Talk:Mark A. Gabriel

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Untitled[edit]

Please bare with me, I am working on this article. But, if you can help me out with correct formatting or any further information, it would be greatly appreciated! Thank you all in advance. Posted by 82.37.139.181 (talk · contribs) also editing as 213.120.114.66 (talk · contribs)

I've done a copy edit and removed most of the material, as it was a POV personal essay. This looks like a vanity page written by Mark Gabriel. Would the author please read our content policies before making any further edits: Wikipedia:Vanity page, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Cite sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Also note Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) June 30, 2005 22:49 (UTC)
I've also removed the NPOV tag as it's not clear who put it on, and there's no mention of it on talk. SlimVirgin (talk) June 30, 2005 22:55 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

Fjorn, could you supply third-party sources for your edits, please. Also, we don't include Dr. in the first reference to the name. We don't have a reference for his having obtained a PhD either. SlimVirgin (talk) June 30, 2005 23:41 (UTC)

I have severe doubts that this person is what he claims. If he was really a professor at Al-Azhar and this is his photo, what is the point of hiding his real name? The whole story stinks. --Zero 12:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The whole thing looks like a hoax. --Ian Pitchford 13:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If it is a hoax, why is it a well selling book in Amazon.com?Guy Montag 21:33, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The book exists and Amazon is selling it. Amazon does not investigate the backgrounds of authors. --Zero 23:46, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The very fact that his books have reached the top 10,000 if not 25,000 books sold on amazon means that they are probably quite notable and worthy of documentation. Irrespective of what you think of the book's idea's, or provenance. Klonimus 00:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
See also: James Frey. --mordicai. 19:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I personally dont believe it to be a hoax. But whether it be or not, one cannot deny what he stated in the book... The fact that if you take the life of Jesus as described in the Bible, versus the life of Muhammad as described in the Quran, you'll find profound differences, and that Jesus is truly all about love and peace, and he died on the cross for us all to prove it. I say this, because I also have a testimony to tell. My grandmother of Buddhist background also have a testimony to tell. For the sake of this discussion I will not go into detail, but that there are countless times I have messed up in my life, and have experienced the love of God speaking to me through the Bible. I am no PhD, no book-seller, but a sinner. Yet God's love, compassion, mercy worked with me like a loving father would. Having this personal relationship with God through Jesus is something most wonderful.. that I truly, truly hope everyone can find it in themselves to receive and experience.

How nice. Why are you advertizing on a encyclopedia?

Deleted Content For Discussion[edit]

File:MarkAGabriel.jpg

Mark A. Gabriel (born 1957) is the pseudonym of an anonymous author who claims to be an Egyptian Islamic scholar and former lecturer at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, where he allegedly taught Islamic culture and history and served as an imam of a mosque near Cairo in the late 1980s. The author is said to have converted to Christianity after obtaining a Ph.D. in Islamic history from Al-Azhar University. Gabriel claims to have a doctorate in Christian education and a Masters degree in world religion from Florida Christian University in Orlando (an unaccredited US diploma mill) and to be founder and president of Hope for the Nations, a "missions organization dedicated to bringing the Good News to the entire world, including Muslims and Jews" (Gabriel, 2003, p. 220). Gabriel prays "for the entire world, including Muslms and Jews, to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ (2003, p. 187).

Gabriel is said to have fled Egypt after being fired from the university and arrested by the Egyptian secret police, who allegedly tortured him, after he questioned his religion. He fled to South Africa and now lives in the United States, where he travels and lectures about Islam.

The books published under the name Gabriel are promoted by Stephen Strang's Strang Communications. Strang believes that "Y'eshua is getting us ready for his return. And I believe that Y'eshua is getting us ready, all of us, the Gentile church included, for the great influx of believers. Of Jewish people whose eyes are finally opened to their need for a Messiah." [1]

He is not really anonymous, because he shows his face on Youtube. Do you think a person who never been studying in Al Azhar, never been imam, lies when he says he was able to recite the Quran in extenso, could fake it? I don't know how to fake that kind of things...

