Talk:Main Page/Archive 163

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How gruesome!

Looking at the DYK and OTD sections today are making me sick to my stomach. The vast majority of articles advertised here are about wars and battles. Nazi concentration camps? United States Naval Academy? Ten Years' War? A Chinese general? Battle of Tours, Battle of Karbala, etc. Why are we drawing so much attention to violence and mass murder on the main page? I'm absolutely disgusted at Wikipedia.--128.227.133.183 (talk) 18:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Yea, the opening of the Naval Academy is awful. Hot Stop talk-contribs 18:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Because significant events should not be swept under the rug just because some people find them unpleasant, and things related to war are very often extremely significant. Would you prefer we only talk about nice things? 64.180.40.75 (talk) 20:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
In any case, one might argue that educating people about the horrors of war is a good way to promote non-violence. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Seconded. Informing about a subject is far from promoting it. Puchiko (Talk-email) 18:11, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
The blank space between DYK and the FP is more gruesome. Who designed the layout? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.11.237 (talk) 07:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
I think they're more than halfway in the slow-mo killing of DYK as we know it, hence it had 5 blurbs (compare to 8 blurbs before they "clamped down"). Only a matter of time before we squee with the debut of GAs to replace DYKs. –HTD 10:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
  • A hook was pulled at the last second. Yes, quite gruesome. Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Maybe i cant speak for everyone, but i noticed war articles etc generally get way more traffic than a standard milk and cookies article. I think if you want to downplay the influx of these articles on DYK one way is to stop glorifying DYK view counts. Just a personal opinion on my own observations of DYK. Ottawa4ever (talk) 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Templates

Does this use templates like {{In the news}}? The banner, or DYK, or FA? ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.252.2 (talk) 11:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, all content on the main page is rendered via templates. See Wikipedia:FAQ/Main Page#How are templates used on the Main Page?. Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

italian WP

As you perhpas know the Italian WP was completely blocked because of a protest against a proposed law which will force Blogger or Websites to remove information about persons without testing whether the information is true or not. Here you can see that German Wikipedians did address their solidarity with the Italian community. de:Wikipedia:Solidaritätserklärung_mit_dem_italienischen_Wikipedia-Streik. We invite you to participate in our solidary address or would encourage you to initiate another solidarity address on your own. Greetings --87.2.187.133 (talk) 08:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I see that there is an English translation but it may be advisable (if this hasn't already been done) to seek out someone to provide an Italian translation too? Nil Einne (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)178.119.227.129 (talk) 07:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Irony in "In the News" section

Does anyone find the following "In the News" item sad/ironic/amusing: "After five years in captivity, Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit (pictured) is freed in exchange for the release of 1,027 Palestinian prisoners."

If I were in charge of the page, I would take a picture of the 1,027 Palestinians and replace the item with "1,027 Palestinian prisoners (pictured) are freed in exchange for 1 Israeli prisoner."

And no, I'm not anti-Israel or anti-Palestine, I'm just a neutral party who can't understand how that can be considered fair. Gilad was nothing more than a soldier--and he is worth over 1,000 Palestinians?

Allow me to elaborate. Linguistically, if a headline were to read "X is exchanged for Y," I'd figure that X is the more important of the set {X,Y}, since it is the subject of the sentence. So I feel that this item implicitly assigns more importance to, and hence values more, the captivity of 1 Israeli soldier than the captivity of 1,027 Palestinians.

I acknowledge that getting a single picture of 1,027 Palestinians is more challenging than getting a picture of Gilad Shalit, but the inclusion of his picture over the captives' picture is also an implicit indication of bias. Inasilentway (talk) 02:14, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd actually like to see some more "in the News" on the english wikipedia that actually reflect english language news. I understand the impetus to avoid bias but this story wasn't even close to a top ten in my country today. This counts below a bunch of exotic animals set free by a suicidal owner and killed, sarkozy's wife giving birth, lindsay lohan getting probation revoked, and a new camera with unlimitied field of focus that we've already heard about, ten times at least. Yes I am trying to be ironical, but consider for a moment that the ONLY exposure many people are going to have of Shalit is on wikipedia's front page - let's entice them to read more instead of turning them off to learning.97.87.1.230 (talk) 08:03, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, tt's a difficult event to cover with total balance, but removing the image would be a start. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, HiLo48. I do believe the image should be removed, first and foremost. Afterwords, we should rewrite the "In the news" item. Inasilentway (talk) 03:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
The news item is well writen and picture should stay, saying we should picture the 1,027 is just plain nonsense, The fact that 1 is less than 1000 doesn't mean it should be mentioned second as becouse many news websites and newspaper mentioned his name and the number he was exchange with. See BBC - Gilad Shalit freed in Israeli-Palestinian prisoner swap, The Guardian - Gilad Shalit prisoner swap deal reached, and many more websites, both western and arabs, the second fact is that if Hamas didn't hold Shalit the exchange would have not be taken place.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 04:35, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
That's either a very biased or very silly comment. There are two sides here and we must not take either of them. Of course we won't have a picture of the 1,027. Therefore, to be neutral, we shouldn't have a picture of the 1. HiLo48 (talk) 06:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Gilad is nothing more than a soldier, but he is also the entire reason why this story is notable, as borne out by the RSes. Given that, mentioning him first is NPOV. We aren't picking a side, just reflecting what our sources say. Resolute 05:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. Gilad is notable because of the story; the story is not notable because of Gilad. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The neutrality issue was precisely why I proposed the two-flags image for ITN in Candidates. Given the broad references and availabilities, it was entirely reasonable that the article maintain a heavy Shalit picture tilt -- but on ITN, that tilt should be avoided if possible. - Tenebris 06:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.190 (talk)

I don't think the fact that media references include pictures of Gilad rather than any of the 1,027 Palestinians is reason why Wikipedia should do it. Wikipedia is not meant to reflect its sources in that particular way, particularly when the sources are media corporations rather than scholarly publications. Was Anthony Weiner's infamous photo included on ITN even though it was all over every piece of news media for several weeks? Inasilentway (talk) 21:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Hollywood babies make front pages of even quite good sources. Wikipedia must never succumb to treating such pap as quality content here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I was actually going to make a comment pretty much along the lines of Inasilentway's but of course he got here first. Like many others, I have my own opinions and sympathies when it comes to that place :). In my case those sympathies are firmly on the hebraic side of the fence.
With that said, and while I understand and respect the arguments made as to how this is covered in the media elsewhere, I personally feel that this headline is a bit insensitive towards those other 1027 people involved, at least some of which did nothing more or less than Mr. Shalit to find themselves in that situation. I would like to propose something along the lines of "A prisoner exchange took place between Israel and Hamas, in which Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and 1027 prisoners held by Israel were freed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.151.147.103 (talk) 19:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Question about page view statistics

Clicking on "History" and then "Page View Statistics" reveals this is the SECOND most viewed page in Wikipedia, so what is the first? Thank you in advance for any feedback, ACEOREVIVED (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

According to this, the most viewed page is "Special:Export/SynchronizationStartTime:", which was apparently viewed over a billion times last December. I think that we can safely say that is because of some technical thing and that the MP is our most viewed page. Jenks24 (talk) 09:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


Many thanks for getting back to me so quickly on this. Forgive me, but I am not even sure what "Special:Export/SynchronizationStartTime:" means. Can you explain please what it means? Thank you in advance for you co-operation. I wonder whether it just means that people from different parts of the world have (and therefore different time zones) have to be logged in what, in Wikipedia technicalities, is counted as equivalent time. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, no one has got back to me to explain what that means - I take it does mean the times that one gets logged onto Wikipedia. I agree, it appears to be something technical - having clicked on the hypertext above, it does not take one to an article that any one would wish to read! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:38, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

