Talk:Main Page/Archive 100

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In the news

Honk if you are tired of seeing the blurb about Paul Wolfowitz on the In the news section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaff (talkcontribs)

Honk if you're tired of people complaining about ITN instead of making suggestions for it. —Cuiviénen 22:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Beep! ffm talk 01:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Honk --mav 01:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Yaahh-ha-ha-ha-hooey!! ShadowHalo 02:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
2007 Ankara bombing and Captured US soldiers in May 2007 have been left unattended on WP:ITN/C for days. Honk if you're tired of admins (e.g. these 4 above) complaining about people complaining about ITN instead of using suggestions posted at WP:ITN/C. -- 13:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the articles still doesn't/barely meets ITN update level. The other clearly doesn't and is also in proseline. Rather then honking at admins, why don't you take the time to work one of the articles up to ITN standard? (I would suggest Ankara since I'm not sure the US soldier body thing is likely to merit sufficient update or for that matter international interest for ITN. It may have met both when the original story was revealed but that's too old now. Basically it missed the boat) Admins are just doing their job and only putting articles on ITN that qualify. It's not their fault editors are too busy honking and not doing any work on the articles which they want in ITN Nil Einne 15:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Honk if you appreciate timely responses and constructive suggestions from admins at WP:ITN/C. -- 04:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately the fact remains that neither of these articles was up to the standard required so there was no loss. If editors don't bother to work on articles once they think they are up to ITN standard then IMHO it's their loss and I don't feel sorry for them if they aren't told early on that in fact the article is not ITN standard. If these articles had been up to ITN standard but hadn't been put on to ITN for several days, then perhaps there is an issue. But if the article is not up to ITN standard (or doesn't meet the international interest component) then IMHO while unfortunate, there's no net loss to wikipedia. Remember ITN is just to highlight articles. If an editor comes here with the goal to get articles on ITN then perhaps it's best if they learn early on that wikipedia is not wikinews and ITN is just to highlight articles not to have all the latest news. N.B. Remember admins only put articles on ITN. Non admins such as me and you are welcome to familiarise themselves with the criteria and comment on whether an article meets the criteria in their opinion Nil Einne 16:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Honk! :) SSBM Pro 01:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Burp. --Howard the Duck 02:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

HONK ON WHEELS, sadly nobody cares--User:Rock2e Talk - Contribs 11:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


There is a spelling error on the Did You Know quote for Lucretia Maria Davidson: it should be 'lengths' not 'length'. Can someone fix this? Algabal 08:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. --Heron 10:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Next time, report errors at #Main page error reports above. -- 13:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


Why dont the IRC:s comply with Macintosh or is this problem occurring with my comp. only? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 20:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, I cannot understand your question. If you are having an issue with Internet Relay Chat, then please ask on a support forum. If you are having issues with the wikipedia irc channel or online client, please post your question on the talk page of that project page. This is for talking about the main page of the wikipedia. ffm talk 15:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish general election

Regarding the following text:

In the Irish general election, Fianna Fáil under Taoiseach Bertie Ahern win the most seats, but their Progressive Democrat coalition partners collapse.

Could this be changed to:

In the Irish general election, Fianna Fáil under Taoiseach Bertie Ahern wins a plurality, but its Progressive Democrat coalition partners collapse.

Reasoning: a plurality is the term used to describe the situation where a party takes the largest share but not the majority of votes. Secondly, Fianna Fáil is a singular noun.--Damac 14:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that collective nouns are treated as plural in Irish English. ShadowHalo 15:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
They sort of are. What's relevant is that the possessive pronoun for Fianna Fail when referring to them as a group of parliamentarians would be "their", not "its". The rules for British English (and thus Irish English) collective nouns are complex. —Cuiviénen 15:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
We try to avoid the word "plurality" as it is not as universally understood as "the most seats". violet/riga (t) 15:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought the consensus was we should use it but with appropriate links? Nil Einne 16:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
FF has been referred to here as "it" on 25 and 26 May 2007.
On 4 May 2007, In the News pointed out that: "The Labour Party performs poorly in local and regional elections in the UK". There are many other examples of parties being treated as singular nouns and I've yet to find one treated as a plural.
Interestingly, in the Fianna Fáil article, the party is referred to in the singular. There might be a tendency to treat collective nouns as plurals in Hiberno-English, but then again, we would never write something like "Bertie Ahern does be holding clinics in Drumcondra of a Saturday afternoon" in an encylopaedia.--Damac 16:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm British (not Irish) and involved in politics, and I would say the plural and singular are equally acceptable here and almost interchangable when referring to political parties (although sometimes one might use one or the other with emphasis to stress unity or individuality). I, personally, prefer to use the plural.
However, the current use of the present simple (as opposed to the the present perfect) isn't really standard usage. It is acceptable in news headlines but wouldn't be in keeping with a formal register that one might expect from an encyclopedia; although, I guess In The News items are news headlines.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 23:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Insofar as ITN is news, the present has been adopted as a universal standard by Wikipedia. The same rules that would normally prefer the use of present perfect for formality apply in American English as well, and as far as I know, in all forms of English. —Cuiviénen 23:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Next time, report errors at #Main page error reports above. ffm talk 15:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


Is it just me, or are other people having a hard time on Bs01? It dosen't accept my password

--Melman the cat 11:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, this page is for the discussion of the wikipedia's Main Page, not just anything. Please ask your question elsewere. ffm talk 15:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


Can i use some pictures from wikimedia commons for my small webside about plants and animals? thank you--Nikolaosp 11:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Images on commons are basically free by the GFDL. "The purpose of this License is to make a manual, textbook, or other functional and useful document "free" in the sense of freedom: to assure everyone the effective freedom to copy and redistribute it, with or without modifying it, either commercially or noncommercially." The full license is at WP:GFDL. --Wafulz 13:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

--Thank you!!----Nikolaosp 15:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Not all images at the Commons are licensed under the GFDL. Make sure that your use of these images is compliant with the licenses. You don't need to do anything to use a public domain image, but for example, anything licensed under {{cc-by-2.0}} should be included with attribution of the author and some recognition that the image is licensed under the CC Attribution 2.0 license. ShadowHalo 00:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Note however that as all commons images should be freely licensed allowing re-use, commercial or non-commercial you should be able to use them, you just have to obey the license. For a website some of the requirements for e.g. GFDL (including full license) which may be a technical hinderance to re-use in some instances of printed material are unlikely to be a problem. P.S. Forgot to mention there is one exception you should know of on the commons. We currently allow pictures e.g. screenshots on the commons which are otherwise freely licensed but with one of more of the wikimedia logos. As the wikimedia logos are not freely licensed, these images are similarly not freely licensed. This is unlikely to be an issue for plants and animals though) Nil Einne 03:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The current DYK picture... of a bird of prey yet the DYK fact refers explicitly to a waterbird. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I too added the comment on the error report page. Surprised that there has not been a response yet for the main page ! Shyamal 06:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed it to a bird feather since I am not sure of these things. But feel free to get a more appropriate pic. Blnguyen (cranky admin anniversary) 06:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a good fix. Thanks. Shyamal 07:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Religious" Public Relations?