Use of the Qur'an[edit]

The books published under Gabriel's name typically feature novel translations of the Qur'an, for example

Gabriel 4:89[edit]

Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back
(from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wher-
ever you find them.... (Gabriel, 2002, p. 33)

The first sentence above, "Those who reject..." is Gabriel's commentary. The quote from the verse cited begins at, "If they turn back..." It is taken word-for-word from The Noble Qur'an in the English Language by Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan, a widely-used recent translation distributed for free by the government of Saudi Arabia. It is not his own translation, nor is it "novel". The only book of his I have seen (Islam and the Jews) cites this translation frequently.

It is his interpretations that are controversial (in Western circles anyway), not the Qur'an citations. His presentation of Islamic belief (ignoring his Christian-colored commentary) agrees with what you can hear broadcast from the loudspeaker of a mosque during the Friday khutba in many Arab countries.--RandallC 13:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Qur'an 4:89 (Yusuf Ali)[edit]

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be
on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until
they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn
renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any
case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Website[edit]

The Gabriel website is run by Bradlee Sargent an American-born computer programmer who "saw the importance of evangelizing Muslims in 1983, when he lived in Saudi Arabia" [2]. Sargent is a member of the Arabic Evangelical Church organized by Syrian-born Arab Christian Peter Shadid [3], which aims to guide the Muslims of Central Florida "away from the Islamic teachings of Mohammed and toward Christianity".

Books published under the pseudonym Mark A. Gabriel[edit]

External links[edit]

See also[edit]

Picture copyright[edit]

I wonder how come the picture of Mark A. Gabriel was uploaded without any respect to the copyright laws. Please, refer to Wikipedia:Image use policy#Rules of thumb. The picture has been removed from the article. Cheers -- Svest 18:21, September 12, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Identity / Name is not a pseudonym[edit]

The man changed his name to the current name which is Mark A. Gabriel. So, Mark A. Gabriel is the new real name for this man.

This is from the introduction page of "Islam and Terrorism";

The NAME YOU see on the cover of this book is not the Muslim name that was given to me by my parents in Egypt. However, I would like to say that I have no desire to deceive Muslims, Christians or anyone else about my name in order to benefit my self. Rather, I have chosen my name for the following reasons.

  • Reason #1

After I left Egypt, I went to South Africa and was discipled in Christ there. When I began ministering to Muslims in South Africa, I became very well known by my Muslim name. For four years radical Muslims pursued me diligently. I had to hide all the time and change my residency from one city to another almost on a monthly basis. When I wrote my first book in South Africa, my pastor and I discussed whether I should put my name on it. We decided to change my name for security reasons.

  • Reason #2

I was not comfortable living my Christianity by a Muslim name. I felt my Muslim name was part of my old man. When a person called me by that name, it reminded me of my old life. I want to live by a Christian name.

  • Choice of name

I chose the first name of Mark because Mark was a writer of the Gospels. Mark was also the first Christian who went to Egypt with the Good News. When Jesus sent the seventy out from Jerusalem, Mark brought the gospel to the city of Alexandria in Egypt. I chose the last name of Gabriel because Gabriel was the angel who brought the good news of the coming of the Messiah to the virgin Mary. Also this was the name of the first Christian person I met in South Africa who took me into his home and invited me to his church.

This proves that this man is not a hoax, and is not more than one author. --Gramaic | Talk 09:51, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proof is evidence, not assertion. Isn't this elementary? --Ian Pitchford 19:22, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ian, I'm kind of curious. What sources says such a foolish thing as "Mark A. Gabriel is the pseudonym of an author or authors"? Because, to me, this statement is highly POV and sounds like gossip. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 23:16, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, there's still no unambiguous evidence that there is an author called Mark A Gabriel. I'll let you know if I get any response at all to the queries I've sent to his publisher, website owner or university. --Ian Pitchford 08:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. In the meantime, I've made the opening statement more NPOV. I've changed it to;

"Mark A. Gabriel (born 1957) is the author who publish books that are critical of Islam, with the support of Christian organizations in the United States. There have been accusations that the name Mark A. Gabriel is only a pseudonym of an author or authors."

