Talk:Marathon

Notable marathoners, again

(For an earlier discussion on this same topic, see Talk:Marathon/Archive_1#Notable_marathoners)

Marathon#Other notable marathon runners currently offers no guidelines for inclusion/exclusion other than "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning". In the absence of any real standard, the list will continue to grow and grow as people stop by and see that so-and-so is not on the list. Is it time to split this off to List of marathoners, with inclusion defined as "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning". It could be set-up in a tabular format with an arbitrarily determined number of sentences (two or three?) to highlight each marathoner's major achievements in marathoning. Thoughts? Location (talk) 03:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You have my support. Also, I think the section in this article needs to be more than just a list of names. Each athlete needs at least one sentence on why they are notable. That requirement would go a long way to keep the list to a sensible number. Actually, that should be true even for an independent list. David D. (Talk) 06:04, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

If the list is to include just "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning", that would exclude not only Dane Rauschenberg and Rosie Ruiz but also Bobbi Gibb and Kathrine Switzer who currently appear on the list. My opinion is that "elite" should be struck so that people notable primarily for what they have done in the marathon are included. If necessary, elite marathoners could be separated from non-elite marathoners but that could be a bit subjective in some cases. For those who might be following this discussion, are there any objections to moving this to List of marathoners? Location (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

No objections, lists in articles are generally problematic, and it's clear in this case that it's bloated. Good work. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 20:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I've moved Marathon#Other notable marathon runners to List of marathoners. That list is obviously incomplete in that it does not note some of the big names already listed in the main article here. Location (talk) 18:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

List format

If we split this off, I think the list should have some useful information in it; however, I'm not certain to how to go about doing it. Here is one idea:

Name	Olympic Games gold medalist	World Championships gold medalist	World Marathon Majors winner	Other
Gezahegne Abera	2000	2001
Abel Antón		1997, 1999
Stefano Baldini	2004	[Bronze in 2001, 2003]
Arturo Barrios				[Strike. Not known as a marathon runner.]
Dick Beardsley				Duel in the Sun with Alberto Salazar.[?]

The sortable function is probably not necessary. Should we divide the "Olympic Games" and the "World Championships" columns into "Gold", "Silver", and "Bronze"? Should we divide the "World Marathon Majors" column into "1st", "2nd", or "3rd", or should we just note victories in the WMM series? How do we explain the inclusion of marathoners who have won big races, but nothing at the top levels (e.g. Elfenesh Alemu and Carla Beurskens)? Other ideas? I apologize for making this more complicated than it needs to be. Location (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I made a proposition here. The original table y'have here is cleaner. For multiple victories, medals, etc., these can be listed vertically rather than horizontally. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

And I just realized. Can't just note any marathon winner of any marathon, because of the number of marathons year-round. Each marathon has their list of winners anyways. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

How-to section

Moved this section here per WP:NOTGUIDE. This material here can be presented as "facts". However, it cannot be "instructional". That kind of material is left for folks like Hal Higdon and other runners/coaches giving such advice. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 21:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Section removed from talk page and restored to article (though parts of it are unlikely to remain there long), per discussion below. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I'm glad someone finally did this. Most of the above information is not particularly unique to the marathon, so it could eventually be merged with Running (sport). Location (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
• Disagree. I object to the wholesale removal of this section and view it as an overreaction. As the tag says, the section can be improved by rewriting the how-to content—which is far from constituting the entire content. I contend that all or most of the deleted material (which doesn't belong on this talk page anyway) should be speedily restored to the article; then we can collectively engage in the relatively hard work of bringing it into compliance with WP:NOTGUIDE. Whatever is non-germane to the marathon can go elsewhere, with hatnotes or other linking directing the reader there. Hertz1888 (talk) 03:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • FYI: You've been involved with this article for along time, and I won't revert if you decide to replace it. Location (talk) 04:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I'm inclined to do that, especially if I can count on your collaboration and/or constructive criticism. I won't have major time to devote to the article immediately, but will get to it asap. To start things off, could you point to specific portions you feel clearly exceed the allowable policy limits? Would also welcome hearing from KyuuA4 and others. Hertz1888 (talk) 04:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
      • It's not that I think the material is violating policy, but rather that it belongs in an article about running. A good target article for that material is Running (sport), which I believed had been briefly discussed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics at one time. I'll raise the issue there again. Location (talk) 17:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Instead on focusing on preparation of the marathon, it's best to focus on the marathon itself. Basically, answer the question: "What happens at marathons?" For the sake of reference, it would be a good idea to look at the other sport articles. After all, running is a sport; and marathoning is a specific "event" in that sport. Of course, that is the challenge to this article. With the increase of popularity to marathoning, there's literally a ton of material out there on "how to train for a marathon". Oddly enough, there's nothing on "how to host a marathon" (not that I'm recommending to add that in) as virtually almost every city in the US has one . KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:08, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
• Move. Looking at suggestions of others, Running is a good place to move that material. Granted, that article itself is struggling with the "How to" issue as well under the "injury" section. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Let's not bite a huge chunk out of the article all at once again. I will be continuing to nibble away at the section, with a view to featuring material on what happens at a marathon, and shrinking the rest. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I've initiated a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Athletics#Running and Running (sport) to get more feedback on this. Location (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The instructional how-to advice is gone, with not a single "should" remaining. Thank you for allowing me the honor of reworking the article. Hertz1888 (talk) 00:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Ryan Shay

