Talk:Marche

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Pronounciation?[edit]

mahr-KEH or mahr-SHEH? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.55.52.3 (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

"marquee" is a bit confusing as its final syllable is the sound of "key" whereas in "marche" it should be the sound of "kay" as in first syllable of the word "cane". Accent is also on first syllable of "marche", not last syllable as in "marquee". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.135.1 (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi everybody. The right pronunciation of Le Marche is [le ˌmarke]; in English it sounds like leh-mahr-keh. 93.149.186.184 (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Marche and Marca[edit]

Marche is a prural noun in italian because the name refers to the several Marche (a border territory of the Holy Roman Empire ruled by a Marchese) i the region not only to the Marca Anconitana or Marca di Ancona. --Brandoale 09:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

External link[edit]

I removed ItalianVisits.com since, as can be seen, it's a small and very inferior site: a single unfinished page with 4 small uncaptioned photos and 4 links, the purpose of which is to draw people to "I.V. Tours".

I replaced it by a selection of the best sites available. The five provinces maintain excellent sites as well, with at least some pages in English; and there are several dozen small sites in English much better than the above. I didn't add my own site because not sufficiently broad — although it has 28 pages of text and 59 large photos, and is thus considerably better than the spam I removed. Bill 09:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Can we get better links added? In the summer I collate as many Le Marche events as I can find online and translate them and put link to original site. As summer is just starting there are only around 20 festival on the site but as summer prg oresses this increases when I add events that are not online by attending pre-summer pro-loco events and scanning promotion literature and adding them to the site. Last year there were around 40-50 events promoted including large jazz festivals, opera and local festas from each region in Le Marche - Le Marche Festivals - I added this and it was deleted - fair enough I understand that you have guidelines. Can you let me know why site was deleted out of interest? If it's not broad enough or focuses too much on southern Le Marche then I am still collating more walks to put on youtube to add to site, widening the number of beaches and villages on the site so hopefully it will meet the requirements at some poing in the future.

But surely you can find links that are more informative than this Regional Guide to Le Marche

Rebuttal to Bill Thayer[edit]

Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so. ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria. My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can.

If you look at the section on Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area. You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available. Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale. We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.

Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day. I just spent 15 days in Umbria, for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito. Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in Tuscany. Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.

ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business. If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy. So, having information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam". If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region. Even in the various regional sections of Italy where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there are links to sites that promote and facilitate travel. Should all of these be removed? And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) reasonably well-defined policy?

You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators. Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides. This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.

I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.

Regards Vian Andrews Vancouver, BC July 28, 2005

Northern Italy?[edit]

Why Marche is considered a region in Northen Italy? As far as I know, together with Tuscany, Lazio, Umbria and Abruzzo, it is part of Central Italy. --Cantalamessa 23:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Bravo, amico — now why didn't you make the change? I've been watching this "error" (a piece of vandalism introduced in Dec 04) to see how long it would take to be caught. Qui, si canta spesso non la messa, ma il truffo.... Bill 00:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Merged content from Foglia[edit]

Kville105125 01:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC) Merged content to this page to eliminate a stub, and expand this page.

English name[edit]

After a brief search, I found that the most often used designation for this region in English language is "the Marches". This is evident from searching Google Books and also the standard Google. Because of this, and because of the low activity in this talk page (the last discussion dates from 2007) I decided to be BOLD and carry out the change myself. Of course, everyone is welcome to discuss the question.--Le Petit Modificateur Laborieux (talk) 14:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I definitely think that the most used name for the region in English nowadays is "Marche". Therefore I don't agree with PML's changes. --Checco (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
As only PML has stated its preference for "Marches" and I oppose such a change, I'll replace "the Marches" with "Marche". As no new consensus was formed, it's better to stick to the previous one. --Checco (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi all. Generally, I think it's better to use truly English names (e.g. "Germany" not "Deutschland", except when there is now an overwhelming consensus that the once-in-use English name has passed into the history books for any number of reasons (e.g. "Beijing", not "Peking" and "Zimbabwe", not "Rhodesia". Therefore, I think I would have agreed with PML's change. HOWEVER, that is not my real point - my primary concern is the first line, where it states that "The english name is Marches." We need to have it one way or the other - either the English name is Marches, and the article should be moved, or the English name is Marche, which would mean that the title of the article is correct, but that opening sentence should be moved. Can someone who has more knowledge on the topic than me resolve this? AshleyMorton (talk) 15:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi. While there remain a few British English speakers who persist in refering to the region as "The Marches" (notice that it must have the definite article), most English speakers, particularly US English speakers, now refer to the region as "The Marche" or, often just "Marche". All the main tourist resources both printed and web-based, including those created by English speakers living in the region, invariably use either "Marche" or "The Marche". I humbly suggest "The Marches" be kept for those in Wales alone... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sancristo (talkcontribs) 19:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding official anthem[edit]

