Talk:Manifest destiny

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Former good article Manifest destiny was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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"Manifest Destiny to promote and defend democracy", seriously?[edit]

"The legacy is a complex one. The belief in an American mission to promote and defend democracy throughout the world, as expounded by Thomas Jefferson and his "Empire of Liberty", and by Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson and George W. Bush, continues to have an influence on American political ideology.[1][2]"

The idea that manifest destiny had anything to do with promoting democracy is nothing more than an opinion which could be likened to saying that "slavery helped elevate the average African". I'm sure I could find a source to support this absurd example.

Thomas Jefferson warned against foreign entanglements. "President Thomas Jefferson extended Washington's ideas in his March 4, 1801 inaugural address: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

George Bush launched a lie-based pre-emptive war...

The entire paragraph is a contradiction filled opinion...

It should be deleted.

Disestablishmentarianism 16:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with your comparison (not that it matters), but given the source is from 1996, I would say that George Bush should be removed from this paragraph, does the source really mention Bush at all? Truly does look like this paragraph needs improvement. 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 17:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Jefferson -- the #1 exponent of expansion in his era--talked about an Empire of Liberty and that idea undepins a lot of 20c-21st c US foreign policy esp in the Middle East. There are many discussions in the scholarly literature-- see for example Charles Philippe David and David Grondin (2006). Hegemony Or Empire?: The Redefinition of Us Power Under George W. Bush. Ashgate. pp. 129–30.  Rjensen (talk) 21:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Since when do we spell democracy O-I-L? Rwenonah (talk) 06:47, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Not done: {{edit semi-protected}} is not required for edits to semi-protected, unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. Page is no longer protected. --ElHef (Meep?) 02:59, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Stanley reference[edit]

I question the fact that the sentence I added on Stanley's opinions of American motives on the War of 1812 has been removed ( apparently he's "not a reliable source). Since I disagree with that assessment, I suggest anyone who disagrees with the addition explain their objections so we can work it out.Rwenonah (talk) 19:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Removal of your addition, here, seems to flout WP:DUE. Your addition had said, "However, Canadian historian George F. G. Stanley [note: wikilink added] tells us that annexation was the main American goal, and that the Indian raids were merely irritations.", citing George F. G. Stanley, 1983, pg. 32 . A citation of the book containing the text of what Stanley tells us is, of course, sufficient to support an assertion that Stanley told us that. A fuller citation would be Stanley, George Francis Gillman (1983). The War of 1812: Land Operations. Macmillan of Canada in collaboration with the National Museum of Man, National Museums of Canada. p. 32. ISBN 978-0-7715-9859-3.  The book isn't previewable online, so I have not been able to confirm that page number 32 there does tell us what you assert that it does. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
My apologies if the citation was insufficient. I copied/pasted it and may not have been adequately careful to properly cite my edition. I would hope it could be restored in modified form. I also assure you that the book does say said sentence where I said it does. Rwenonah (talk) 00:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
The edit summary for the edit by User:Rjensen which removed it said, "Reliable Secondary source on American diplomacy or politics--he tossed in a sentence without sources". The expunged text, however, seems consistent re feelings about annexation by some American players described in the paragraph where it would have appeared and with other supporting sources cited there. This expungement still looks to me like if flouts WP:DUE. Perhaps Rjensen can explain further here (I'll leave a note on his talk page) and perhaps a bit of rewording or clarification can lead to consensus about this. Also, perhaps other interested editors (which I am not in re US/Canada aspects of this article) can contribute their thoughts. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:28, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Stanley is a distinguished historian of the Canadian army. he has never pretended to be a scholar of American diplomacy or politics and has written only scattered sentences on these topics-- one of which was chosen for this article. There are plenty of reliable secondary sources on American diplomacy and politics, but Stanley's book is not one of them. Rjensen (talk) 08:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Stanley's book is a reliable source in every possible way. Just because his book did not focus specifically on " American politics" does not preclude its use in the article. Your opinion that his book is not a reliable secondary source is not sufficient justification for what was, after all, the undiscussed deletion of a referenced sentence - something we're not supposed to do.Rwenonah (talk) 20:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson's "presence"[edit]

"To some 19th‑century Americans his presence rested upon the "whole territory" from the valleys of Oregon to the frontier of the Rio Grande/" This obscure sentence is supported by a citation from a biography of Jackson. But what does it mean?--Wetman (talk) 19:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

sharp eye. I checked and it's not in the book so I dropped it. Rjensen (talk) 20:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Bible vs. school book[edit]

This edit caught my eye. It reverted a pending edit which sought to change "school book" in the caption to "bible", citing http://picturinghistory.gc.cuny.edu/item.php?item_id=180 in the edit summary. I've cited that source in the caption itself in this edit. I do note that the cited source does not actually say "school book". It says, "In her right hand she carries a book—common school—the emblem of education and the testimonial of our national enlightenment, ...", quoting George Crofutt (who had commissioned the painting). A closer look at the painting in a source which I have not cited shows the book's cover to be titled "School Book". Some other sources (e.g., http://aras.org/sites/default/files/docs/00043AmericanProgress.pdf) say "schoolbook". Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:38, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Wtmitchell. This source also calls it a school book. Not sure where the IP editor was getting "bible" from. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:44, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Question to solve[edit]

Can this article solve the following question...

How were the actions of the outsiders examples of their belief in Manifest Destiny?

Qwertyxp2000 (talk) 07:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Stephanson 1996, pp. 112–29 examines the influence of manifest destiny in the 20th century, particularly as articulated by Woodrow Wilson.
  2. ^ Scott, Donald. "The Religious Origins of Manifest Destiny". National Humanities Center. Retrieved 2011-10-26.