You can also ask on WP:VPT if you want. Or ask someone like User talk:PrimeHunter or User talk:Edokter; I think they know about that script. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 13:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Last time I checked (december of last year, I think), it was Special:Search, which makes a lot more sense. Something is wrong with the pageview counter, FYI. Buggie111 (talk) 00:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I'm quite curious, I'm stunned that the Gaddafi article [1] got fewer hits today than it did in previous days. With all the attention about his death (I heard a couple of guys talking about it at McDonald's), I thought it would get a million hits at least. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I would expect the stats to be considerably higher today. — Joseph Fox 03:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't know what Special:Export/SynchronizationStartTime: is supposed to be other than an attempt to use Special:Export on the non-existing page name SynchronizationStartTime:. Other non-existing page names like Special:Export/NonexistingPage display exactly the same, while an existing page like Special:Export/Disambiguation_(disambiguation) adds content from the marvelously named Disambiguation (disambiguation) to the end. I suspect the page view stats is either an error or an indication of a one-time server incidence of some kind. The most viewed list at http://stats.grok.se/en/top is based on December 2010. http://stats.grok.se/en/201012/Special:Export/SynchronizationStartTime: looks odd. It says all views were on December 12, but it also says "None" on top of the column (perhaps something fails after 1000M). I don't know whether something at http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Server_admin_log/Archive_17#December_12 could have triggered the extreme page view stats. In the months since then it usually shows around 10 views per day. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
That tool is a bit odd. It lists Communist Russia as ranking higher than Soviet Union when the former is a redirect for the latter, and has been for years, and even though the hits are higher for Soviet Union.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Number of hooks in DYK

DYK formerly had 8 "hooks" in each set, and ran 3 or 4 sets a day. Due to a significant slowdown in production, we are now running just 6 hooks in a set, and 2 sets per day. Production is increasing, and it should be possible to increase to 7 hooks per set. Would that create any concerns for other Main Page projects? (I imagine that a slightly longer DYK section actually would make life easier for ITN and OTD.) --Orlady (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I can tell you why the production of DYK has slowed: the system is such a mess it's hard to nominate anything there. I can't imagine this is a problem, anyway. — Joseph Fox 05:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
^^I agree with that; I've written a few articles for DYK in the past year or so, but recently the process for nominating them has become so much more convoluted that's it's really not worth the hassle, and I've passed on the opportunity even when I do write something eligible. C628 (talk) 13:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
The changes in the DYK procedures were made in reaction to vociferous criticism of DYK by a few users who have taken it upon themselves to find fault with this feature -- and to cast aspersions on the intelligence, education, and probably the morals of the regular participants there. That created a lot of turmoil and has discouraged participation. If you enjoyed contributing to DYK in the past, you can help to restore some sanity by returning there -- and weighing in on the project discussion page regarding your experiences with the new procedures. --Orlady (talk) 14:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
IIRC, the changes at DYK were made in response to an RFC, and at least the amount of plagiarism appearing on the mainpage has declined as a result. (I personally disagreed with the convoluted checklist that was instituted, as I don't believe it will cause a change in the habits of less-than-thorough reviewers, but the institution of archives has helped increase accountability.) You, Orlady, have conducted many thorough reviews, finding issues after hooks were approved by other reviewers, but I don't believe the situation has improved enough to increase production-- more issues are being detected now as a result of the increased accountability (Wikipedia:Did you know/Removed), which has resulted in better detection of faulty reviews, but incomplete reviews and a push for sensationalist, catchy hooks are still resulting in inaccurate info and original research running on Wikipedia's mainpage (Wikipedia:Did you know/Mainpage disputed). I'm not sure, though, if defensive intransigence on the part of some other regulars at DYK should be classified as part of "intelligence", "education" or "morals".[2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Well that seems to be a clear consensus that 7 or more is fine. Actually Orlady its you who is doing the work so it should be you and the remaining active project members who come to a conclusion at DYK talk. You can look at a list of bad articles found and argue that its so long because there is so much rogue behaviour or its so long because you are catching so many problems. Obviously problem articles should have fallen by at least 50% as we used to run 48 new articles a day. However its not clear to me whether you have lost poor articles or good contributors Victuallers (talk) 15:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Victuallers, I'm not seeing any clear consensus, here or at DYK talk. Here it's 2 for, 1 against; at DYK talk it's 2 for, 4 against. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Orlady+Jos Fox+C628+Vict=4 Victuallers (talk) 10:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
C628 seems to be agreeing with the statement JFox made about issues with the DYK process, and you did not state your preference except to say that a consensus exists. Furthermore, at DYK talk (which you argue should be the place to decide this), consensus seems to be running against the increase. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

TFP

The pic would be so much more effective at larger size ... like, 50–100% larger. Tony (talk) 08:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  • I'll second that. It's always been frustrating for me to understand the point of featuring a picture when it's at a small size. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Thirded. Looked like a black blob at first... HurricaneFan25 13:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I think it looks fine as it is, to be honest... — Joseph Fox 19:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree with Fox: none of the pictures look like a black blob to me, but if it looks blobby to anybody, it should probably be made bigger. pluma Ø 05:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Troll move

Move Swamp Wallaby back where it was asap. Thanks.♫GoP♫TCN 19:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not the place to request this - post at WP:ANI instead. I'll look into it though. — Joseph Fox 19:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

OTD wikilinking

Is there any particular reason why the years should be wikilinked in SA/OTD entries? I left this query at Wikipedia_talk:Selected_anniversaries last week and received no response. It seems like overlinking to me unless there's a good reason to do it. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Glad someone has brought this up, it's been bugging me for a while now. Not only is it overlinking, but most year articles are unreferenced and, to be honest, crap. Jenks24 (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. Unless someone objects either here or on the OTD page, it is my intention to start removing year links when I perform other edits to OTD pages. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The OTD pages are designed to mirror the the style of days of the year lists (e.g. the January 1, January 2 ... December 31) pages. The days of the year pages link to the year articles (e.g. 2011, 2010 ... 900, etc.), and the year articles link back to the days of the years. This style is detailed on Wikipedia:WikiProject Days of the year#Style and Wikipedia:Days of the year, among others. If anything, you should propose such changes on those pages first.