I think that someone should add the official anthem of The Marche to the infobox of the Region (much as it has been done for British territories, for instance). Since 2007, the official anthem of Marche is the "Inno delle Marche" (see on the official site of the region and on Wikipedia's List of anthems). Incidentally, the same change to the infobox should be done also for the other two Italian Regions which have an official anthem: Sicily (anthem: Madreterra) and Aosta Valley (anthem: Montagnes Valdôtaines). --82.50.124.184 (talk) 04:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


Name[edit]

As said previously above (here and here) the name we should use here needs sorting out.
Is it to be in Italian or English? Singular or plural? With or without the definite article?
I’ve no particular preference, except for consistency; the text as it stands is a mixture of each, due to this not being resolved But the title is "Marche", and most of the text is singular, so I’ve standardized it on that, until it is resolved.
Any thoughts? Moonraker12 (talk) 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I reported the English name. I think we should change the title from "Marche" in "Marches" similar to "Tuscany", "Lombardy", "Piedmont" and the other Italian regions that have English name. This, among other things, solve the problem "singular or plural". In tourist brochures the names of the regions is rarely translated, but (I think) this is not a reason not to use the English name in an encycplopedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Giespe (talkcontribs) 2 February 2011
I’m not so sure. Historically they were called the Marches, of course, but my feeling is that this has pretty much disappeared from modern English: more so, even, than ‘Latium’ for ‘Lazio’. (And relatively few of our readers will know what a ‘march’ in this sense is.) Partly, of course, it’s a matter of taste: I would move Apulia to Puglia, but Livorno to Leghorn. And keep this at Marche. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Reply to Giespe
It’s true Marche translates to "Marches" in English; also that English often has its own version of placenames around the world. But they are seldom the same thing; it’s far more usual to be a corruption of the local name ("Tuscany" for Toscana, for example, or "Sardinia" for Sardegna) And in most cases the local spelling is preserved, just given an idiosyncratic prounciation. Umbria (if I’m not mistaken) would translate as “Shadowland” in English, but is referred to as "Umbria" none the less (though it’d be pronounced "Umm-brea", as likely as not).
Your reference to the Encyclopaedia Britannica shows what the translation is, but it does use the name "Marche" thoughout, which suggests the name in English is "Marche" (though it's likely to be pronounced "Marsh", or "Marshay").
Also, I notice the EB renders it singular, and without the definite article, which is maybe what we should do here. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Ian
I think you are right that it has changed over the years. I have an atlas from 1965 which renders it "Marches" (it also has "Latium" and "Apulia") , but another from 1994 which has "Marche" (and "Lazio" and "Puglia"). So I'm guessing (with the EB ref) that that is currently the preferred English term. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I did the following: I searched on google Marche Italy I got about 644,000 results; I searched "the Marches" italy –Marche and I got about 1,510,000 results; I searched "the Marches" italy -Marche –welsh and I got about 1,460,000 result. This easy search makes me realize that the name most used in modern English in "The Marches", as it was years ago. Giespe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giespe (talkcontribs) 17:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I’m not sure what this proves; I searched for "The Marches Italy" and got a shed-load of hits, too, but most of them (9 out of 12 on the first page) actually go to "Marche". And google searches aren’t really conclusive, it’s better to have reliable sources, such as reference books, gazetteers, guide books and the like.
Anyway, the purpose of my original question was to get a range of opinion; I can see your preference, as I can Ian’s; perhaps we should see if there are any other opinions to be voiced. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
PS It would be a good idea if you signed your posts; you can do it by typing four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~.Moonraker12 (talk) 14:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
PPS I've combined the "Name again" and "Name" sections, for clarity; I trust that's OK with everyone. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