What is the point of the word "religious" in the DYK item on the Discovery Institute's PR campaigns? Are they aiming their message primarily at churches? Do they appeal to any scripture or other religious authority in their statements? The article being cited says nothing about any such religious component to the PR, so what is the justification for calling it "religious public relations"? Even if you think ID is religious at its core, and that anything DI does is thus ipso facto religious, the word "religious" is still inappropriate here as it would be redundant. Though DI's activities are highly problematic in my opinion, NPOV should dictate that we avoid slapping labels on it that it rejects. The word should be removed per NPOV. --Tisco 14:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

While they are undoubtedly a religion based organisation, I agree that the word doesn't sit right in that place. (Meanwhile "make a positive vision of the future practical." how is that a clear mission statement? *boggles* Sorry I've been writing vision documentation today...) --Monotonehell 15:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This is more likely to be fixed quickly if put in WP:ERRORS. I have now deleted the offending adjective. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Auto Focus on Search Text Box?

What would it take to get this on the main page? For those who don't know what I am talking about, I would like to see something where when the main page loads, if you start typing, it automatically goes into the search box... Anyone? 15:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

But then you wouldn't be able to scroll down to the rest of the page. That's obviously not a problem at, but with a page this long users expect to be able to scroll down. --Maxamegalon2000 16:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Yup, this has been proposed before, and it was not done due to the scrolling problem. --- RockMFR 16:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Good point... I never really pay too much attention to the main page (guess I should), so I never considered that... Nevermind then. :) 17:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
For those who are thinking of testing it like me, note you can scroll with the mouse wheel but not the keyboard Nil Einne 03:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Cna someone device a shortcut key for this and place after the text "search"? Like what we do with "My watchlist" and "My contributions"? --Howard the Duck 14:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read this. ffm talk 15:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I use the auto-search mode of Mozilla-Firefox where I 'type to find links'. I would not like it if I am typing and instead of searching it starts going in the search box. It is okay if type goes directly to fill forms (like search-box) in websites like google or yahoomail but it will not be a good idea to have this feature in wikipedia. 06:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is one of the arguments that has been put forward before. Again, read this. ffm talk 13:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Red bias

A red background on the Simeon I seal image, the red Golden Gate Bridge, a red keffiyeh, and a red flag on the Cutty Sark - only one image escapes the hue. What are we pushing today? Communism? The Labour party? The Red Sox? violet/riga (t) 09:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

No, the colour red. --Heron 09:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I vote that we're promoting Wales since red is the national color. ShadowHalo 10:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
What's black and white and red all over? --3M163//Complete Geek 12:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
An embarrassed zebra. Unfortunately, the newspaper punchline depends on homophony and does not work in print.  :-) Nricardo 15:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
You gotta be kidding! --Smokizzy Review Me! (Please!) 16:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
An embarresed zebra? I was always told it was a nun who was shot... to each man his own. Mattbash 00:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Forget about red - there are current three items about English ships! - BanyanTree 23:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Cutty Sark, Black Swan Project - what's the third? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 01:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Champions league

Surely if the F.A. cup is featured then the champions league should be too as it is a far bigger tournament User talk:Plokt, 21:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

cheers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plokt (talkcontribs) 21:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Granted, the Champs League is from a wider pool of quality clubs, but as far as history goes, I believe the FA Cup to be the oldest football/soccer tournament in the world, isn't it? I think that's the reason why it gets so much coverage. Of course, no one outside of the UK would have cared that Watford was playing in the FA Cup semis. You'd never see a club being relegated from their domestic league playing in the Champions League semis. 00:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)A. Whitham, Los Angeles

That's because the FA Cup has every team in England entered into it, at varying stages, automatically. From Prescot Cables and Croydon Athletic to Manchester United and Chelsea. Whereas the Champions league is just that - a league made up of the highest-finishing teams from the European top divisions. --Dreaded Walrus t c 02:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


First thing on my mind today was to research the meaning of “nirvana” in a spiritual sense. I turned to Wiki and found the page started with “Smells Like Teen Spirit” by Nirvana in the featured article. Is this a sign as being at the crossroad to rock music and the search for “nirvana”? Chailai 11:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you look at Nirvana not Nirvana (band). Cheers Nil Einne 12:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
He knows; it's just serendipitous that Nirvana was on the main page. Zeality 21:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the next search is on how to achieve nirvana in the 21st century. Since the world is so much different than the time when Siddhārtha Gautama was in search for his nirvana. Perhaps, I can peek at Nirvana (the band) while in search for nirvana, the ultimate happiness. Chailai 02:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If by Nirvana you mean the actual Buddhist concept (as opposed to a general concept of happiness), I suggest you talk to some Buddhists to begin you search Nil Einne 11:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to find the “actual” Buddhist concept but have not found any yet. My impression of what I have seen was several of interpretations and side discussions that didn’t quite hit the heart and soul of Buddhism. What I really like to know is when Siddhārtha Gautama discovered the ultimate truth – that was his moment – and somehow that act is related to nirvana. I would like to see some literature that describes this discovery. I have also read “general concept of happiness” written by various individuals. I acknowledge what they were saying, but I don’t feel anything and therefore can neither agree nor disagree – that’s another research. So, if any of you could recommend a book on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Chailai 15:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Taken to user talk page Nil Einne 17:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

syria and bashar

there is a very wrong information in the first page, actually Bashar al asad is not the only cadidate because they system of electing presidents is not dependant on more than one cadidate. there is the so called (poll on choosing the president) where they people agree on the president or not .. and if the poll is less 50% , a new presidential candidate is chosen by the assembly

The questionable phrase was removed during the last edit to "In the news". Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Franchitti's Nationality

Concerning Dario Franchitti's reference to being a Scot, can I please request that it is changed to British or Brit as per the dicussion on WikiProject Motorsport. --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 08:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia = the new MEMRI

The Malaysian Federal Court rejects an appeal by Christian convert Lina Joy to have the word "Islam" removed from her identity card.

is this really "news" or just an attack on islam? why is this singled out and put on the frontpage? have you heard this make a frontpage story in any other news media?

wikipedia didn't have any new news to put on frontpage so they decided to publish one attacking islam.

this is disgusting, be fair and don't single out particular religion

Oh, grow up. You want different news, you write different news and submit it to ITN. As long as that isn't factually inaccurate there is no reason for them to suppress the information just to satisfy the griping whims of little children who cry when they are accused of being bad. 17:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually items on ITN need to meet several criteria, not just be factually accurate. However this discussion should take place in the ITN discussion page, not here Nil Einne 19:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
How is that attacking Islam? If the story itself is an attack on anything, it's an attack on the Malaysian Federal Court (and I wouldn't really call it an attack). -- tariqabjotu 00:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

How do you get the Main Page on a Userpage?

'nuff said.c'mon, we've fished a good one.Kfc1864Cuba Libre! 08:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Type {{Main Page}}. ffm talk 12:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it would be {{:Main Page}}, {{Main Page}} would transclude Template:Main Page. Prodego talk 01:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


Does anyone think there should be a word of the day? If there was one i can't remember it being there. Or maybe someones come up with this idea before. Just an idea..Wiki.user 18:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

This being an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, it would be somewhat out of place. Perhaps you were thinking of here? – Gurch 18:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