Furthermore, as stated in many discussions here on this talk page, the Main page is treated more as a portal to let users (especially new users) explore the different articles around Wikipedia (including the days of the year, and year pages), and thus the guidelines on WP:OVERLINK tend to be more relaxed here than a regular article. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The latter of the style pages you link doesn't seem to mention it; am I missing something? I'm not particularly concerned by what WikiProject DotY decides for its pages, as the Main Page is a whole-community venture; just because the WikiProject prefers a certain style is no reason to impose it on the entire project. Also, we prefer to avoid drawing attention to poorly-developed pages via the Main Page where possible (thus OTD's non-bolding of problematic pages), and as Jenks24 points out above a number of the year pages have considerable issues. Furthermore, your reference to discussions here is outdated: all of the recent discussions on the topic here that I've seen have advocated less wikilinking on the MP, not more. Any other opinions? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
My mistake: it is only on the former guideline and not the latter. Secondly, the bolding or non-bolding of links on the Main page only pertains to whether the primary article on the said blurb is a good article or a problematic one; we still link to other articles on the Main page that help give context:[3][4] My understanding was the discussions of reducing the wikilinking only pertained to the prose on the TFA, TFL, and TFL sections, and some of prose on the individual blurbs on DYK, ITN, and OTD sections, because we linked to way too many articles that provided unnecessary or overly-detailed context -- not because these articles were problematic. To me, the links to the dates are more for navigation and give readers access to other events that happened on the specified year. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
"linked to way too many articles that provided unnecessary or overly-detailed context" - exactly. You don't need to see the page on the year to understand what happened on a particular day. Give the year, sure; link it, no. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. The year an event happened, and what was going on in the world during that time, provides sufficient context. What happened on a particular day may have been influenced by events that previously happened that year. Or the event in question could have affected later events. Or the year can provide a clue on what the culture, society, and technology was like during that time.
It seems we just disagree on what constitutes as "overly-detailed" content, much like there was disagreement on whether to remove the wikilinks to every single country mentioned on the Main page. But unlike those prior debates, just only three people contributing on this particular discussion is insufficient to overturn long-standing, more than eight-year old, prior consensus on all 366 OTD templates (including the rarely seen one for February 29). I'd rather not have this discussion end up with just you and me arguing for days. So again, are there any other opinions out there? Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:03, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
As the section dealing with dates, I do feel all dates in this section should be linked. 124.82.4.23 (talk) 07:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Linking of dates is to be expected, but not years. We get nothing but a set of articles that happened by coincidence on in a given year. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, exactly. I comment here not through any ideological position, but a sense of the practicalities of drawing readers to what matters. Focus them on the dates, not the years; the years can be accessed easily through the date articles, anyway. And while we're at it, please can we ensure that common country-names and other dictionary items are linked only if absolutely necessary—again, to funnel the dear readers into the thematic link-targets. Tony (talk) 10:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't see any harm in link years. It may not be all readers want to read the articles, but I'm sure some will. I would prefer we let our readers decide for themselves what they want to read and rather then shephard them to certain articles and force them to use indirect links because we believe they are unable to or shouldn't work out for themselves what they should read. The fact that the specific collection of years can be considered semi-random isn't really that significant, the events themselves are sort of random (yes we choose the significant ones but we usually have too many and no real way to decide what's most significant) as to some extent are all the links connected to the event but the years are connected to the event as Zzyzx11 has said so aren't irrelevant to the entry.
BTW I disagree that there is any real consensus to reduce 'over'linking on the main page. It's true most recent discussions have been started by people suggesting a reduction in linking, but even in these discussions it's generally became clear several people disagree there is overlinking and even among those who feel there is, precisely what and how much to reduce isn't clear. (It's hardly surprising that most discussions concerning moving the main page have been initated by those who support the move but although I support such a move I know there there's probably no consensus as we found out in the last major discussion although one thing we have close to consensus for is the main page isn't an article.) Most of the discussions I've seen haven't involved that many more participants then here which is very small for something concerning the main page. (I'm not sure if I participated before but I possibly didn't since I considered the discussions largely irrelevant, they are simply to small and poorly advertised to make a substanial change to the main page.)
If a widely advertised and well organised RFC (meaning for example there needs to be specifics on what to reduce, where and preferably with some explanation for why some feel the linking should be reduced and some feel it should be kept as is) on the issue does reveal a clear consensus to reduce overlinking then we can work from there. I have seen suggestions for a trial reduction and while I don't see any harm in a short trial, I don't actually see how it will do anything useful. Considering overlinking isn't something that comes up all the time, and even a change being something people are more likely to notice, the lack of or presence of complaints or praise won't really indicate either way. (Particularly since those for who the extra links are most likely to be useful are those won't don't visit the main page that often and are unlikely to visit a talk page.) The only thing useful IMO would be metrics which people can consider in an RFC although even these need to be treated with care to ensure we actually have statistically meaningful results and don't mislead people.
Nil Einne (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Note to posters: I have opened an RFC on this topic at Wikipedia_talk:Selected_anniversaries#Year_wikilinking_in_OTD. Interested users are invited to comment there. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Featured article

Why is there no picture for this featured article? Surely there's has to be someone who took a picture of it freely and without copyright. DarkGhost89 (talk) 04:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:FAQ/Main Page#Why is a Main Page section missing an illustrative image? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.11.237 (talk) 08:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
From the date of the signature, I presume this refers to Calabozos. If you check the article, there are in fact currently no highly relevant images. (For something like this, NFCC won't generally allow an image simply to show what it looks like at the current time even on the article itself.) Nil Einne (talk) 22:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Picture of the day caption

"Can be seen"..."can be seen"..."can be seen"... my English teacher would have put a diagonal red line through this, with a terse note in the margin to top it off. Sophie means wisdom (talk) 13:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Please post things like this in WP:ERRORS, as the box at the top of the page clearly indicates. Thanks. — Joseph Fox 13:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Items in the 'Did you know...' section often seem to be ads, like today's version

These seem like ads or publicity pieces to me:

  • The record of a gambler in a particular venue
  • The etymology of a rock band's name
  • A work performed by a local symphony
  • Mention of a video game related to unnamed film scenes.

The items may be of great interest to those mentioned. Perhaps not so much to others. - Ac44ck (talk) 02:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Remember DYK features new articles and significantly updates stubs. Ergo the pool of articles is often going to be limited to more obscure articles and articles on recent things. Nil Einne (talk) 03:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
You might also want to post specific complaints about Did You Know items at Wikipedia talk:Did you know. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Naturally, interest is extremely subjective. Regarding the specific points above:
  • Tristan Wade - I'm not that into poker, but having three world series finishes is interesting enough.
  • Unified Theory - Einstein and rock 'n roll? I can't think of anything more interesting than that.
  • Kenai Peninsula Orchestra - I agree, this is a less than spectacular hook. I wouldn't call it advertising though.
  • Joe Danger: The Movie - Less than interesting (agreed). Not much that can be done with an upcoming game, though.
The debate about interest has raged for years, with hooks deemed too sensational at one end of the spectrum and ho-drum hooks at the other. Many editors prefer to play it safe, so hooks can at times be rather dry. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
For me, the Main Page is as much a vehicle for improvement as it is for showcasing content. Take a look at WP:TFLS. On the face of it it's a slow-moving, sprawling mess of a selection process, and those are the words of the page's creator. But when you look at the work actually done (compared to the amount of work done at the featured list removal process and cleanup task force), you see just how much good being on the Main Page has done for the improvement of lists, and relatively diverse lists at that.

Back to DYK, this objection does raise a serious point. For quite a lot of (currently) poor quality high- or top-importance articles, the only possible route to the Main Page in future would be as Today's featured article. I would suggest some sort of mechanism whereby a significantly improved level 3 vital article can go up on DYK without needing to meet the usual standards eligibility criteria (of course a VITAL article should meet DYK standards on referencing etc). —WFC— 03:29, 26 October 2011 (UTC) EDITED —WFC— 03:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

  • That would definitely need to be discussed at WT:DYK Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
No change could be made to DYK without being extensively discussed there, of course. The specific suggestion may or may not be the way to do it, but the general point of encouraging improvement to key articles relates to the role of the Main Page as a whole, and should be explored here. —WFC— 04:59, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

1929 crash

"'Black Tuesday' set off the Great Depression". But does that really summarize the conflicting opinions in the article? Art LaPella (talk) 06:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

    • I agree. I understand that, among scientists and historians, there may be parity for some events, but the cause of the Great Depression has always been widely disputed. In situations like this, we should opt for verifiability above anything else.--WaltCip (talk) 17:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the 800-pound gorilla is in the room when the blurb is rewritten so that nothing is even mentioned about Black Tuesday's association with the start of the Great Depression in popular parlance. The way it's written now it feels just like any ordinary black day, sorta like Black Monday (1987) or the Flash Crash. hbdragon88 (talk) 06:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


Birdy bias? Chirp.

