Talk:Mammoth Cave National Park

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Former good article Mammoth Cave National Park was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Red Dot[edit]

Is there any way we can move the red dot that illustrates where Mammoth Cave is? They have it at Covington, not Cave City, judging from the dot.--Bedford 11:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job Ektar, that looks much better.--Bedford 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Naming Conventions[edit]

The first paragraph somewhat implies that Mammoth Cave was named for Mammoth Cave Ridge. Obviously, the ridge is named for the cave and not the other way around.

Also, it is the Mammoth Cave System not only because it is under Mammoth Cave Ridge (at least it was until the map grew past these boundaries), but because it is named for it's most famous Entrance.

The cave now extends under several other ridges, as well-documented in some of the books listed at the end of the article.Larry E. Matthews (talk) 21:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

misconceptions[edit]

The "misconceptions" paragraph seems to contain original research and unverified claims. Could someone please add some citations or references to this so it doesn't have to be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.18.73 (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Misc[edit]

This paragraph doesn't make any sense, I assume it's a mishmash of multiple edits? I would fix it but I can't even figure out what it's trying to say:

In the early 1920s, George Morrison blasted a number of entrances to Mammoth Cave on land not owned by the Croghan Estate. Absent the data from the Croghan's secretive surveys, performed by Kaemper, Bishop, and others, which had not been published in a form suitable for determining the geographic extent of the cave, it was now conclusively shown that the Croghans had been for years exhibiting portions of Mammoth Cave which were not under land they owned.

82.16.16.210 (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Cave Length[edit]

I went to visit Mammoth Cave today (March 31, 2010), and Ranger Jackie indicated the current length of the cave is 396 miles of explored passageways, with more expected. He confirmed 31 miles of newly discovered and mapped passageways in the past year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.130.141.109 (talk) 22:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As much as I hate to do this, I must. What you have just described is original research and it is frowned upon here. Instead, Wikipedia is about verifiability and reliable sources. I am going to be making some changes to your contribution to source it to a reliable source -- the number is going to change for now as a result. If you can find a reliable source for a more up-to-date figure, please add it. Until then, the article must reflect what sources say, not what a Park Ranger told you while on a tour even if the Ranger is right. Thank you for your contribution and I hope you understand and keep contributing. WTucker (talk) 00:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I totally understand; it's hard to prove it. The web site run by the National Park Service for Mammoth Caves states "More than 367 miles explored", so they don't have to keep revising it each time a new section of cave is discovered. There is one article that I found that indicate a longer length, but not directly (at least not to me): this newspaper article states: "Today, explorers have discovered nearly 400 miles of interconnected passages." (Dayton Daily News, dated October 31, 2009). Source: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/beavercreek-author-80-still-inspires-generations-of-cavers-377746.html?imw=Y
That is probably not as good as a number and a statement that the cave continues to be mapped and its true length is presently unknown, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.130.141.109 (talk) 01:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your understanding and your diligent work to find a good source. The newspaper article could be used to say "nearly 400 miles"; but, I believe that the Long Caves List source is more reliable and has more significant digits. The Mammoth site seems to agree with the Long Caves List. Bob Gulden has kept an up-to-date list of official records (deepest and longest) for known caves for a while and he is meticulous about verifying the numbers from reliable first party sources. His site reflects the official NSS records. But, he will not update his site immediately. Instead, the site is updated when enough verifiable changes have come in for various caves (or about once a year if not, if I recall correctly). I know for a fact that his figures on Jewel were updated recently (March 15) as it just crossed the 150 mile threshold. WP is not about truth but about verifiablity. If the 396 number is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, the Long Caves List (or another reliable source) will publish it soon and this article can then be updated to reflect that source. Thanks again. WTucker (talk) 02:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
During a tour on 15-December-2010 multiple rangers cited the cave length as 392 surveyed miles. http://www.nps.gov/maca/historyculture/index.htm also cites this number ("Mammoth Cave is the world's longest known cave, with more than 392 miles of interconnected passages") which I believe should qualify as a verifiable source since it's the official park page. -- Wrh2 (talk) 16:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Interesting that the main page still says "390". But, good find and I have put a cite on your update. Thanks. WTucker (talk) 01:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The ranger who led the tour (and who also participates on survey trips) said he suspected that by July 4th they would be able to announce over 400 miles of total surveyed passages, so it sounds like a lot of new passages are being mapped. Perhaps NPS is simply unable to keep all pages of their site fully up-to-date given the high rate of new discoveries. -- Wrh2 (talk) 02:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

A cave system of over 500 miles in length of passages?[edit]