It would be nice if there'd be a clock table on the main page to display diffirent timezones around the world. like London Copenhagen Helsinki Moscow etc. Peace keeper II 07:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Creating something like the world clock and linking to it from the main page sounds worthwhile. El_C 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
it could be used to file that white space between the Welcome and the subject links. Mbisanz 05:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
A big issue is caching - what happens when that clock is inaccurate? How would caching affect such a clock for logged-out users? Ral315 » 06:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the logging in/out would be an issue, since the page content doesn't to my knowledge change based on in/out status. Caching is a problem to some degree, one answer would be an applet of some sort that kept the time constantly moving (like this, but that could burden the page with extra code, another idea might be an automatic re-loader on the main page (like this Or we could treat it like this talk page and just give readers a purge link.Mbisanz 06:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
What white space? We don't all have large windows or displays. Bazza 12:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Probably the white space between "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." and the links to the portals. We don't need large windows or displays to get that. BTW, I like this white space. It makes "Welcome to Wikipedia..." stand out. -- 12:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a pretty high res monitor, but I rarely browse full screen. Especially not reference sites like Wikipedia. I usually wind up with something like this: [1] Also, I've got a tablet PC that I often browse the web on that's 768x1024, which isn't much bigger than that screenshot. 13:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not browse full screen? -- 13:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Try Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (PDA version) on your Tablet PC. Maybe easier to read? -- 13:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Uh, well, for a couple of reasons. One is that since I'm often using wikipedia as a reference I'm probably doing something in one of the other gazillion windows I have open and I like looking back and forth. (Sure, I'm a little disorganized.) The other main reason is more aesthetic; with my large widescreen monitor, lines of text get very long. I prefer text in vertical columns. Anyway, my point is just that right now Wikipedia is very forgiving of the shape and size of your browser window, and that's a quality I value. Just my two cents. 13:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoops, I hadn't thought about the sizing issue. Looking at your "no_whitespace image, I see there is empty space under the accounting sign in/create account text where a time-zone selector drop-down. Would everyone have that space "free" regardless of window size?Mbisanz 23:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
What time zone would the clock show? S. Randall 13:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Either all zones, a zone chooser, or UTC, probably. ffm talk 15:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Could the clock be tied to the user that's logged in? For example, I could tell Wiki that I'm in the central time zone of the US and the clock would show 10:02 am. If my brother were logged in in Cali, the clock on his page would show 8:02 am. Trigam41 15:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There's not enough room to show all time zones, there's no point in showing just the user's local time as most computer desktops have a clock showing already. What's left? UTC? Is there any point in having that on the Main Page? It's important here in talk, and it's at the top of this page. I don't see it adding any value on the main page. --Monotonehell 01:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I'm pretty sure it's (UTC on the main page) been proposed before and I would argue it's more important there then here. Since the main page works on UTC, it would help people to understand why OTD is June 1st if it's no longer June 1st for them anymore or if it's not June 1st yet. It will also help people understand when TFA & TFP are going to change Nil Einne 11:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want the time to show up, there's code here for your monobook.js that will display the clock somewhere in the bar with your username and the log out option. timrem 03:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

What does UTC even stand for, and what part of the world does it contain? Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 18:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you have a huge sig! It stands for Coordinated Universal Time. ffm talk 18:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliment. Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 20:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that was so much a compliment... perhaps read Wikipedia:Signatures#Customizing_your_signature PseudoEdit (yak) (track) 21:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but it struck me as a compliment. Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 22:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
We all want nice signatures but that thing measures the odd 9 lines. Particularly I would refer to this, which places the general guideline at about 2 or 3 lines. Long signatures can make all sorts of problems. I would consider trimming it down some. DoomsDay349 22:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Random Articles

Why do I see stub like articles most of the times when I open a 'Random article'? It's impossible to get a featured article!! 08:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, less than one in a thousand articles are featured. ShadowHalo 09:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If you want a random featured article, go to Wikipedia:Featured content - it selects one of each type of featured content automatically. Laïka 12:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Why? We are hoping someone like you may help expand the stubs. Keep clicking. You'll find something you can edit soon. -- 13:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If you want featured articles, edit them!Tourskin 19:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia should have a link that says "Random featured article". Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 18:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

File a feature request. ffm talk 18:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Are you talking to me or someone else? Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 20:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ask and ye shall recieve -> Random featured article Raul654 20:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

He also put that on my talk page. :) Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 20:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Too many close-ups?

I notice that sometimes we've been cropping things a little close on the MainPage thumbnails. Especially if someone isn't terribly recognizable or having a remarkable expression on their face, I think we would be better served by medium shots which can show some character in the position of the body, and especially for historical figures, in the clothing.--Pharos 04:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about historical figures but isn't the point of pictures especially for ITN to show what someone looks like? So that people who've seen them before would recognise them and people who haven't may get an idea of what they look like and may recognise them in the future. A picture which doesn't show what someone looks like strikes me as a filler which I know at least one editor is strongly opposed to. Given our requirements, it's not uncommon that the photos aren't particularly good when showing a closeup of the face but still, I think it's better then nothing most of the time.Also, I would wonder whether you can really say someone isn't recognisable. Most people are probably recognisable if you've seen them enough. Even identical twins can often be differentiated by people who've seen them enough. Nil Einne 17:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
My point is that, especially for images of historical personages, a close-up doesn't do them justice, not in the context of the MainPage anyway. A close-up of the face of an obscure 18th century Swedish general will not look very interesting, but a medium shot that shows part of his uniform will give more of a flavor to his historical context. In short, I think that that facial recognizability as individuals (especially for fairly obscure persons, who very few people could recognize at a glance anyway), should be balanced against recognizability as 'types', which has more visual flair.--Pharos 20:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
For historical figures perhaps. But for modern people, I find the idea of deciding recognisability highly questionable and also dispute that it is fair to put them into 'types'. I mean I know we've had comments here from people who think an African in somewhat traditional costume looks like an Afghani but I don't think it's something we should be encouraging. Nil Einne 13:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

ITN Pics

Sorry to start this again, but I am really fed up of seeing Bertie Ahern on the ITN section for last 3-4 days. Can't we change the ITN pictures more often? Can't we have pictures related to each of the news item every day? 13:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, please help us and suggest a new picture that has a suitable licence (i.e. a free content licence) to replace it with. If such a picture could be found, it would have been changed already. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Time to flip the Bertie Ahern pic?

The Irish Election article is the last item on the In the News list, so might it not be time to flip it out and replace it with something else? Possibly the Alan Johnston photo? Cheers, Thewinchester (talk) 17:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The image on Alan Johnston is used under fair use, so that's not an option. Frankly, at this point I'd just start hoping the next item added has a free image available.--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 18:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
He's just pulling a Nancy Pelosi. The Placebo Effect 18:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Huh? ffm talk 18:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm assuming the comment was in reference to the period of time a little while back when the ITN image remained a shot of Nancy Pelosi for quite a while and elicited many complaints.--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 18:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to disappoint you Placebo and ors, but your mention is the first i've heard of any issues regarding Pelosi so a little AGF wouldn't be out of the question on my original comments. Heck, it's first time ever i've seen fit to comment on main page talk. Thewinchester (talk) 18:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Err...I'm pretty sure he meant Bertie Ahern was "pulling a Nancy Pelosi" by remaining on the page for ages, not that you were.--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 18:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please 'flip' Bertie Bswee 19:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
See this The Placebo Effect 22:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a cropped picture of the May 2007 RCTV protests? -- 21:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Pls put in a caption, as done on TFA now, to explain what is shown in the ITN pic. -- 04:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The caption has been removed from TFA. [2] Pity. I thought that was a good idea and should be implemented to the other pics on the main page. -- 19:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

JFK planned bombing

I was going to but the page hasn't been edited at all today. Just wanted to make sure, instead of putting it there, and having someone respond when it's already not in the news anymore. --R ParlateContribs@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 19:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Before you waste time posting on WP:ITN/C right now, just so you know, there has not been a seperate, well-written article here on Wikipedia that I am aware of about this incident, and John F. Kennedy International Airport only has one sentence about it. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 19:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps someone should start 2007 John F. Kennedy International Airport attack plot, a seperate, well-written article here on Wikipedia about this incident, as done with 2007 Fort Dix attack plot last month. -- 04:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