A TFA with a bird and a TFP with a bird — really now, that's two images and two articles related to birds, with a total of...five links about birds and two pics? That's seven. HurricaneFan25 15:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

A nice pair of tits
A cock in between the tits and boobies
Ah, but everyone loves birds. Just look at the number of people searching Wikipedia for cocks, tits, and boobies;-). --Allen3 talk 15:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
A booby to go with your tits
Yep. Face-smile.svg HurricaneFan25 15:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I thot I thaw a pussy

Oh, no, systemic bias!! Where's Moni3 when we need her? Surely someone will come along and make an issue out of this chance occurrence, but I think this section provides a good opportunity for some much needed levity via a caption contest. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Please. This is NOT the place for humo(u)r. Or innuendo. That should be saved for WP:AN/I or some other dark corner of Wikipedia. And yes, I too love a good shag. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
  • It looks like we may soon have a bird in ITN as well. Hut 8.5 16:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I love me some systematic bias... (?). JORGENEVSKI 22:36, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Three quarter length portrait of Darwin aged about 30, with straight brown hair receding from his high forehead and long side-whiskers, smiling quietly, in wide lapelled jacket, waistcoat and high collar with cravat.
Mr. Charles had a thing for, um, the birds (uh duh?).

I just wanted to let you guys know that this topic is full of win. I wish these Main Page bias topics were as amusing as this one. hbdragon88 (talk) 00:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed! I had a good laugh out of it!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Nobody is railing on us now
Really wasn't intentional, to be honest :) HurricaneFan25 01:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oh, come on. We never get the chance to be cocky and look at pygmy tits. Nobody should rail on us. Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm coming to this late, but back in February 2009 we had three battleships on the main page (TFA, DYK, and (weirdly) ITN because they discovered a long-lost battleship on the bottom of the Mediterranean). It does happen from time to time. Also, nice work bird editors, keep it up. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 04:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I like a girl with great tits - don't you?
All these tits and boobies have caused me to have a hard ... swallow.
If I'm not mistaken I think these boys will go home and try to lay hands on a hairy woodpecker. The woodcock typically emerges when the light grows dim...
You pervert!

Qantas bias?

The TFA is about Qantas, and so is the topmost ITN entry. What's up with that? 80.122.178.68 (talk) 18:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I imagine a coincidence. The TFA is selected a little in advance (and is actually not directly about Qantas), Qantas cancelling all services today was unexpected, but still internationally significant news which should be covered in ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
In fact if you look at the timing carefully Lester Brain was TFA for 29 October 2011 meaning it was on the main page at 0:00 UTC (i.e. 11:00 AEDT) 29 October 2011. Qantas didn't even inform the Australian government of the decision until 2pm AEDT (03:00 UTC) on the 29th [5], and the press conference was around 5pm AEDT (06:00 UTC) on the 29th. (AEDT is UTC+11.) So the TFA was on the main page before even the Australian government knew of the upcoming grounding/lockout, let alone nearly everyone else. Nil Einne (talk) 14:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Hallowe'en

It would appear that some of those involved in compiling DYK are hoping to run entire sets of hooks themed around Hallowe'en. This seems to me to be entirely disproportionate to the importance (i.e. no importance at all beyond the bank accounts of retailers of sweets and shoddy dressing up outfits) of the "festival". There was no discussion at WT:DYK to try to gain consensus, merely an announcement that this was being pursued. Comments? Kevin McE (talk) 21:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, this is done every year, so I guess no discussion took place simply because it's the status quo. As a non-American, I also don't really see why Halloween is such as a big deal, but I don't really see the harm in running those hooks. Jenks24 (talk) 21:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
It's an annual thing at DYK since I don't know when. The oldest archive I can find right now is Wikipedia:Did you know/Halloween 2008, but I think we started this Halloween thing earlier than 2008. --PFHLai (talk) 00:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
The earliest Halloween oriented update on DYK was in 2006 and was heavily influenced by TFAs decision to display a holiday themed FA. At that time it was just the updating admin sifting through a weeks worth of hook submissions intentionally slanting the selection process so that "spookier" hooks appeared on that date (At the time the response was generally positive). The first year with an organized effort was 2008. --Allen3 talk 00:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Oh, yes, it was 2006. Thanks for reminding, Allen3. That Halloween DYK set inspired me to write up National Christmas Tree (United States) for Christmas later that year! --PFHLai (talk) 03:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

It's common practice at DYK to group hooks together into one set for special occasions (regardless of how special individual editors think it is or isn't); if there are sufficient hooks (ie new or newly expanded articles), then it's quite normal for entire sets to be dedicated to the occasion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Not to mention that these hooks themselves are not explicitly about Halloween. There may be more American hooks than is usual, but there are also hooks from Africa, Asia, and Europe, as well as one that is global. Still balanced, IMHO. Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I have liked the idea of trying to 'theme' dyk - e.g. French material for Bastille Day, environmental stuff for various environmental days, or national days etc. At least the kids aren't stuffing chocolate easter eggs in their gobs....oh I forgot trick or treating. I hope parents have some healthier treats these days....Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Psst... the raisins and apples and similar stuff you give out that no kid ever wants is thrown away seconds after you hand it to them and every smile you've every gotten at the door was just them just being polite. If you've had problems with shaving cream, being tp'ed or the like, that's revenge. Stuffing chocolate easter eggs in your gob on Halloween until you are sick when you're ten is a sacred right and rite.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I think you'll find that any other day of the year its called demanding goods with menaces. Kevin McE (talk) 08:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • What a pity if the creepy woman and the ape-vs.-demon match won't be on main page tomorrow. The Michael "Darkeye" Higgins picture fits perfectly for Halloween + a pervert TFA.--♫GoP♫TCN 16:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Are you going to raise similar objection at xmas, an equally "commercial" and ultimately meaningless holiday? - OldManNeptune 00:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sick

USS Reuben James

Why so unspecific? More than 101 crew members of the USS Reuben James perished when the article quite clearly states only 44 of 159 survived. Wouldn't 115 crew members of the USS Reuben James perished be more precise and shorter? Calistemon (talk) 04:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Day of Seven Billion

If the human population has reached that number today, shouldn't we all drop everything and see if we actually can all stand on Zanzibar for a group photo from space? Daniel Case (talk) 15:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

We could also possibly attempt to form a new type of consciousness, finally! Perhaps, seven billion neurons could be equivalent to an infant's brain gestating in the womb. -- Mentifisto 22:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Todays Halloween 'Did you know?' is brilliant!

