doesnt, in any way, address the BLP violation of taking a phrase completely out of context to give it a more radical meaning that it actually has. This isnt a game of acronyms prepended by WP:. He said, immediately following the out of context quote you chose to highlight, I recognize the state of Israel. He later says, effectively, that Netanyahu can call it a Jewish state if he wants to, but that he recognizes Israel and that as far as is necessary. He has also said, on other occasions, that it isnt the issue of Israel calling itself a "Jewish state" has nothing to do with him. You cant take out of context quotes to distort a persons stated views. Thats what your edit did. nableezy - 07:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't distort anything I report only what WP:RS report with proper attribution according per WP:NPOV--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I just gave you the translation of, and a link to, the actual interview. Are you really going to say that the snippet quoted adequately expresses his views on the subject? nableezy - 07:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not about your version WP:TRUTH but about verifiability more over his refusal to recognize jewish nature of Israel is well documented [11]--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 08:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I think cases like this are interesting and probably worth taking to BLPN because they seem to be within scope of Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use, Section 4 "Refraining from Certain Activities" which sets out what is not allowed (see here). One of those things is "Engaging in False Statements" i.e. we are obliged to carefully avoid deceiving readers. It's not always clear how to do that. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
But even in Nableezy translation he said that he will not recognize so I don't understand what the problem really?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 09:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I think the issue is that while sources are free to use the half-truth propaganda technique, we are not because we are writing an encyclopedia. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Could you please explain what is the half truth?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 09:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you see the difference between the following 2 pieces of information in terms of the extent of the facts, Abbas' truth, they both contain ?
  • MEMRI - "I will never recognize the Jewishness of the state, or a 'Jewish state.'"
  • nableezy's transcript - "I will not accept the idea of a Jewish state, or a state that is Jewish." + "I recognize the state of Israel, and this recognition is based on the mutual exchange between Arafat and Rabin" + "I will not accept more than recognizing the state of Israel."
One in effect says, "I will not recognize X as an ethnoreligious based state", while the other says "I will not recognize X as an ethnoreligious based state but I do recognize X as a sovereign state as mutually agreed". They are quite different in terms of the information the convey about Abbas' view. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
We can add this to the article and link youtube interview as user translation are allowed too.Then the problem could be solved?
Could you also translate the part about Gilad Shalit? Because the sections have two parts.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 08:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Why should I spend my time on that? That should be removed on the basis that it has nothing to do with his "relations with Israel". nableezy - 16:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Kidnapping Israeli soldiers has nothing to do with "relations with Israel"?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 16:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that Mahmoud Abbas "kidnapped" any soldiers. He said it was a good thing that Hamas captured the soldier, but that doesnt change that armed resistance will not liberate Palestine as the Palestinians do not have the capabilities to compete with Israel in strength of arms. In that section of the interview (and this is from memory, so not word-for-word) he is remarking about how the Palestinian cannot win their freedom with force. He said something like We are always with peaceful, popular resistance. But the armed resistance will not accomplish our goals. I can translate it later, I just dont see the point of spending the time necessary to do that when it shouldnt even be a part of the article. nableezy - 16:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

This should be removed as a relatively straight forward distortion of what Abbas actually said. But there are so many problems with that section that I dont even know where to start. Half of it has nothing to do with his relations with Israel, and the other half is based on sources that dont actually discuss his relations with Israel. Using secondary sources to write an article doesnt just mean finding a newspaper that carried a quote, it means finding sources that discuss what you are writing about. The thought of fixing the problems honestly isnt all that appealing to me, given the rather obvious obstacles that will invariably be thrown up. nableezy - 04:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nableezy, not getting into the actual BLP stuff but the other aspects of "Relations with Israel," stuff like "On 16 January 2006, Abbas said that he would not run for office again at the end of his current term" definitely aren't relevant to the section, and should be moved (not deleted) to another section (either existing or a new one). I don't find those types of edits to be controversial and don't expect they will be (but other types of edits will definitely be controversial). --Activism1234 05:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Clarification: Whether you want to do this or not is up to you, if I get a chance I'd do as much as I can, since stuff like that really is a mess and makes it tough to find what you need in the article. But I can see, just based on how so many edits get talk discussions and back-and-forth arguments, how other types of edits would be considered controversial and objected to. --Activism1234 05:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

How on earth does adding links to places that copy MEMRI's claim make that claim more reliable? It is ridiculous. Nableezy's case that this is BLP violation is watertight. And this is yet another reason why MEMRI should not be treated as a reliable source. What Abbas said is exactly the same thing as he has been saying for several years, for example here. Deleting the clear distinction between "Jewish State" and "Israel" is the sort of trick MEMRI gets up to, but we have no excuse. Zerotalk 13:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The material was restored on the basis that MEMRI is an RS which misses the point. I removed it again. It can stay out until BLP concerns are addressed properly. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of which, editors are reminded of WP:BLP#Restoring deleted content: When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. nableezy - 19:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Would you accept in that he willing to "recognize Israel but not the its Jewish character" based on Haaretz source--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
No, because that implies that Israel has a "Jewish character". nableezy - 20:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
And he isnt "willing" to recognize Israel, he has recognized Israel. nableezy - 20:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

UN non-member state status for Palestine. Vote expected in November 2012[edit]

I don't see this 2012 United Nations info linked below discussed in the article. Nor do I see the 2011 efforts by Abbas at the UN to get full membership discussed in the article. See: Palestine 194.

See:

Edit request on 27 April 2013[edit]

Since 27 april 2013 he has the honorary citizen by the city of Naples.[1] 95.239.50.207 (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: I don't believe this recognition is notable enough to be included in the article. There are a great many famous people out there who have been made honorary members of organizations, honorary citizens of their hometowns or other cities, etc, etc. All such articles would be quickly overloaded. --ElHef (Meep?) 03:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 September 2013[edit]

President of State of Palestine is not a real position as there is not currently a state of Palestine. I don't think Wiki represents (intentionally) the spread of misleading information. I have made the edit two times and someone has continuously tried to start a debate which is not what the article is for. Avi1231 (talk) 08:21, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Content isn't going to be changed based on what you personally believe is real/unreal/existent/nonexistent. Perhaps you should read the State of Palestine article. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2013[edit]

Formatting "Relations with Israel" and "Relations with foreign leaders" should be their own sections and not a subsection of "Corruption allegations" 98.255.2.193 (talk) 02:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks for spotting that. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:05, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Improve "Relations with Israel" subheading[edit]

I am new to editing wikipedia, and up to now have limited myself to copy-editing, but I was wondering what the procedure is to actively add to articles. One thing I have noticed is that in the "Relations with Israel" sub-heading, there are several one-sentence paragraphs that do not seem to indicate why they are relevant to the overall narrative of Abbas's relationship with Israel. The sentence/paragraph, "On 25 May, Abbas gave Hamas a ten-day deadline to accept the 1967 ceasefire lines," is an especially good example of this. Since I'm not that knowledgable on the subject matter, I'm hesitant to add things myself, but I was wondering if anyone else felt like this needed some clarification and if they would be willing to make these changes. If people think it's a valid addition but don't want to do it themselves, I am happy to do some research and clarify a little.

Michael.holper628 (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.ilmattino.it/napoli/cronaca/napoli_abu_mazen_cittadino_onorario/notizie/273618.shtml