No new articles between 11.37 and 12.52 (UTC) today. Server problems? Camptown 13:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

see here--Melburnian 13:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Loss of session data

Is it my computer or is something making edits to an article that much more of a pain?Tourskin 15:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Please file a bug report. ffm talk 18:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Select "Remember me" when you log in, and make sure your browser has cookies enabled – Gurch 12:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Victoria train crash

Surely the train crash today should make the in the news, im all the other side of the world in Ireland so perhaps some-one a bit closer could write it up.plokt 16:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

See WP:ITN/C & Wikinews. -- 16:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

cheersplokt 21:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


Does anybody know which was the 1,800,000th article? --Camptown 18:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You never know since all these articles being made may be deleted. And why does everyone want to know what the article was? AxG @ talk 19:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Morbid curiosity. Ouro (blah blah) 12:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
In the same line of thinking, does anybody know which was the 1,532,774th article? I just happen to like that number. Numero4 14:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, mankind finds numbers that start a new set interesting. Where else 1,532,774 is not a new number, 1,800,000 starts the next 800th thousandth article in the second set of million. Just like reaching 100 starts another set of hundred, which is 200, so then 1,800,000 marks the beginning of the set of articles numbered from 1,800,000 to 1,899,999. When we reach 1,900,000, many will look forward to the articles numbered from 1,900,000 to 1,999,999. I hope that concludes that.In short, even clean numbers are fun to look at. Tourskin 20:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't mean to be a dick or anything, but 1,532,774 sets a new set in the ones place. With it I looked forward to article 1,532,775. And 1,532,774 is even, and I haven't seen it doing any drugs lately so I'll assume it's clean. RageGarden 04:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, 1,800,000 ends a set of articles from 1,700,001 to 1,800,000, in the same way that 2000 was technically the last year of the 20th century rather than the first year of the 21st. There was no year 0 or article 0. *Dan T.* 23:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
You guys are freaky. --Ouro (blah blah) 10:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok well I'm not gonna say your wrong and I am right. But which way is north? Which way is south? From whos perspective? Why is it that solar system is drawn in one particulary way? The answer to all these questions are standardized ones. My point above is that numbers that are whole and easily divisible such as 1,800,000,000 are "clean numbers", coz you cando all sorts of calculations on them. Yes, we measure using ones, as you craftly pointed out. We also measure using tens, hundreds, thousands and millions. Thats why we look forward to articles which take the 1st place, tenth place, hundredth place, thousandth place, millionth place. The number 1,532,774 is the 1.532774 millionth article. That is more of an "ugly" number (ugly being that its not easily divisible nor whole) than 1.8 (as in 1.8 millionth article) coz 1.8 is an easier number to work with. Why do you think they make money in 100, or ten or 5 bills instead of 1.5344 bills? Coz clean numbers are easier to work with, and easier to relate to.
If you want "clean" numbers, then why not find out what the 2,097,152nd article is? It is a factor of two and binary is far "cleaner" than decimal. Or better yet, let's find the 1,759,943rd article, since that's a prime number. Why does he want to know? He's curious. Quit trying to explain why 1,800,000 is a nice number (to you), or what he needs with this information, and answer the question. Oh, and in case you care, 1,532,774 is by all means a whole number (hopefully you know what that means). ♠ Åpeirophobia ♠ 06:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"Speed of Speak". Speak the number one million five hundred and thirty two thousand seven hundred seventy four. At the same time, have your friend say one point eight million. See who finishes speaking first. Trigam41 15:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

North and South are actually standard wherever you go, because the magnetic field doesn't just change around as you move around the globe.

Yes it does: see magnetic north pole. It actually moves slightly more or less constantly, and there's the concept of magnetic reversals as well. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
but the general direction is the same.
I would guess that depends on how far away from the magnetic north pole you were when you started measuring.

It's only because you have ten fingers that you have bias towards these numbers! What if you had eleven ala the famous Dr. Seuss? 02:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Then the standard would change. We have a counting system that is in base 10. I have no bias to ten, all of teh scientific and mathematical community prefer tens. Thats why we use Logarithms in Mathematics most commonly in base 10 or natural base of e. Look here people, I am not saying you are all wrong and I am right. Everything is relative, everything has been standardized. All dimensions in Physics require an origin. Numbers have an origin, its zero thats we say 1 which means a single unit away from the origin. Don't bother with pointless arguments. Why are you being insulting ♠ Åpeirophobia ♠? Of course I know what whole numbers mean. I took A level Maths and Further Mathematics and got an A grade. I have taken two semesters of Calculus in the United States, I am well accomplished in Mathematics. You seem to lack the understanding of how multiples of 10 in numbers like 1,800,000 are cleaner because they are easier to deal with. Your ridiculous number of 1,532,774 generates a remainder when trying to divide it into tens. Do you know what that means?Tourskin 19:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because a number is divisble by ten doesn't mean it's easier to work with. I can divide 10 into factors of 5 and 2 (and 10 and 1 I guess), but I can divide 12 by 6,4,3,2. A number being divisible by ten doesn't mean it's more useful. --YbborTalk 21:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, 12 and its multiples are much easier numbers to work with. For similar reasons, we do not buy eggs by the kilogram (rather, we count by the number of eggs), or firewood for that matter (rather, by volume). —Centrxtalk • 22:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
My intent is not to insult, I'm just pointing out the flaw in arbitrarily claiming that 1,800,000 is a "clean" number. Yes, it's perspective. 1,800,000's nice because it's divisible by 10, but 2,097,152 can easily be written as 2^21, whereas 1,800,000 would be 2^6 x 3^2 x 5^5, making it much uglier to work with sometimes. If you're working with calculus, anything that's a multiple of e is far simpler (in fact, in higher levels of math, logarithms of base 10 are almost never used and the natural logarithm is commonly written as just "log"), and multiples of pi are heaven when exercising your trigonometry muscles. My point with the prime number was that it could be just as interesting to someone as the 1,800,000th article. The Pengrowth Saddledome in Calgary holds 19,289 people during a Flames game, which just so happens to be a prime number. I'm sure someone should find that interesting. And I tore at you for the "whole number" thing because it annoys me when people attempt to explain mathematical concepts and apply their terminology wrong. ♠ Åpeirophobia ♠ 23:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I am glad we have reached an understanding then. My final point is that when counting articles, its easier to work with tens. Yes, in calculus you heavily rely on Natural logarithms rather than the artificial base 10 logarithims and pie radians are heaven for trig. There are other pretty numbers too like 12 and 2^21 isn't too bad a number either. My point earlier got a little corrupted as I argued forward. 1,800,000 is an easy number to work with certainly, relative to say working with a number that was 3.945734848. There are certainly easier numbers. Also, why do we have "Who wants to be a millionare as opposed to who wants to be an e^15 aire?" That was the point I was just trying to explain why some people wanted to know what the 1,800,000th article was. There wasn't an argument about it when wikipedia reached 1,500,000 articles not too long ago.Tourskin 00:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way I meant 1.8 million was a whole number.Tourskin 23:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So does all of that discussion mean that nobody knows what the 1,800,000th article is? And also, I think that we should wait to continue this discussion when Wikipedia reaches 2 million articles and then see how easy that is to work with. Or maybe even 10 million, another new era. Or we should wait even longer until it reaches 100 million articles, if it ever happens. (I like "perfect" numbers that have only one digit and the rest are all 0's.) Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 18:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

A perfect number is something entirely different than what you said. Oh, long sig. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