Closing thread: this has long since moved away from a discussion related to the main page. BencherliteTalk 17:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just wanted to say well done to everyone involved in today's brilliant halloween themed DYK. Finding so much grisly content among new articles must have been a bit of a pain, well done to you all! Coolug (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

  • A heartfelt thanks from me and everyone else at DYK who may not check the main page. Ghosts, murderers, and the most frightening of all... there are 7 billion mouths to feed! Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Great hooks today. Resolute 23:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
This is what Halloween should be about. Not the overcommercialised one we are accustomed to seeing. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I thought this was a bad idea from the get-go because Halloween is a blatantly US-centric holiday? –HTD 02:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, as Wikipedia will formally tell you, we more mature Australians do see Halloween as a pain in the arse, but I know where home base is for this allegedly global encyclopaedia, and recognise that resistance is futile ;-) HiLo48 (talk) 02:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Australia is nicknamed the "land of the long weekend" [8] and Leisure is actually a class in school. Relax. Let us have some fun. Abe Froman (talk) 02:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Simply being a (primarily) US holiday doesn't make it biased. I don't believe there's any rule against something of chiefly regional interest being included - and sometimes that's going to mean the US. - OldManNeptune 03:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, but I can still have a whinge about being forced by stand-over tactics to give tooth rotting lollies to kids manipulated by American commercial interests and TV shows. It's not fun having my house, garden and car vandalised because I didn't get to the door quickly enough. HiLo48 (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
It sounds like the problem is you're taking the wrong inspiration. If you would just do what you did with the Split Enz, Phar Lap, and Pavlova (food) and steal from us Kiwis you'd be sweet! (In NZ while trick or treating seems common in certain the suburbs, at least in Auckland, vandalism or destructive pranks are still AFAIK very rare even when you don't give anything.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I'll trade you that situation for Russell Crowe. You can have him back any time. HiLo48 (talk) 05:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I should say too that, in my lifetime in the US, through over three dozen Halloweens in different locations, never once has the idea of post-Halloween vandalism of the property of someone who didn't give out candy even been broached. If anything, the tricks come the night before Halloween (and that tradition seems to have died as well, due to the combination of overenthusiastic vandals and the corresponding increased police presence ... it has been a long time since I saw toilet paper and/or shaving cream on anything Halloween morning). Daniel Case (talk) 19:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I've seen some forum/nonRS discussion in modern times, it's a far bigger problem in the UK then the US (one of the reasons I did not name any country that the Aussies were following) Nil Einne (talk) 02:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


Hallowe'en is emphatically NOT a "U.S. centric holiday". It has long been oberved in my home country (the United Kingdom). In fact, the Pagan forerunner of Hallowe'en - Samhain - was observed on the East of the Atlantic long before the United States was even founded! Although it is true that the day is not an official Bank holiday in the United Kingdom, one only need observe shops here in the U.K. around about the time of Hallowe'en to see how widely observed the custom is in Britain. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Awesome In the News

That is an amazingly global "In the News" section. Six out of seven continents is represented with at least one story. 75.62.148.246 (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliment. Normally the "In the News" section and the Main Page is accused of being biased to a particular country. It is nice to hear praise once in a while! GizzaTalk © 01:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Where is the UNESCO news for Palistine admission?

Where is the UNESCO news?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Halil marx07 (talkcontribs) 08:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It had to be pulled due to issues with close paraphrasing. See ANI and WT:ITN. Jenks24 (talk) 08:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Close paraphasing is being nice. It was pulled for blatant copyright violations. Sven Manguard Wha? 08:51, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, okay, no need to snipe, Sven. — Joseph Fox 12:17, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but no, there is in fact a need to snipe. Whole paragraphs were taken almost verbatim, any of the copyvio scanner tools we have would have caught that damn quick if someone screened the article before throwing it onto the main page. Yes, for once the copyvio on the main page didn't come out of DYK, but still... Sven Manguard Wha? 13:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
They restore it. Halil marx07 (talk) 13:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)...82.118.161.114 (talk) 13:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

BBC TV HDTV 1936

The section "On this day” says, for 1936: "The BBC Television Service launched as the world's first regular, public all-electronic high-definition television service.” The article “BBC One” says that HDTV was introduced in 2010.
Wavelength (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It means the 405 line service which was known then as high-definition (#The early years 3rd Paragraph). The current BBC HD channel (1080 lines) was launched in 2006 (BBC One HD in 2010). -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 22:08, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
It also says "all electric". Was there an alternative that was partly powered by mice running in a wheel or something?
If this is an ignorant question, please point me to my error. --FormerIP (talk) 00:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
See Mechanical television. Graham87 00:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
OK, OK. But was this ever anything more than experimental? Do the words "regular" and "public" make "all-electronic" otiose? --FormerIP (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude, but you do understand there's a reason why we link to articles in the blurb or when people have questions right? As has already been explained, the linked BBC One does explain the HD bit. It also says:
As you can see from the 27th October version, these aren't new additions [9].
In the article on mechanical TV which wasn't linked from our blurb but is linked from the BBC One article and Graham87 linked above, it says in the intro:
Later it says:
Even later it says:
The article hasn't been changed since July 2011.
Nil Einne (talk) 13:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Annual end-of-year fundraiser

Excuse me, not that I'm missing anything, but is there going to be a fundraising drive at the end of this year, as usual, or not? I couldn't find anything, but I only took a little while to search and can't properly concentrate today. --Ouro (blah blah) 08:24, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Fundraising is handled by Wikimedia themselves, not by this language's Wikipedia. If you're interested in the status of Fundraising this year, have a look at the Fundraising page over at meta.wikimedia.org. :) — Joseph Fox 08:44, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Right, thanks. --Ouro (blah blah) 11:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done

Alfonso Cano

The death of Alfonso Cano is not appearing neither on Wikinews nor "In the News".201.209.196.94 (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's been nominated at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates. Feel free to add your thoughts. HiLo48 (talk) 22:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Number of articles

As far as I can see, for all the languages listed as having 650,000 articles, there are now more than 700,000 articles. Time to upgrade! - Ipigott (talk) 22:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Done.[10] Requests can be posted to Template talk:Wikipedia languages. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

More than 1,000,000 articles

Hello!
On the main page, it is indicated the number of articles on various Wikipedias:
  • English contains 3,790,000 articles
  • More than 700,000 items
  • More than 150,000 items
  • More than 50,000 items
Why not update the main page and creating :
  • More than 1,000,000,000 1,000,000 articles : Deutsch, English, Français
Time to upgrade! Thanks! Busway (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
This has been proposed and rejected so, so many times. Sorry. — Joseph Fox 18:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Why ? I don't remember the reason ? Yet it's a good update (more than 1,000,000,000 articles). Busway (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Apart from the fact that no wiki has yet hit 1,000,000,000 articles, see this here. ;) — Joseph Fox 18:28, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry ! I would write 1,000,000 articles. So I re-write my proposition
Why not update the main page and creating :
  • More than 1,000,000 articles : Deutsch, English, Français Busway (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Did you read any of the discussions to which Joseph Fox linked?
We don't list an "English" link (for obvious reasons), so a "more than 1,000,000 articles" tier would include two Wikipedias. There is longstanding consensus against creating a tier for such a small quantity. We didn't add a "more than 500,000 articles" tier (just updated to "more than 700,000 articles") until eight Wikipedias crossed that threshold. —David Levy 19:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
To be fair, four would probably be a more sensible cut-off. But we're not there yet. Modest Genius talk 19:26, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Four seems a bit low to me, but yeah, I don't mean to imply that eight is the absolute minimum.
We also must consider how the other tiers would be affected (and possibly adjust them accordingly). For example, in a hypothetical scenario in which a "more than 1,000,000 articles" tier replaces a "more than 800,000 articles" tier, Wikipedias containing 900,000 articles might be moved to a "more than 200,000 articles" tier (which is undesirable). —David Levy 19:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
O.K. ! Thanks ! Busway (talk) 19:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Main Page's logs

This is terrible! How can anybody have a right to delete the Main Page?! (Even for only two minutes.) And how “nobody can delete it again”? :/ ~Alex discussion 22:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

You might like to read Wikipedia:Don't delete the main page, and the references therein. Modest Genius talk 22:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Also relevant: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive126#Adding useless revisions to pages to make them undeletableDavid Levy 23:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
In 2005 Moriori moved the Main Page to the title "Hauturu/Little Barrier Island". (details) Ah, we were so innocent back then. - BanyanTree 05:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia

has more than 50.000 articles and should be included in the appropriate list on the main page.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

As reaching the 50,000 mark does not automatically guarantee inclusion on the list, this request is better addressed at Template talk:Wikipedia languages, so I will copy your request there. BencherliteTalk 08:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
OK. Thanks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Aragonese language

Please, put in the section of "Languages" the Wikipedia in aragonese. Thank you for you colaboration!