"The Italian name Le Marche requires the article". This is wrong. It requires the article, depending on the contest, as well as most country or region names in Italian. If needed, the article is always lower case, i.e. it is not part of the name (unlike the article in town names as L'Aquila, La Spezia, Il Cairo). Moreover, the official name has no article.[1] Examples: i cittadini di Marche, Abruzzo, Molise;[2] una località al confine tra Marche e Abruzzo;[3] Regione Marche,[4] and so on. One more example from it.wiki: it:Terremoto di Umbria e Marche. Of course, in most contests an article is needed, but this is quite common in Italian. In adverbial complements of place, e.g., we have: in Abruzzo, in Molise, in Piemonte vs. nelle Marche, but also nel Lazio, nel Veneto, nel Salento, negli Stati Uniti, nella Repubblica Ceca: do these nouns require an article too? --Erinaceus (talk) 15:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC) P.S. I am native Italian and live in the Marche(s).

October 2011 page move[edit]

I am a bit puzzled by the move to the title Marches on a number of grounds. Firstly there was already a discussion on this talk page which I would have expected a page-mover to engage with before doing the deed. Secondly because the natural title would seem to be The Marches rather than the form without a definite article. And thirdly because the mover treats the title as if it were in the singular: ‘The Marches was nominally part of the Papal States’, for instance, which reads very oddly to me. I see that the British Foreign & Commonwealth Office uses Piedmont (rather than Piemonte), Lombardy (rather than Lombardia), Tuscany (rather than Toscana), Sicily (rather than Sicilia) and Sardinia rather than Sardegna), but Marche rather than [The] Marches. I tend to think that the FCO has the contemporary English usage right here. Accordingly I will revert the move and suggest that a consensus is reached on this page before moving it again. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, the discussion was closed about 4 months ago and I decided to be BOLD, secondly The Marches is incorrect, even the Britannica Encyclopedia put the page on the "M" summary" and the "T" of "the Marche" [5], [6], is not a capital letter, this is en.wiki where geography must use the proper English exonym, not the Italian one, if you read "Marche" name you pronunce it in English, not in Italian, so "Marche" is wrong because is the Italian name, I don't care about the FCO, I care about its proper name in English as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) and per WP:naming conventions (use English), in italian the name is not and never was "Le Marche" (a Britannica mistake) but simply "Marche" at the opposite of "La Spezia" or "L'Aquila" (curiously the Britannica use simply "Spezia" without "L'"[7]) that use the article as part of the noun. I am highly knowledgeable about this "problem" because I live there. About your third point: it was a mistake, of course the correct sentence is ‘The Marches were nominally part of the Papal States’. At the moment the page and both names used on the geobox are totally wrong, last but non least the section: (pronounced [ˈmarke]) is not valid for English speaker, it's almost like writing Italy (pronunciation Italya) simply ridiculous. Anyway here some sources standard Google, than about some governamental websites here you have 22.000 results with "Marche"+"Italy", [22.000 results with "Marche"+"Italy"]. Even the European Union is still using "Marches" [8], then reasearching on google books in English "italy"+"the marches" we got 53.000 results, "italy"+"marche"+"region" (because was finding something else) we got 11.100 results and many of them are written by Italians. So you can raname the page as you want like The Marches but "Le Marche" is completely wrong as stated before by User:Erinaceus, and Marche is once again wrong because is the Italian plural form of Marca wich in English is -> March or Mark and its plural counterpart is Marches (see from point 2.) --Nicola Romani (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

A small point on the above rather poorly argued comment - it is no surprise that "53,000 results" appeared for "the marches" simply because "marches" is the English plural of a "march" (as in a military march - "una marcia" in Italian). That is why arguments based on Google searches are frequently meaningless, as in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.46.64.66 (talk) 16:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


I repeat: I searched on google "the Marches" Italy –Marche" and not simply "The Marches"!!! Read more carefully my previous post, please--Giespe (talk) 09:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)!