This is such a fun discussion and yet we did not answer the original question. I guess you can track what article no. 1,800,000 not what article reached that number first but what that article currently is.Tourskin 00:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Technically speaking, You could randomly pick any article and say it was article 180000 and you would be correct, as to which one reached it first, we'll never know Wardhog 20:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A. What really is a perfect number?
B. When I said "perfect", I meant numbers that only have 1 unique digit, like 10,000,000 and not 1,800,000.
C. I figured out what the first article is! The Main Page! I know it doesn't help, but I just wanted to say something new!
D. I like making things colorful. Please ignore the fact that the D has no weird color. Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 20:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You fail at trying to be funny... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 21:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be funny, Mr. No-Signature. I only said I like making things colorful. Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 22:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
yeah, but your terminology is completely wrong. A perfect number is a number whose factors add up to the number. Eg. 6 has factors 1,2,and 3, which add up to 6. If you read the article it would make sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RageGarden (talkcontribs) 01:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What does this chat have to do with the main page? -- 17:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A. Good point,
B. I don't care about what a "perfect" number really is. I'm just trying to make a point that I like numbers that have 1 unique digit with the rest 0's, no matter what they are called.
C. I'm not going to read the article because I don't care.
D. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. I hate it when people don't sign. It's so anonymous. Powerfulmind pleasetalktome! lookatallofmyedits! 19:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Please remember that this talkpage is intended for discussions on topics related to the main page only. I hate it when people go off topic. It's so annoying. -- 04:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Good point, This gave me a great idea. Let's create an article called For Talk Only and use it just for the talk page. Powerfulmind please talk to me! look at all of my edits! 11:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Go to WP:VP. It's not a chatroom, though. -- 13:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I would, but that means moving the entire chat there. And I don't want to do that. The chat can go anywhere, but it's best to keep it here so people can access it more easily than the Village Pump. And another thing. Why is it that every unlogged in user's IP address starts with 74? Powerfulmind please talk to me! look at all of my edits! 20:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It is a US IP block, IIRC. Some start with 64, but most start with 74. ffm talk 21:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Front page libelous!

"1968 - Sirhan Sirhan mortally shot U.S. Senator Robert F. Kennedy inside the kitchen pantry of The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles."

There is zero proof that it was Sirhan or Sirhan was alone. All independent (non-US-or-state-govt conducted) investigations conducted so far uniformly found that RFK's personal bodyguard was the only person who had the means and position to conduct the assasination, considering the type of handgun and angle of the shots. The bodyguard owned an exact same type and caliber weapon, which he later claimed to have lost or sold, but did not provide any proof, slip or lead. The famous door panel with bullet holes did disappear, etc. Very fishy indeed!

All in all, Wikipedia is the US gov't slave dog if it says on front page that Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy. In fairness the phrase "accused of" or controversially convicted" should be included in the text.

But of course since Sirhan is an arab, he is a lower being and cannot expect fair treatment from Wikipedia's overwhelming WASP posse! 09:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Howard the Duck 11:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Does Britannica have to put up with this? [3] Freshacconci 12:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
If Britannica articles had wiki-style "Talk" pages or blog-style "Comments" sections, they certainly would. (Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already considered such a "comment on this article" feature and rejected it for that reason) – Gurch 12:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
"Overwhelmingly WASP posse"? Well, at least the phrasing of these comments stays fresh.
On a more serious note, to the topic starter: I think you'll find you get better results with a calm listing of objections, rather than hysterical ranting and accusations, which are usually just ignored.--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 14:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The current frontpage entry reads: "1968 - Sirhan Sirhan mortally shot U.S. Senator Robert F. Kennedy inside the kitchen pantry of The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles."
I propose the entry should be rephrased as such: "1968 - U.S. Senator Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated inside the kitchen pantry of Ambassador Hotel, Los Angeles. Sirhan Sirhan was later convicted for the murder."
This way everybody could be happy and NPOV, as all info would still be mentioned, but the presentation would not carry the implied statement of Sirhan actually murdering RFK, just that he was convicted. As you know, many people are still convicted every year for capital crimes they did not commit and some guilty as sin do get away with most heinous murders, e.g. O. J. Simpson.
Oh and by the way it is a matter of fact that most Wikipedia contributors are white anglosaxons from USA and Britain, so no arabs can hope to get equal treatment here, because the arrogantly so-called "rest of the world" has fewer english speaking netizens than USA and UK. 14:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW, the front page also mentions that on this day in 47, George Marshall gave a speech that became the basis of the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany and Japan following WWII. This should be re-written as "Following WWII, Germany and Japan were rebuilt. In 1947, George Marshall gave a speech suggesting that this was a good idea, and coincidentally, some of the rebuilding money was called "the Marshall plan" but it may or may not have been related to George Marshall". That should satisfy the NPOV needs of the "I didn't go to high school" crowd, ensuring equality for all wikipedia users, not just the ones with educations. - CHAIRBOY () 14:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
How much you wanna bet Raul is going to give you the Brick of Common Sense for that brilliant reply? Oh, wait! He has :) Well said, and congrats for earning the brick. — Deckiller 21:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
How do you know that most Wikipedia contributors are white anglosaxons from USA and Britain? And even if that's the case, it's not surprising because this is just the English language Wikipedia, not the Wikipedia as you seem to think. I expect if you go to tr:, fa:, ar:, he:, etc you'll find different general views and ways of putting things to those you seem not to like here. Bazza 15:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Suggestions to tweak the text on the main page should be posted at #Main page error reports above. -- 16:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
So the fact that Sirhan Sirhan was holding the gun and had to have his finger broken to get it out of his grasp didn't mean anything? Corvus cornix 22:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here you can look at the photo of the official memorial plaque affixed to the Texas Scoolbook Warehouse. You will note the word "allegedly shot" in front of Oswald's name. Therefore even autorities feel the need to present a balanced view even on a memorial plaque. Both Kennedy assassinations are very mysterious and thus deserve caution. Why do you think Wikipedia is smarter than government. Here is the photo, well visible:
It should also be noted that Sirhan's revolver did not have as many chambers as the number of shots recorded. Therefore he was either not alone or he was merely firing blanks to divert attention and somebody else did the actual killing. The Discovery Channel investigated and found RFK's personal bodyguard killed the attorney general from behind.
Thirdly, is not the anglosaxon wikipedia. It is the GLOBAL english language wikipedia, because english is one of the seven recognized world languages and therefore should not carry WASP-leaning views, just because there are more atlantic people here than "rest-of-the-world". The british-american wikipedia is logically at, contribute white man's burden influenced views there. The should present all races with equal opportunity, this is where treatment of Sirhan Sirhan, an arab, on the front page is clearly a violation - since he was not given the benefit of "allegedly" or "controversially" where Oswald, a white caucasian was, as evidenced by the above photo'ed official plaque. 11:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I tried the link you gave - [4] - but it doesn't work. I don't much care for your racist attitude; nor your assumption that I or any of the other contributors above are white, American or British, or have an Anglosaxon heritage. Bazza 12:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

wow. just wow. ` 18:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This guy is a troll writ large. Based on his history[5] he goes from page to page spewing hate for no apparent reason. Check out this lovely racist chestnut, it's real classy. [6] How has this guy not gotten the boot yet? BullzeyeComplaint Dept./Contribs) 22:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

National Slayer Day

That's tomorrow, June 6th. Will wikipedia mention it on its main page? 22:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Nope. To American-centric, Not a recongnized holiday, Run by fans, and not in the Slayer article. And, where would it go? WP:OTD? ffm talk 00:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I was going to ask WTF National Slayer Day is but from the sound of things I'm glad not to know. Anyway Slayer is a FA which has not yet been TFA and a request was put in to feature it today but it was not featured for whatever reason (perhaps we've had too many pop culture stuff of late). You could wait until next year and ask for it again. In any case, we still won't mention National Slayer Day because it doesn't appear to be prominent enough that it should be mentioned in the Slayer summary Nil Einne 05:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