An anonymous user. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.221.132.51 (talk) 21:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The Aragonese Wikipedia is currently listed at meta:List of Wikipedias. To be listed on the English Wikipedia's Main page a language wikipedia currently needs at least 50,000 articles (this number tends to grow over time and languages with high percentages of stubs, redirects, or machine generated content usually require even higher totals). As the Aragonese langage has only created 26,716 articles, it falls well short of current listing guidelines. --Allen3 talk 21:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm just gonna point out that redirects aren't counted in the total number of articles a wiki has (unless this has changed recently, and I can't imagine why it would have), though they are counted in the total number of pages, along with project pages, templates, etc. AdamSommerton (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Please unlock the main page

Please unlock the main page. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 02:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Why? —{|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|} 02:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Here is the "Frequently Asked Questions" explanation. Art LaPella (talk) 03:10, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
But I want to vandalize it. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 22:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, only admins may vandalize the main page. Edokter (talk) — 22:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
It has happened: [11][12][13] Hut 8.5 22:55, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

for the Armistice Day / Veteran's Day themed DYKs. Wikipedia's gesture is very much appreciated.

"When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say, For your Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today." (The Kohima Memorial). 86.133.55.244 (talk) 12:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Extinction Bias

This is simply unacceptable. An INT about an extinct Rhino and a FP of an obviously extinct dinosaur? Seriously? I am disappoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsuyoi.ai (talkcontribs) 04:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

And what is the problem?--♫GoP♫TCN 11:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Question

Sorry, but who updates the main page? --46.12.65.6 (talk) 10:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

No one. People build consensus for the following "tasks": ITN, OTD, TFA, DYK, TFP and TFL, and admins subsequently put it on Main Page (they change the blurbs if they feel there is an error or something inappropriate). Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 11:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:FAQ/Main_Page#How_are_templates_used_on_the_Main_Page.3F. Modest Genius talk 15:50, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Please amendment. (Wikipedia Persian)

Persian Wikipedia article is 144.292. And not 166.166. See here — Preceding unsigned comment added by الشبح العربي (talkcontribs) 08:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The number-of-articles directive on fa.wiki states there are 166,296 articles. Edokter (talk) — 10:04, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Poppy

I appreciate this is leaving it quite late but could an image of a poppy be added to the main page for Armistice Day on 11 November and Remembrance Sunday on 12 November? Harrison49 (talk) 22:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I would be highly opposed to this on the grounds of A) avoiding creating a precedent for themed days marked in such a way, B) retaining neutrality, and C) minimizing systemic bias. Kevin McE (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Have there been any similar additions to the main page on any dates in the past? Coolug (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Kevin, I understand your first two concerns, but not the third: according to our articles on the subjects, Remembrance Day/Armistice Day are observed in a significant number of countries, not just the US or the Anglosphere. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
@Coolug, I don't think so. @Nikkimaria, how many countries outside the UK and Commonwealth use the poppy as the symbol of remembrance of war dead? My impression is (from reading the WP articles you linked) is that it isn't a widespread symbol. BencherliteTalk 00:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Ah, okay, I was thinking, based on part A, that Kevin was referring to marking the day at all, not specifically the poppy. Never mind then. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
To answer your question, Bencherlite, the UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand use the poppy (in their own right) as a symbol, while poppies are sold in over 180 other countries (admittedly usually sticking to expats). For the record I would be opposed to using one on the Main Page, unless it were in a suitable section. — Joseph Fox 03:51, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
On the 11th we have Armistice Day, Remembrance Day and Veterans Day in the Selected Anniversaries, the signing of the armistice in 1914 in On This Day, and a Today's Featured Article which is not only a pilot who served in WW1, but one who died on Remembrance Day in 1955. On Sunday 13th we will certainly be putting Remembrance Sunday in Selected Anniversaries, not sure about any other sections. I think that's mention enough without adding any unnecessary images. Oh and yes the poppy is a much more common symbol in the UK than elsewhere in the world. Modest Genius talk 00:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Poppies are used very extensively in Australia too. HiLo48 (talk) 10:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
And New Zealand. --LauraHale (talk) 10:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I didn't say they weren't. But more poppies are distributed in the UK than the rest of the world put together. Modest Genius talk 13:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
There is a poppy on DYK-P4 now. Pls move it to DYK-Q1 for use on MainPage on Remembrance Sunday, 13 November, as appropriate. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 09:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your replies. The main thing I was looking for was recognition of the days here on Wikipedia, which was achieved very well. Harrison49 (talk) 20:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Undue weight on military matters

At the moment I am looking at a wikipedia front page that is presenting articles of roughly 75% military content. I don't know if this has something to do with today's Veteran Day celebrations, but this is an encyclopedia of so much more content. More variation please, less kings and wars. (For information: I am myself involved in many military-related projects). --MoRsE (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

It's the Armstice/Veteran day theme. It's common (but not undisputable) practice to theme important days, such as X mas or the 9/11 anniversary. They'll be gone tomorrow. 89.24.143.20 (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
And Remembrance Day in several Commonwealth nations. We often tailor the main page towards topical days of observance. Just wait until April Fools Day! ;) Resolute 23:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
you just had to bring up April Fools Day, didn't you Resolute?...sigh...let the battle begin again....Rhodesisland (talk) 01:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

As user, I would prefer little banner. Let say commercial company,may be few, make donation to Wikipedia, and all users see little banner of gratitude to main donator(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.126.224.183 (talk) 13:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


American Censorship Day

Even WMF supports it, having changes their logo. Italian Wikipedia did it few weeks ago. Why are we not joining? See discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Bit late now, I would say. — Joseph Fox 00:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Portals on the Main Page?

In an RfC about the purpose of Portals, it was suggested that they be featured on the Main Page. Please join the discussion!--~TPW 19:05, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

FYI: The last major discussion on whether to include featuring portals, now archived on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Main Page features#Featured portals, was consensus to not to include them on the main page at this time. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 18:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the info!--~TPW 19:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

FYI, featured portal drive

Please see: Wikipedia_talk:Portal#Main_Page_Featured_Portal_drive. Thank you for your time, — Cirt (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Isn't it ironic that Wikipedia asks for donations in order to avoid placing annoying ad banners by putting a huge "please donate" banner on top? --Cerlomin (talk) 11:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