What is given in the reference for the connected length of Fisher Ridge Cave System and Mammoth Cave is a list of the lengths of various caves. Mammoth Cave System is given as 390 miles, Fisher Ridge Cave System as 114.1 miles. Together that would add up to 504.1 miles but there is no comment about whether connecting passages would be likely, possible, or absurd. One might as well write that if Stagebarn Crystal Cave in Meade county South Dakota, Bethlehem Cave in Meade county, Jewel Cave in Custer county, Wind Cave in Custer county, Reed's Cave in Custer county and Coyote Cave in Custer county were all connected; with over 60 miles of connecting passages(More than that length of connecting passages would be needed.) then the whole system would have over363 miles of passages. It is absurd to suggest that all of those South Dakota caves are interconnected, but unless there is some published suggestion that the Mammoth Cave System and Fisher Ridge Cave System might be interconnected the possibility should not be mentioned in the article. Fartherred (talk) 15:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you. I don't think the speculation on combined length is helpful and I am not sure what point it is trying to make except that there are a number of long caves in the area. As you pointed out, a reference was needed and one was provided (with simple math). I have no problem with removing the entire statement. WTucker (talk) 00:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps removing the statement is best, but there may be a reference that gives educated speculation about the combined length because connection seems likely. I am not great at finding references and it might be something unpublished. I will give it a shot. Fartherred (talk) 02:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Well I did not plow through an enormous number of web pages, but enough to convince me that removing the comment about combined length will improve the article. As always, editors of other opinions can restore and discuss. I think the comment violates WP:SYNTHESIS. It is a matter of judgment. Fartherred (talk) 14:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Fisher Ridge Cave System and Mammoth Cave are very close: one location in Mammoth (Bunnell Avenue in the Roppel section) is only 300 feet from known passages in Fisher. But the subject of connection is, among the explorers, a touchy one, as the two caves are explored by two different groups. The Fisher Ridge group, justly proud of their efforts in making Fisher one of the world's longest caves, are historically resistant to connection efforts from the Mammoth Cave side. It is probably inevitable that a connection will be found, but suggestions to that effect in the article would likely be a point of contention of the type that might lead to edit wars. I'm from the Mammoth Cave side (I found the Hoover Entrance in 2003, and was on the trip that connected to Mammoth in 2005) but I am sensitive to the feelings of the Fisher Ridge explorers. Just weighing in. Alan Canon (talk) 11:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Merge-Mania?[edit]

It makes no sense to have no article on Mammoth Cave, especially since the Mammoth Cave National Park doesn't even encompass the whole system.Ryoung122 17:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Mammoth Cave National Park[edit]

Written by: Luna Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012 Mammoth Cave National Park is located in Kentucky, the Echo River is found in the Caves deepest level. Do you like trees, well then did you know there are over ten kinds of trees which more than 200 species of birds nest in! And don’t forget the 30 species of animals live in the and out of Cave the cave located in Mammoth Cave National Park. The park offers 12 different tours of the cave. I get headaches underground, what do I do? Well don’t fret about it you can enjoy hiking, bird watching, boating, fishing, and horseback riding too! I have a vacation that lasts for 4 days, I live in Texas and the Park is in Kentucky, where do I stay overnight. The park has a Camping Accommodation, that means visitors may stay in the park at the lodge or in the campgrounds!!!

Area of Mammoth Cave National Park- Mammoth Cave is a name of a National Park in southwestern Kentucky. It was established in 1941. The park preserves a 21,330-ha (52,708-acre) area containing a huge limestone cavern. More than 541 km (336 mi) of charted corridors, the longest system in the world, goes across five levels, the lowest 110 m (360 ft.) underground. The park was designated a World Heritage Site in 1981 and a Biosphere Reserve in 1990.

Rivers of Mammoth Cave National Park- The Echo River is the cave's deepest level. When visitors take a boat ride on this river it allows him or her to appreciate the role that the Echo River has played in creating the picturesque of the rivers secret landscape containing stalactites, stalagmites, and translucent calcite draperies. Over many centuries, mineralized water created the formation known as Frozen Niagara, a fluted drapery of flowstone 23 m (75 ft.) high. In the dry areas of the cavern, walls are adorned with "flowers" of white gypsum. Above ground, the Green River winds through the hilly woodlands, sending its overflow to the subterranean Echo River.

Trees and Animals of Mammoth Cave National Park- The park is forested with a rich variety of hardwoods—hickory, beech, maple, gum, poplar, ash, sycamore, elm, oak, and willow—in which more than 200 species of birds nest in. A wide variety of birds, including hawks, eagles, ospreys, cormorants, cranes, owls, and hummingbirds, can be seen. Nearly 30 species of animals live in the and out of Mammoth Cave. Among the animals observed in the park are crayfish, snakes, bats, foxes, bobcats, mink, opossums, many salamanders, toads, lizards, turtles, and fish that are blind, colorless fish and some are on the size of a finger! Bird watching and fishing are two of the top ten popular aboveground activities!


Tours of the Mammoth Cave National Park- The park offers 12 different tours of the cave, ranging in difficulty from extremely easy; some tours are available only during certain times of the year. A tour may visit different parts of the cave, as well as discontinued mining operations and the site of the tuberculosis hospital!

Popular Aboveground Activities Camping Accommodation and of Mammoth Cave National Park-

Popular aboveground activities are hiking, backpacking, boating, fishing, horseback riding, nature walks, and bird watching. Mammoth Cave National Park has a campsite for you and your family or friends! There are three places to go; campgrounds, the backcountry, and on the river. Do to the many rock in the Mammoth Cave National Park rock collecting is also a popular aboveground and underground active. Limestone- A type of rock, as marble that contains mainly calcium carbonate. Bedrock- the solid rock under the looser materials of the earth's surface. Visitors may stay in the park at the lodge or in the campgrounds. 

Website- http://go.grolier.com/ http://www.lilburnes.org/Students/Caves/Mammoth_Cave_Maria.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101Luna101 (talkcontribs) 21:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)