ITN has too much old news and needs pruning. DYK has too many new items and wants more space. Let's put them both on the right side. ITN can stay short and leave lots of space for DYK. This way, we'll have less problem balancing the two sides on the main page. OTD used to be beneath TFA, anyways. -- 04:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Featured Portal

Would it be possible to put a featured portal of the month on the main page? It wouldn't have to contain any text from the portal...just a link in the upper right where the main portals are listed would suffice. I think the formatting could work, and it would be pretty unobtrusive, yet simultaneously a good motivator for bringing portals up to featured status. 04:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Main Page/Archive 98#Portals on the mainpage. -- 04:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Hm. Would it be too horrible to transclude a featured portal below the current Main Page? -- mav 14:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

about excel

you have got a wide variety of info but you need to include more on offoce software and other programs —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 01:54, 7 June 2007

Hi, generally you should make comments about an article on its own discussion page, not here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. If you'd like to see more information why not consider adding it yourself? --Monotonehell 02:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
We have a very good, in fact a featured article all about Excel. ;) —Dark•Shikari[T] 03:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually we already generally cover software in a great amount of detail and our main failing is probably more in areas like history, anthropology, country info etc of the developing world, particularly African and the non English speaking developing world... I've also noticed our coverage of some areas of biology appears fairly slim at this is probably true for most of the sciences Nil Einne 05:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
And some of the science/math articles that do exist are inaccessible to layfolk due to a lack of a simple introduction paragraph. --Monotonehell 14:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually this probably applies to a lot of computer related articles as well except most of us are too geeky to notice :-P Nil Einne 17:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
LOL yes. --Monotonehell 17:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Alzheimer Dieses

What is Process in Alzheimer Dieses memory failure? As I understand memory process information in 3 stages i.e encode, recode and retrieve. Is there any information ?

Mukund Mehta 20:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)Mukund Mehta

Try reading the Alzheimer's disease article. If that doesn't help, try the reference desk (Wikipedia:Reference Desk/Science) Nil Einne 20:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


9 DYK's is a bit too much. Sometimes theres barely more than 5. Why not "save them" and say put about 6 or why not put up a moving average number of DYK's? Tourskin 01:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Per day, I mean.

DYKs are chosen to balance the two sides of the Main Page. More are added when there's a short FA blurb. So long as there are others to choose for the next update, it doesn't really matter. GeeJo (t)(c) • 02:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, both ITN & OTD are one over their respective limit to counterbalance the two sides of the Main Page while DYK is excessively long. This is pushing POTD too far down. Please stick to the limits. -- 04:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be the same size limit on all four main page boxes? So that no matter what resolution people view it in, they always balance. Since this main page balance thing is a chimera depending on end users' setups. Something like this guide on the project page to help editors check for size?:

Entire section should fit inside red box

From Wikipedia's new and recently improved content:

Homage to Cézanne

With all the technicalities worked out properly of course. --Monotonehell 09:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. I have tried viewing the Main Page using three different browsers on three different computers - and every way the page looks very balanced today. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Main Page looks very balanced today because other sections compensated by being longer than what's prescribed in their respective guidelines. DYK is getting longer and longer, forcing ITN & OTD to be longer and longer to maintain balance. It's worse when TFA happens to be long that day, too. POTD gets shoved further down. Please stay within the limits. -- 16:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Now if you'll replace the ever-lengthening ITN, DYK and OTD with a featured list, it'll give visitors more bang for their buck. --Howard the Duck 03:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Not again! Advocacy for featured lists, HTD...psshhhhhhhhh. 02:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


No mention of the Anaheim Ducks winning the Stanley Cup? It's a major sporting event, especailly in Canada and I remember when other league's championships were decided they had something about them on it. -- 18:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please make a request. ffm talk 19:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It has been posted but after a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time sitting on the WP:ITN/C page. --Howard the Duck' 03:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Donations sentence problem

The "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!" is overlaping with the main banner a slight bit. Its not a bad problem but it would be nice if somebody fixed it :) -ĬŴΣĐĝё 22:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Main Page/Archive 96#Timestamp overlap. -- 05:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Atheism picture

Anyone find it odd that the illustration comes from the Bible? 13:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Ironic, but still illustrative of the word in original Greek usage. It's not an easy subject to have an image for. —Cuiviénen 14:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Not that the blurb requires an illustration, since the article concerns a difficult-to-photograph philosophical notion. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 15:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes, don't I know... Raul654 17:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that dead horse had it comin'. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 00:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Page color

What code can I use to change the color of my entire user page? Not just a table or something... the whole page. Adriaan90 ( TalkContribs ) ♪♫ 23:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the actual layout of the page is determined on the viewer's side, rendered according to the style (the default is monobook). I don't think it's possible to change the entire page. I don't think you can actually edit the HTML of the entire page, I think you can only edit the source... Sbrools (talk . contribs) 00:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Help:User style should give you a sense of what is possible, while WP:VPT or WP:VPA would be the best place for further questions. - BanyanTree 04:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


Is the Irish general election, 2007 more important than the destruction of Eurasia's only Geyser Valley? It may well be doubted. Give us some air! Never-ending news about elections are inherently boring. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