We do this in order to avoid having to place advertisements. A subtle difference. Edokter (talk) — 11:16, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
A Wikipedia reader is affected in basically the same way. Actually, since commercial advertisements are probably more profitable they could be made smaller and, thus, less annoying. --Cerlomin (talk) 11:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Profitable? We're a non-profit by definition, so that logic doesn't really check out. — Joseph Fox 11:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
You sir aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. --Cerlomin (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
We are a non-profit organization, but we need donations to keep running. That's why the banners exist. HurricaneFan25 19:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I think it's clear Cerlomin is saying that commercial advertisements (and there are ways this could be handled while keeping the WMF itself a legally recognised non-profit) would make more money then our yearly donation banners do and could be made smaller. I think there are holes in this argument (for example I don't think smaller automatically equals less annoying) but I don't think these replies other then perhaps Edokter have really addressed them. Nil Einne (talk) 20:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a non-profit organization, but they still need money. How would your local non-profit charity give to the pour if they had no money? The ad banners is because people don't donate, and the organization who's paying Wikipedia for the ad pays pays Wikipedia. StevenDP 20:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Additionally, commercial ads also result in an inherent, indirect, advertiser-generated bias—much like what happens on for-profit cable news networks. That is, once a given organization is addicted to the revenues generated by 3rd party advertisers, the 3rd party advertisers need only to threaten to stop advertising, and the organization is then forced to either acquiesce to the sponsor's demands or risk financial catastrophe. In fact, the more profitable the ad space, the greater the financial risk should it not be filled with high-dollar sponsors. Long story short, it's lose-lose for organizations who actually wish to remain neutral as a core pillar (as opposed to turning a profit). On the upside, our "ads" can be easily hidden, and we readily allow our users to do so without any need for ad-blocking software. --slakrtalk / 22:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
That was the answer I was looking for. Thank you Wikifriend. --Cerlomin (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello. I would have probably donated, but the left-wing extremism here and the weaselly use of the 'rules' to justify that left wing bias leaves a permanent bad taste in my mouth. I've paid attention to key subjects' discussion pages and I've seen how WP runs off all the right-wing conservatives, right-libertarians, constitutionalists, anti-globalization patriots, etc... Now I must say, WP is to academia what McDonald's is to restaurants. WP is not regarded on the same level as say, Encyclopedia Britannica. BUT, that doesn't mean that WP can't encourage HEALTHY debate where the perspectives of right-leaning Americans (or others) are respected. I've seen how the left-wing extremists here censor the content of articles, or even have articles deleted; then they hide behind the guidelines as if these were Law to prevent the legitimate reversion of an article back to an unbiased, left-spin-free version. Fortunately, there is still 'the rest of the internets', and WP is not the be-all and end-all of the 'Net. Wikipedia's credibility and reliability have consequently been damaged, and possibly irreparably - unless these issues are resolved and people of other political alignment are afforded a substantial stake in the administration, moderation, and editorial control of Wikipedia.

I will not be checking back for comments; my statement is only for the edification of the people who run Wikipedia, in the hopes that they will stop 'being evil', as the founders of Google would have put it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.39.185 (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The "people who run Wikipedia" don't read this talk page much, if by "run" you mean "financially support". If you want them to even read your opinion, you need to contact them directly. --NYKevin @783, i.e. 17:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd probably have donated by now if it weren't for Jimbo's ugly mug staring back at me every time I visit. I can't even look at the banner long enough to click on it. It's that bad. 71.62.210.158 (talk) 04:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Some people just prefer to have a little fun with Jimbo instead.--~TPW 20:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
We should contact Michele Merkin and ask if she would be willing to sub in for Jimbo's portrait. She's a featured picture, which should roll in the donations like crazy. hbdragon88 (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


I do not want to hear a word about putting banners or other advertisements on Wikipedia, or related Wikis. Asking for donations within a banner on the top of a Wikipedia page is nothing like a "shoot five iPods and win a car" advertisement on all the other websites in cyberspace. All users need to understand that Wikipedia does not manage itself. Dninyo (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest, if you don't want to hear such discussion, you might like to avoid visiting talk pages like this one. Interesting that you don't show the same respect for 'what other people want' as you expect for 'what you want'. I personally agree with some of the above posters, I may have been inclined to donate, but the size and persistence of the banners has ensured I won't. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

If the only thing stopping you from donating is the mere aesthetic appeal of a banner, then you are no altruist. Imagine if I used that same logic for not making a donation to a non-profit charity just because the picture they used of a homeless person on the donation box was ugly. "Would probably have donated" - Frankly, I don't think any of you would have donated at all. --WaltCip (talk) 00:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Extremely few people are true altruists, and I doubt you're one either. I do use the same logic for donating to charities, which isn't the strawman you invented for yourself just now. The ones that have respect for the people doing the donating, who don't harass them on the street or cold-call them repeatedly pleading for money, are the ones that get donations. It's simple - show respect and you get respect. Disrespect your donators, treat them like customers and use targeted marketing tactics, and you get nothing. These types of marketing have rapidly diminished in acceptability over the last 10 years. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Targeted marketing tactics - such as what? How can one disrespect donors when you aren't even donating? As far as advertisements go, the banner is extremely unobtrusive and does not impede with usage of Wikipedia the same way as a pop-up, a pop-under, or a Flash ad. I'd be interested to hear ideas as to how to fulfill the same function without being, as you say, "harassing" or "cold-calling".--WaltCip (talk) 02:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
This discussion doesn't really belong here but I'll answer. Not donating is a reaction, not a prior state. 'You aren't even donating' is a state caused by the banners, not one that existed prior to them. If they were less intrusive, they'd get a better reaction from me. Off the top of my head, ideas for how to make the banners less intrusive would be A) reducing their size significantly, B) having a gadget option to disable them, and C) respecting a viewer's action when they're closed. Thus far I've had the banner reappear multiple times a day after being closed. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Mobile Wikipedia

Who selected TFA and ITN for display at http://m.en.wikipedia.org? I always visit the main page on my cellphone, but I never need to see what the news is because I have other sites for that. Is there any way to get FPC instead or any other of the main page's content? Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know and don't know if anyone here does know. At a guess though, TFN and ITN were selected because they are the top 2 (in terms of location) on the default main page. You can try asking at WP:VP/T but I'm not sure if you can get much help there or anywhere on wikipedia. As I remarked Talk:Main Page/Archive 161#en.m.wikipedia.org part 2, the mobile site is AFAIK run by the foundation, I don't think we have much control over it. They appear to welcome feedback at twitter, mail, or the feedback function and their mailing list but I don't think there's really anywhere on wikipedia (perhaps somewhere on meta I don't know about that). To be fair though, I don't believe there's anyway to edit wikipedia via the mobile site (at least until the Athena skin comes along) so perhaps that makes sense. See also Help:Mobile access#Official online version. Nil Einne (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Not very practical, but doable
No, you can't edit from the mobile version, but you can edit from your mobile phone as long as you shut off the mobile site. Here's a screenshot of me, editing from an Android. I wasn't aware of Athena, thanks. :) Matthewedwards :  Chat  04:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Sometimes I get all frustrated that I can't edit that typo from my phone. Then I think about how maddening it would be to find and type the square brackets, and I feel better.--~TPW 12:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
There doesn't seem any good reason to include ITN on the mobile site. It regularly displays week old news and also frequently fails to post massive stories - e.g. the clearing of the Occupy Wall Street protests being a recent example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 12:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Well people shouldn't be looking at ITN for news anyway. I think the bigger question is whether it fulfills it's purpose well and that purpose is not to display news stories. And also whether people find the purpose useful. Nil Einne (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Avocado pic

It's a bit lame (sorry Muhammed—just in this context, I mean). And it's very small. And the TFA pic of the freeway is worthless at that size. Tony (talk) 11:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As I've said, people can "zoom in" with the intuitive method of clicking the photo. I can see it fine on my 13" screen anyway. — Joseph Fox 12:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I wonder sometimes if the TFA image should be displayed on the main page as a image which enlarges if rolled over. That way you would not have to leave the page to see a decent size presentation of that image.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
As the main page serves as an introduction to the site, consistency with our images' normal behavior is more helpful. —David Levy 22:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I think people quickly discover that the main page is a special case in many ways.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, the avocado description (and its article) both describe is being a large berry, whereas the article on berries specifically mentions the avocado not being one. It's a relatively minor inconsistency, but someone ought to verify which is correct, and edit the other. --108.21.63.154 (talk) 12:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

= ???