At the end of the Cardiac risks section is a tiny paragraph about the death of Ryan Shay. Sad and all as it is, it seems out of place to me. Many people have died in marathons. Yes, this guy died (probably) from cardiac issues, but I'm sure many others have too. The is no reference. It is in danger of looking like US centric material, and there is no indication of just why this guy cracks a mention. I reckon it should go. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Y Done (sad and all as it is). Hertz1888 (talk) 13:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Being an elite athlete who died from marathoning, it is worth mentioning per notability. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Someone who can find a proper citation might want to restore the item, in the right context. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it needs citations or references to demonstrate that he was a notable marathoner, and that his particular death was more significant than others. HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Although his death was not more significant than others, he was indeed a notable runner - a USATF champion in multiple events - and probably the most notable individual to die during a marathon. Reporting his death "in the right context" is key as Shay died while running a marathon but not actually from running a marathon. Shay had a pre-existing heart condition and had not even reached the 10K mark, so we need to be careful not to give the impression that it is the distance that puts someone at risk of death. Location (talk) 23:23, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Economic Impact of Marathons

Here's a topic the article doesn't cover at all. Out of curiosity, I started Googling on this subject matter. Eventually, I'll be dumping a bunch of links here for reference. Other relevant information: general statistics, including number of runners per year (particularly US and world-wide). Though, I do not expect much on world wide numbers. Many of the statistics pertaining to marathons fall within the US-only. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Haven't looked at the statistics, but if they really do have a big emphasis on US data, they would would probably be better in an article on the situation in the USA, rather than this global article. HiLo48 (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yea, very much looking to avoid that. Yet, much of that kind of data, such as participant numbers, can be delegated into the various articles on the individual marathons themselves. But, here's a world view set of numbers: http://www.aims-association.org/statistics/World's_Largest_Marathons.html KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 07:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Races seem to be closing sooner, so I am under the impression that we are in the middle of another marathon boom. Has anyone dug-up any references on this? Location (talk) 16:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Misc Stats

http://runningusa.org/node/57770#57771 KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of women

This section is a great addition to the article. I do have a concern regarding the statement: "For challenging the long held tradition of all-male marathon running in the Boston Marathon, in 1967, Kathrine Switzer is regarded as the first woman to officially run a marathon." First, the source of this statement is from Switzer. Secondly, she contradicts herself elsewhere: "My infamous run at the 1967 Boston Marathon is recorded as unofficial...". Her 1967 run is recognized as certainly recognized as a defining moment in the women's marathon, however, I've seen it written that this was simply because there happened to be a great photo that went along with the story. Anyway, there may need to be some clarification here. Location (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The story is summarized here. We could say that due to a fluke she was the first woman to run Boston as a numbered entry, but unofficially. I'll try some rewording. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Multiple marathons

I hate to see the dumb Paquin/Cummings debate spilling over into Wikipedia, and I think mention of both should be stricken from the article since age group records (and club records at that!) are fairly insignificant. To recap for those not familiar, there are two clubs with very similar criteria:

• 50 States Marathon Club
• 50 States & D.C. Marathon Group

One club requires a member to run a marathon that touches soil in DC, but this is a bone of contention for some in that the rules are different for the clubs (e.g. the first states that Marine Corp Marathon is a Virigina marathon because it starts and finishes in VA, whereas the other states it can count either way because it passes through DC). Some of the finer points: Paquin did 50 states at a slightly younger age than Cummings did her 50 states or her 50 states plus DC. Cummings apparently used the Marine Corp Marathon as her DC marathon, which would be a VA marathon by the other group's standard. Cummings also "ran" the Missoula Marathon on crutches with a broken hip - her reported time of 10 hours 39 minutes was four hours past the cutoff necessary for an official result. Sheesh! Do we really need to incorporate all of this into the article to ensure that all POVs are represented? -Location (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Thankfully, I'm oblivious to this "debate". Somehow, distinguishing between the two is moot; and a debate on the differences in "achievement" is silly. After all, neither group includes U.S. territories like Guam, for example. Just imagine a 3rd 50 states club, which does include US territories. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Best marathon in the world

I've removed the comment regarding the Stockholm Marathon being ranked the best marathon in the world by the Ultimate Guide to International Marathons. First of all, I have another reference stating that the authors of that book have consistently voted the Big Sur Marathon as the best marathon in the world. Secondly, "best" is open to interpretation and every expert will have their own opinion. Thirdly, without any explanation of why a particular race is "the best", it's information that doesn't really help the reader. Location (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Multiple Marathons section pruning / adding section on competitive marathoners

IMO, these multiple marathon runners are little more than publicity stunts. The fact that the general public is more familiar with Dean whoever than the fact that Shalane Flanagan finishing 2nd @ NY is sad. The fact that this article has a long section on "multiple marathoners" and no prose section of famous marathoners is sad. I probably won't do more than whine, but it would be nice if a new section about notable, competitive marathoners could be added, and the multiple one trimmed. Thank you --CutOffTies (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I've heard serious marathoners say: "If you can't go fast, go long." The MM-thing is the new version: "If you can't go fast, do a lot of short ones." The notable marathoners already have articles that highlight their achievements, however, working some of them into the historical context of the event would be nice. The MM section appears to use quite a few primary sources, too. That should be rectified. Location (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Image for the 1896 marathon

1896 Olympic marathon

If anyone can find a better/older source for the image on the right, it would be very helpful in identifying the runners and providing a more accurate caption. LIFE magazine calls this image "Marathon Runners in Training in 1896". "Training" is the key word. Location (talk) 20:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

From my own little investigations, it appears that none of the three are either Spiridon Louis, Kharilaos Vasilakosany or any of the foreign runners. Therefore, it cannot be an image from the race itself. as there was at no point three leading Greek runners, who are clearly some 15/20 seconds ahead of the pack behind. I would suggest that this entirely matches up with LIFE's caption of it being a training run. SFB 20:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

FYI: I would need to get the translator out to figure out these captions at our counterpart Wikis: Kharilaos Vasilakos, Ioannis Lavrentis. Location (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The Danish one says: "The marathon run at the 1896 Olympic Games with Vasilakos in the centre". The German one says "The 1896 Olympic marathon (identity of the three runners is unknown)." Not a great deal of help... SFB 16:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find other images on Vasilakos to verify that assertion. Unfortunately, this image (along with what I believe to be misinformation) is being grabbed by the other Wikis, then being spread all over the place. Location (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Per the Getty Images website: "1896: Three athletes in training for the marathon at the Olympic Games in Athens" by Burton Holmes. Location (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Louis Marks??

The article contains a picture and caption of Louis Marks. Who??!! There is no other reference to him in the article and there is nothing about him in Wikipedia as a whole. Can we take this image off as it adds little to the article as a whole. --hydeblake (talk) 09:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

FYI there is a bit of information about him and the race here Chicago_Marathon#History --CutOffTies (talk) 10:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

And yet there's nothing about him on this page, except this one photo that says something that doesn't make sense, unless you look at an unlinked page and no page about him at all. Surely there should either be a reference to him on the page and a page about him, or a different photo! --hydeblake (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I would be OK with removing this image from the page since it appears elsewhere and there is nothing terribly remarkable about Marks to indicate that it should also be here. Location (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Marathon world record progression

For the Wikipedia regulars, this article and Marathon world record progression will need to be watched due to Mutai's mark at Boston which was set on a non-record eligible course. Location (talk) 16:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Haile Gebrselassie/Geoffrey Mutai