It's just taken a while to fall off the bottom of the news items. At this stage it's also rather out of date as we've moved on to govt. formation, with only a week and a half left for parties and individuals to agree. zoney talk 14:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
As for the new item you mentioned: relax. It was only propsoed a few hours ago, and ITN isn't updated magically. Patience, grasshopper.--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 14:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
My gripe is with the proliferation of political trivia in ITN, rather than with hot springs. For most people there can be nothing more boring than elections in tiny prosperous democratic countries such as Latvia and Ireland. Imho we should give more coverage to news from other fields of knowledge. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ghirla, then your comments on the issues, concerns, and problems raised on Loosen up the rules would be appreciated. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ghirla, while I agree that more science based items would be beneficial to ITN. I must say that insulting "tiny prosperous democratic countries" isn't going to help the cause. Election news is limited to only National election results, not "political trivia", we don't get into subjective calls on which country is more important than others. What we need rather than name calling, is people getting candidates up to encyclopaedic standard, and then suggesting them on the candidates' page. --Monotonehell 17:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see how "tiny prosperous democratic country" qualifies as "name-calling" or "insult". That the news about elections in such countries are boring is a stern fact of life. I checked the page recommended by Zzyzx11 and found that some folks over there are seriously deluded about the purpose of the Main Page, leaving the ITN section to languish in its current sorry state. I had to leave this page in disgust, so as to let them to "highlight encyclopaedia" as they term it by posting thrilling "international" headlines about elections in Lesoto and Sierra Leone ad infinitum. Case closed. --Ghirla-трёп- 17:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I must apologise to you, I misread your "prosperous" as "preposterous". But the rest of what I said is still valid. A lot of people don't know of the consensus that has developed behind ITN, and the history, events and reasons for the consensus. Every guideline and practise that is upheld has a good reason for its existence. You're appearing very hot-headed and irrational about this by the way. --Monotonehell 18:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I discovered that there are no guidelines along the lines I was expected to follow. Not every practice "upheld" in the project is beneficial. For instance, I was told with an air of utmost authority that ITN is here to "highlight" the quality of encyclopaedia. No it's not. Its purpose is to link our readers to essential pages about ongoing events, however stubby these may be, so that they could be expanded by dint of collaborative effort. It's about collective work rather than about pleasing a group of formalistic, adminitis-infected people who don't give a hoot about what's happening in mainspace. My favorite guideline in Wikipedia states that our encyclopaedia is not consistent, and that's its not really a defect. Consequently, let's stop building Potemkin villages on Main Page. --Ghirla-трёп- 19:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Why do you need extra guidelines to remind you that you need references in encyclopedia articles? -- 13:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that admins in charge of ITN think they should give "mainspace people" enough time to expand a news article, to provide at least dozen references, and to make sure that enough people commented on the nomination, so that it would not be perceived as "controversial". A week may pass before the entry is "promoted"; by that time it is hopelessly stale. In other words, they replicate the DYK model, without understanding the fundamental difference between these templates. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Hang on, I'm not following you. DYK is to highlight new or newly unstubed articles. TFA is to showcase articles that are our best work. OTD is to highlight articles that have date specific events in them. So what does ITN do? --Monotonehell 09:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Traditionally ITN is not specifically new news headlines, but rather highlighting updated articles that pertain to subjects in the news. Hence the section is current, but not necessarily up to date. It's all rather ad-hoc at present, but then, so are most other areas of Wikipedia; given the "rules/guidelines/random mutterings" are ad-hoc. zoney talk 12:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Ad-hoc or no ad-hoc, the incident highlights the absence of ITN guidelines because the people responsible for this project are content to follow their own preconceptions and whims on the subject (claimed to represent "unwritten consensus" or something alone these lines). Of course it's easy to replicate the structure and rules of DYK without bothering to frame guidelines and to refer newbies to "unwritten guidelines" or "consensus" when inspiration strikes. I expect something more productive than constant appellations to "ad hoc", however. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Why would it take a week to write a short paragraph and add references? DYK asks for more. -- 13:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Geyser Valley is more than a short paragraph, yet it is deemed inappropriately short and unreferenced on account of "unwritten guidelines" advocated by Monotonehell and others. --Ghirla-трёп- 13:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"unwritten guidelines" is harsh words and that really alludes to the fact that the article is not in good shape and needs to be improved before it is showcased on the frontpage. Instead of complaining here, the efforts should be put in improving the article. Geyser Valley might have reached ITN by now if you've properly directed your energy. BTW, I support getting this on ITN. Beef up the article! I suggest a map and a free photo of the place before the mudslide. -- 14:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Your question made me understand who you are. Please log in and then we shall talk. It's irritating to see your IP change every two minutes. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
That question was a bad joke I shouldn't have made, and I do not think you understand who I am. Goodbye. -- 14:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
If I had sufficient interest in the subject, it would have been on DYK long ago.[7] I want to make a point that we don't link articles from Main Page to "showcase" something. Only featured stuff appears on Main Page to showcase the project. It is erronenous to "showcase" all other articles as well. As I recall, stubs have been banned from DYK in order to cut the ever increasing flood of nominations, rather than to "showcase" these articles. On the contrary, we bring articles to the attention of a wider audience in order to encourage their expansion and improval. That's the Main Page philosophy in a nutshell. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
When you want to "bring articles to the attention of a wider audience in order to encourage their expansion and improval", and the articles are related to current events, try Portal:Current events.
Is there an article on that "Main Page philosophy in a nutshell"? Original research? Any references? Now, really, goodbye. -- 14:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you're missing the point. One of the reasons for all articles on the mainpage is bring them to highly them to a wider audience for improvement. This is true for TFA as well and it is why we don't protect them. I've never seen anyone make the suggestion that an article needs to reach a state where it doesn't need to be improved for it to be on ITN (or DYK, OTD etc). All articles that are on ITN, DYK and OTD generally can do with vast amounts of improvement. However, quite a number of people feel they have to reach a resonable standard before they are on ITN, DYK and OTD to be highlighted for improvement in the first place. This standard, as I've already pointed out, is quite clearly very different from the standard for featured articles. Nil Einne 17:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I have never ever claimed that ITN items are expected to be on the par with featured articles. Please don't misrepresent my point of view. Your point about "a reasonable standard" is taken. However, this "reasonable standard" is a highly subjective concept. People who don't contribute to mainspace tend to have strange ideas about its standards, so feelings of "a number of people" are not the substitute for a guideline. They cannot and should not be relied on. Perhaps "a number of people" have different feelings, has it never occurred to you? --Ghirla-трёп- 12:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Valley of Geysers is now on DYK. -- 06:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Real Wiki Library

Wiki has a lot of very general and brief entries on subjects. However, it would be SO much better if people can start putting in BOOKS instead of mere paragraphs on a subject. Of course it would be books that can be distributed without violations.

To prove my point, the subject of philosophy has no where near the amount of information that would be needed to understand the subject. Nothing short of giving a comprehensive guide and host of all the BASIC books would make it helpful to understand the subject.

Please allow the automatic upload of PDF and/or text files to wiki —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Twinscythe (talkcontribs) 21:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You may be interested in our sister project, Wikibooks. Corvus cornix 21:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and not a database of books. But as Corvus cornix just mentionned there's wikibooks, but I beleive that's for community-written textbooks. However if you want to upload public domain books, you'd want to go to wikisource. --Dandin1 21:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why User:Twinscythe didn't know about Wikibooks and Wikisource. It's probably because TFA & DYK are excessively long, forcing ITN & OTD to be also long just to balance the two sides on the main page, then forcing POTD down, and then shoving the section on the sister projects so far down that he/she misses them.
Please stick to the limits. -- 04:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
While sticking to the limits may be wise I question your claims. Wikinews is linked to in ITN and it's usually visible with scrolling but we still get lots of people who don't know about wikinews and think ITN is wikinews. The fact is that most people only give the main page a cursory glance and therefore miss things even if they are fairly prominent and this holds true even when people decide to come here to complain about something Nil Einne 05:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the link to Wikinews is at the bottom of ITN, just above OTD. -- 13:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Exactly, so it's easily visible. And the fact that people are still missing it suggests that in fact the biggest reason why Twinscythe and others aren't aware of wikibooks, wikisource and wikinews is not because the links aren't visible enough. But because most people only give a cursory glance to the main page and only take in what they think is important which sadly isn't links to other wikiprojects most of the time. Therefore, while keeping to the limits is a good idea, it's not likely to have that great an effect on whether people notice our links to wikisource and wikibooks Nil Einne 16:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It's hard not to think that the excessively long layout makes things at the bottom less visible and less accessible. Not everyone will scroll all the way down. -- 04:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It's less visible for sure and some people will miss it because of that. But I'm still not convinced that it's likely the average reader who doesn't see it, would have seen it were it not so low down. As I've said from the start, I'm not arguing with your point that we should stick to the limits. There are good reasons we should and one of them is that it pushes stuff further down. However IMHO, the reality is most people are still going to miss the stuff at the bottom even when we stick to the limits. I don't believe, as you seem to be suggesting that a lot of people are missing the links at the bottom because we're not sticking to the limits. (As an aside, I'm not even convinced moving them up to the top as has been suggested below will make that big a difference in how many people will click on them.) Also, I have to say the bigger issue in any case when it comes to the links at the bottom IMHO is not so much the extra text when we don't stick to the limits. The reality is there is a lot of other 'junk' that people have to scroll to first before they get to the links to the other project (I don't mean the other stuff is really useless, simply that it's something that other people see first). To avoid confusion, I'll repeat my conclusions. Yes we should stick to the limits. Yes it makes a (probably very small) difference in how many people see the other project links. But no, I don't think twinscythe would have seen the other project links if we'd stuck to the limits Nil Einne 20:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we should stick to the limits. Yes, it makes a small difference in how many people see the other project links. Thank you. --

Tomorrow's featured picture

On my browsers its coming up as a red link for a template that seems to have been deleted -- Brent Ward 14:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Not deleted, just not yet created. Need an admin to create the POTD file and protect it right after. -- 14:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


For some reason, people keep vandalizing the main page somehow. I guess that sometimes the Main Page is unprotected and the vandals get there at just the right time. How can this be fixed? Another thing is how about protecting all of the templates that appear on the Main Page and the template that appears on the templates that appear on the Main Page, and so on? ANNAfoxlover 20:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about any vandalism, I didn't see it. But everything that appears on the main page, including templates should in theory be cascade protected automatically. Occasionally problems happen or admins go rogue or admin accounts get hacked but generally it works well. Nil Einne 20:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • There hasn't been any vandalism to the main page in over a month, according to the history. —Dark•Shikari[T] 20:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • But lots of vandalism in Talk:Main Page, mostly newbies testing and blanking. -- 06:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • And all things appearing on Main Page are auto-protected anyway. ffm talk 11:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

How do I add U.S. Open starting to In the News Headlines???