Why is the article Cleveland Steamer deleted? --93.210.106.184 (talk) 14:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(Warning to weak stomachs: Don't click) You meant this article, and here's the deletion discussion. Art LaPella (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Main page image protection

File:Malcolm II of Scotland.jpg (ITN) and File:Corvus coronoides.jpg (OTD) were not protected. Is there a problem in some protection routine on Commons? Materialscientist (talk) 01:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

They are temporarely uploaded here and protected locally. Edokter (talk) — 01:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Sure, the question is why weren't they protected before? Materialscientist (talk) 01:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
There is some sort of protection scheme on Commons at Commons:Auto-protected files/wikipedia/en that cascade protects them automatically, I believe. I don't know the specifics, but it shouldn't usually be necessary to upload and protect them here unless there is a malfunction of some sort. --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
That system was set up as a fallback. It isn't flawless and shouldn't be relied upon for first-line protection. —David Levy 02:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Ah, ok. So uploading and protecting is still the standard procedure? --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes. -- tariqabjotu 02:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

To clarify: when posting this, I haven't checked where those images were transcluded on Commons, I just checked that they were not protected. I went there now and don't see those images were transcluded to some protected page. The only purpose of this thread is to urge the operators to check the protection routines. Materialscientist (talk) 03:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Commons:Commons:Auto-protected files/wikipedia/en is the page. Looks like User:Krinkle's bot went down. It hasn't been operational for over 24 hours. howcheng {chat} 05:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
This is a good example of why not to rely on that system. —David Levy 05:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
No system is ideal, and I only know how the protection is done at DYK: manual local upload or manual protection on Commons. The DYK bot then checks 2 hours before the update whether the image is protected (warns if not) and does not update if the image is unprotected. The bot also deletes the local upload after it is off the main page. It is a fairly stable bot which can reset itself if hanging. Yet, as any bot, it does go offline from time to time due to toolserver maintenance and similar interruptions (roughly once per month). If the update is manual then the updater checks the image protection. This system works. It should be easy and helpful to write a bot/script checking the protection status of the images on the main page and alerting WP:ERRORS. This would require input from admins who update different MP sections, and someone to write the bot and keep an eye on it (sorry, this can't be me :-). Materialscientist (talk) 06:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
KrinkleBot is back in action today. howcheng {chat} 03:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Copyright status for K-143 shield

Is the image [14] (used for highway K-143 in DYK) not a copyrighted artwork belonging to the state of Kansas? The page does not even mention this, it is marked as "own work" of the uploader. I think at the very least the descriotion page should explain why the image is public domain; and if there's doubt then it should not be on the main page.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Doubt needs to be raised elsewhere, for example at WP:FFD, but while it is on the main page I believe it is exempt from such rules. — Joseph Fox 16:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
No, it is actually the opposite. Fair use and non-free images *may not* appear on the main page so if there is doubt then it should be taken off the MP first and then argued over afterwards. There amay be no issue of course but worth flagging anyway,  — Amakuru (talk) 16:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Sure. This has now rotated off the Main Page. — Joseph Fox 16:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
It's not possible to copyright a sign like that, it's made of simple geometric shapes and text. Now it may be trademarked, but that's a separate issue. hbdragon88 (talk) 22:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
U.S. state highway shields are not copyrighted for a number of reasons. First, many were first issued before 1978, without a copyright notice, thus they're PD. Second, most are included in their state's supplement to the federal Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices, making them a derivative work of a public domain document. Third is the geometric-shapes exception noted above. Daniel Case (talk) 17:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

No TFA today?

The TFA page at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 26, 2011 hasn't been created. HurricaneFan25 00:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Seriously... how did that happen? -- tariqabjotu 00:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I've alerted the persons responsible. Edokter (talk) — 00:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
If there is no action, I suggest we include the article in the nonspecific date request slot at WP:TFA/R.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Raul654 hasn't edited since Nov 24, Dabomb87 (who's been choosing the TFA recently) hasn't edited since Nov 22. I suggest somebody pick something. Hut 8.5 00:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I will do as I just suggested. Please no one edit conflict me.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Good enough for me. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Done. I am sure there is all sorts of cleanup work, notifications, etc etc. I have no idea how to do it.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I did some copyediting on the blurb. Feel free to improve further. Now the Main Page is heavily lopsided though. I'll head after ITN and SA, which, again, is far too long. -- tariqabjotu 00:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Template:TFA title/November 26, 2011 should contain the title of the page, it adds the editnotice (see Template:TFA title/November 25, 2011). Peter E. James (talk) 00:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
There should also be a picture, the main page does not look right. YE Pacific Hurricane 00:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I wish there were one, but I don't think there's a relevant free picture. -- tariqabjotu 00:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
(was not expecting a 2nd video game TFA in November, but considering it probably makes up for zero in October) Triforce!. –MuZemike 04:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

We have a free shot of WW director Eiji Aonuma. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

As I previously commented in a very similar context, two questions that are helpful to ask are:
  • Will the image's general nature be readily apparent to most readers seeing the blurb (before they read the caption)?
  • Would we seriously consider including the image in the article's infobox?
If the answer to both questions is "no," the image probably isn't particularly suitable. —David Levy 01:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Did you have that discussion bookmarked since this discussion is one of Main Page's Greatest Hits? (Other hits: "x bias" and "video game TFA bias" hbdragon88 (talk) 01:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I searched the archives for "who's that guy", a specific phrase that I recalled using in the discussion.  :) —David Levy 01:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Preventing reoccurrence

I have prepared an emergency TFA page here. I suggest that we keep this and perhaps one or two more in reserve as emergency TFAs and that we agree that in similar circumstances, we'll deal off the top on that page. We could even have a bot automatically add the article if there is no selection made by zero hour.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no TFA for tomorrow yet. May as well set that one up now, acting-FA Director Wehwalt!  ;) Resolute 01:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
All the kingdoms of the earth ... --Wehwalt (talk) 01:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Anyhoo, Dabomb is back. I suggest we keep that emergency page in reserve, though not necessarily the three articles I fairly randomly selected.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Glad that someone is back to clean up a bit. Props to Wehwalt for taking care of this before it ended up as egg on our face. May I suggest that, as Wehwalt suggested, we set up a list of 3-4 "emergency TFA" articles and blurbs that we can drop in just in case this happens again. --Jayron32 02:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I doubt it will ever happen again (I'm rewatching the next open TFA spot as I used to, and stopped doing when Dabomb87 was appointed), but Wehwalt's idea to keep a blurb in reserve is a good one (as long as we rotate it every now and then so we don't permanently keep an article out of the pool). I suggest that the reserve blurb be recorded somewhere on the WP:TFA/R page, since some of us (ahem, me) are likely to forget where to look for it in an emergency. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Three should be good, just in case. What I suggest is that every six months, Raul and Dabomb empty the page and run the articles that are on the emergency page, and the community can select some more. That kinda thing, anyway, we can work it out. We have a reserve and Raul and Dabomb get a little of their work prepared for them. Win win.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I'll offer a more permanent solution <gulp> ... I've never wanted to deal with the coprolalia-related vandalism that would likely erupt were Tourette syndrome to run as TFA, Raul has respected that, so it's been kinda sorta effectively out of the pool anyway. You can use it as the emergency blurb, and then it wouldn't have to be rotated unless it's used. You would probably have to semi it for vandalism, though. If you decide to put it up, let me know, I'll check the blurb. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
You know, I just realized we missed our chance to post Jenna Jameson! Resolute 02:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, but we'd look like we abused the opportunity to select an article when given it. It's better this way.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Oh pooh... you're no fun. Resolute 03:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
You'd be surprised.  :) Anyway, I've added the link to the emergency blurbs to the header at WP:TFA/R, and there may be one or two other places we might want to add a link. Not too public.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Found-- you meant WT:TFAR (the talk page). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, WT:TFA/R.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)