What is the deal with the comment under the Haile Gebrselassie image: Geoffrey Mutai's mark is NOT a world record as it was set on a point-to-point course with drop.? If this is true then the Mutai record should be struck. 195.241.156.43 (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Mutai's mark is the fastest marathon ever run, but it will not considered a "world record" by the IAAF. Today's race is a perfect example of why the IAAF rules regarding records are in place. There is huge net drop at Boston, plus the point-to-point nature of the course allows them to take advantage of the tailwind. Location (talk) 16:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree! I have tried to delete the entry of the Boston time on a number of times today - but someone keeps posting it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Please make sure the information matches the references. The IAAF does include Boston marks in their top list (which is different that their world records lists), so Mutai's mark will probably be there within the next 24 to 48 hours. Location (talk) 17:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course the next question is if the wiki entry should be the fastest ten times or the fastest ten people. Haile Gebrselassie has the two top times as of now and one other in the top ten. So should the list be the actual ten fastest times (as per IAAF standards list)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The list is the fastest ten people. Given that the IAAF has already updated yesterday's results from London, they will likely update it with the Boston results in the next 24-48 hours. Location (talk) 01:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Then I would suggest no one edit the list until we see the listings at the IAAF site get updated. I would also suggest that something be used to indicate the current WR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 06:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with those suggestions! Location (talk) 13:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

lol, thanks 72.161.153.228 (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Multiple Marathons...A little self serving

The Multiple Marathons section appears to be quite self-serving. How many of these "records" are notable? Additionally, there are some "claims" in there that cannot be verified. The section should be cut significatly to only those notable incidents and actually dicuss more in detail the concept of multiple marathons. Arzel (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I concur. Hammersbach (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless someone really objects I am going to start weeding out some of these “multiples”. The “multiples” I am starting with are those that deal with claims of running the distance vs. actually running in sanctioned races on certified courses. I agree with Arzel that there is an issue of verifiability. Hammersbach (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Health risks

I'm interested in learning more about the health risks associated with running other than minor sprains. Does anyone know or is familiar with cancer and degenerative illness rates of runners versus non runners? Are there any diseases that runners are more suseptable to?Shimmeryshad27 (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimmeryshad27 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Mixed fields

Just read about the IAF disregarding times set in mixed fields. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/20/marathon-iaaf-womens-world-records

Should we include this somewhere in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.85.168 (talk) 10:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

It could be very useful. Hertz1888 (talk) 10:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Once the IAAF puts something in writing that we can all access, the best place would likely be Marathon world record progression#Criteria for record eligibility. Women's mixed field performances, just like performances at Boston, are still legitimate. They are just not eligible for world record consideration. Location (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Calories and kilocalories

The way in which the food industry misuses calories and kilocalories is legendary - they have used the word "calorie" when they really mean a kilocalorie (In physics and chemistry 1 calorie = the energy required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by 1°C). When doing calculations, it is best to ignore calories and work enmtirely with joules, then back-calculate if neccessary. I visited [ http://firstyear.chem.usyd.edu.au/calculators/food_energy.shtml this site] and worked out my daily energy requirements. The answer came out as 7678 kJ (or 7.8 MJ) which is not far off the 8 MJ mentioned in the article. Back-calculating using the factor {{{1}}}, one gets back to about 1800 kcal. For the record, EU food labeling regulations requires that one uses the physics and chemistry definition of the calories, not the food industry definition, so what the food industry used to call "a calorie" must be labelled as a "kcal".

I don't know what the US food industry uses, but the use of joules (or rather MJ in this case) is in line with WP:MOSNUM. Martinvl (talk) 08:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Merge - The Oprah line

I propose that the information at The Oprah line be merged into a section here. The bulk of the article is devoted to discussion of the increase and effect of slow marathon runners. Such an issue would be better treated (and more broadly discussed) here rather than via a relatively obscure and American-centric term. SFB 20:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No. Let's not sully this article by including what you refer to a "relatively obscure" term. Hammersbach (talk) 03:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Radcliffe and Makau pictures

Holder of the women's marathon world record, Paula Radcliffe

Patrick Makau is recognized by the International Association of Athletics Federations as the current holder of the men's world record

Temporary remove. Will return images into the article. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)