Please add:

The U.S. Open begins at Oakmont Country Club near Pittsburgh.

To the news! Thanks. Hholt01 15:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

We normally only mention when the results are final. You want WP:ITN/C. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-06-11 18:17Z
Thanks 18:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Today's featured article protection

Our why we generally don't protect an article whilst it's featured on the main page explanatory guideline has, it has been suggested in a few places of late, undergone some meaningful if ostensibly insignificant changes of late (I don't know that it appears that our fundamental approach has changed; it's more likely that that approach simply no longer, rightly or wrongly, comports with policy [which should, of course, be descriptive]), and so editors interested in the issue—which presents itself not infrequently here and which is referenced at the main page FAQ—might do well to weigh in here. Joe 03:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Big gap to the right of the featured picture

Today there's a huge white space next to the featured picture box. Not intentional right? LukeSurl t c 09:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I see a purple space. If it is this to which you are refereing to, then this is just because the POTD is so large today. ffm talk 13:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


I think This page is very well set up I will forever use wikipedia

Thanks, but this isn't exactly appropreate for wikipedia's main page. ffm talk 19:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Redierect error

Wikipedia:Main_Page shows a wikimedia error message currently. ffm talk 13:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Problem seems do have disappeared on its own. ffm talk 13:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Spaceflights on ITN

The ITN section seems to frequently mention spaceflights, particularly Space Shuttle launches. However, most of these launches are quite routine ones; there's typically a Shuttle flight every couple of months, and Soyuz launches every 5 months or so, and most of these missions, while important, are not necessary news-worthy: yes, the ISS needs more Integrated Truss Structures, but is it really more news-worthy than any of the other stuff which happened on 8 June, 2007 (in particular, the 2007 Hunter region and Central Coast storms, which caused death, injury and property damage, have a medium-length article, with some striking images, which could have done with a little main-page exposure). Perhaps in future, these should be limited to major flights only (ie; the sort that are widely reported in non-specialised news sources), such as the launch of a well-publicized space probe or when the last ISS component is launched. Laïka 12:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not a question of what's more important (which is terribly subjective), it's the fact that no one has suggested the article you mentioned. --Monotonehell 12:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Try WP:ITN/C. 2007 Chittagong mudslide is waiting there. -- 05:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I've always appreciated having the current spaceflights in the main news, and was disappointed when I didn't see it there today....Ravenmasterq 04:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

oh noes censor! censor!

you're linking to sex in film! kids will see it! parents will be angry! rawr! (i know about Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not censored#Wikipedia is not censored).--Ithinkiexist 20:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see which section you are talking about, but I like it none-the-less... Raul654 20:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
First item in DYK. I demand this filth and any servers it is stored on be burned, and the ashes microwaved and then flushed down a toilet, after which the sewage treatment plant must also be burned. For the children!--Fyre2387 (talkcontribs) 20:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
You forgot to ask that anyone who has seen it be shot. After all, if they've seen it, it's always possible they'll tell someone. And then we have to burn the bodies. If we don't, it's always possible that at some point in the future, some advanced alien civilization might be able to scan their brains. THINK OF THE CHILDREN! (Alien or otherwise) Raul654 20:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Big Dongs Express, baby Bubby the Tour G 20:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
PS - Every time you say "think of the children", god snuffs a dozen of them out. And if you say it in all caps, it's two dozen... Raul654 20:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course, we have to think of the children. Any who saw it should be incinerated forthwith. In fact, probably best to kill them all now just in case. It's the only way to be sure. Dragons flight 20:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I like it - simple, cheap and easy to implement, good for the environment. It's a win-win. Raul654 20:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Since when is it news that Wikipedia peddles smut to children? I really do wonder what the outrage would be if we just featured God awful filth for a week. ShadowHalo 22:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

omg! shit is used in the FA!! this is outrageous@@!--Lawlerblades111 00:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, this is bananas. ShadowHalo 00:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
B-A-N-A-N-A-S! --- RockMFR 01:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Jokes or not, not censored notwithstanding, I still think we should generally refrain from using profanities on the main page. While it's an important part of the FA, it's not the subject of the FA (this is not the first time this has happened), and that's more sentences than that part of the page needs from the FA.

The Main Page is the public face of Wikipedia ... whatever other nastiness is found within, it ought not to be out there IMO. Daniel Case 01:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that the sentence using the term on the front page has a "citation needed" tag on the main article page. Shock value over accuracy I guess. - Pal 01:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Good point. All the sources I've read so far have consistency ragged on the song's overall annoyingness, not the use of the word "shit". --- RockMFR 02:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
We should stick to using a more mature, civilized word like "doody". *Dan T.* 02:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit conflict] The word shit is an inseparable part of the song. It's used around three dozen times. Also, the {{cn}} tag was misplaced and later removed by another editor. It wasn't cited in the lead, and doesn't need to be since it's cited in the main article text. ShadowHalo 02:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Inseparable it may be from the song, but the article itself devotes one graf of a four-graf "reception" section to one critic's complaint about the use of that word. How does that justify "especially" in the intro? I would have noted that had I been one of the reviewers of the original FAC, but given the multiple nominations and controversies it took to get it here I'd rather not revisit that.

Would the section excerpted here be compromised greatly if that sentence beginning "Despite ..." were not included? It's not exactly like we're starved for DYKs lately; one more could have fit in. Daniel Case 02:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, would that really be a good idea? WP:DYK says 5-8 should be used; adding another would make it an even dozen. ShadowHalo 03:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, you're sort of changing the subject, but anyway ... have you looked at the candidates page lately? Thanks to the bot, we're getting lots more candidates than we used to. I certainly think that calls for an increase in permitted DYKs ... otherwise it would be weeks till some made the Main Page, and they wouldn't really be new anymore. Daniel Case 05:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The number of candidates ebbs and flows. Even with the bot suggestions, someone still has to go through and vet them and write up a hook before they can be used. howcheng {chat} 20:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't you mean "Bugger me, I can't fucking believe we have 'shit' in today's crappy FA. What wanker thought it was a good idea"? :-P Nil Einne 10:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

i think if you don't want children to see this specific article, do not let tem use the internet by themselves, or not at all, plus they will find out 1 day, and check thier history after they have finished. bu i have to say do not make it a featured article, thats just messed up. --Jameogle 05:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Featured articles are about the quality of the article, not the quality of the subject. Otherwise, Hollaback Girl never would have made FA. ShadowHalo 12:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, if George W. Bush ever made FA, we would surely feature him Nil Einne 16:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)