I hope this statement pleases everyone. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 00:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I know that the article has said there has been no independent source that actually looked in to his claims about his time as a lecturer at al-Azhar but this man's own website has a "rebuttal" to an article that questions his credentials, shouldn't it be included? Also, for someone more proficient in Arabic, al-Azhar does have their library online and if truly wrote a dissertation, it should be listed there. Jayran 07:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Link please? I can't believe this article has stood so long, without a verification of identity. Ford MF 16:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article came from a Norweigan newspaper and Gabriel claims to "answer" his critics in a response on his website - here's the link - [4]. Mark Gabriel makes some fantastic claims that is amazing that no outside source has been able to confirm - an imam and lecturer at Al-Azhar is a noteworthy position so I have strong doubts that no one could confirm this. In my opinion, he is nothing more than a Muslim verson of Alberto Rivera, another Evangelical fraud that "exposed" the truth about another religion, in his case, Catholicism. Here is the link to Al-Azhar's library - [5] If nobody confirms from outside resources Gabriel's claims, I will soon edit the page to reflect that. Jayran 17:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please do. If there is no outside corroboration, I wholly support this action. Ford MF 18:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking of waiting several days before pruning this article, but I don't think I will. The more I try to research this man, the more incredulous I become. The article he claims was in Vart Land was never in the newspaper but was published at [6]. Vart Land only published one article with anything about Mark Gabriel and it was a review of his book by an islamophobic blog writer - [7]. The politician mentionned in the article comes from a party that the BBC among others labels "far-right". Everytime I try to find info about this guy, I only get information published by him or his webmaster. Nothing about this man is verifiable until he started publishing books in English and even then, everything is still murky. I would urge any editor with verifiable info about this guy from an independent source to please provide them - it is sorely needed. Jayran 19:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've only just become familiar with this subject, but it seems to me that if there was a shed of evidence to support any one of his claims, we would be able to find it, especially giving the online indexes cited several times on this talk page. I just want to mention my full support of a very critical approach to this subject; someone claiming something is true (viz. the "sources" cited by others) is not evidence for it being true. --mordicai. 20:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article already has a critical approach: nothing "Gabriel" claims is taken as fact, hence the section on his life story is headed "Gabriel's account of his life" and is properly sourced to his own volume. --Ian Pitchford 21:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a sample from the old version that Ian Pitchford reverts "On hearing that Mustafa had "forsaken Islamic teachings" the authorities of Al Azhar expelled him from the University on 17 December, 1991 and asked for him to be released from the post of Imam in the mosque of Amas Ebn Malek in Giza city. The Egyptian secret police then seized Mustafa and placed him in a cell without food and water for three days, after which he was tortured and interrogated for four days before being transferred to Calipha prison in Cairo and released without charge a week later." This is hardly a skeptical approach to the man. Wikipedia policy on biographies says to use a third party source - there are no sources for his account and it also says to delete it if unsourced. Just about any biography here of a living person uses reports from the media for such basic info as this. It also faces problems with self-publication as policy states that, "it is not contentious;" and "there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it." - Both of these are in strong doubt when it comes to Mark Gabriel. Jayran 23:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no doubt at all that those are his claims because the section is sourced to his biography. There is no problem here because the section is clearly headed as his own account, is sourced only to his own account and the article say "Gabriel's former name has not been revealed and his biography has not been independently verified." What could be clearer? You, on the other hand, keep removing information on his educational background showing that his claims are inconsistent, i.e, you make him sound more credible, not less. Furthermore the allegation that the information is false is sourced only to a partisan Norwegian website. This is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. From my own reading I would guess that "Gabriel" has never even been to Egypt, but that's my opinion. --Ian Pitchford 11:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This should clear up some of the doubts that have been raised on his background and existence.

Thanks CltFn, this should be enough proof that Gabriel is not a fake person. This proves that all these stories about Mark Gabriel being a hoax is nothing but lies and gossip. --Gramaic | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 07:23, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly makes the anti gabriallites look pretty stupid. Klonimus 07:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You can also get a DVD interview with him and Dr. Dave Reagan of Lamb and Lion Ministries - here and here
He still writes under his pseudonym Mark A. Gabriel for the same reasons at the top of this post. I have doubts about his credentials because if this is the case, then now his face is all over the media so any of those that "pursued him diligently", or those of whom he worked for and with at Al-Azhar, could easily recognise his face and put two and two together. As it is, no-one has done this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.24.33 (talk) 08:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Hmm- I just watched an interview with the man on Youtube. Shouldn't you take out the part about him not existing? Seems a bit like pointless hearsay really —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 (talk) 15:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vfd vote failed[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mark_A._Gabriel. --Woohookitty 11:06, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit[edit]

I've done another copy edit of this troubled article. I removed the section on novel interpretations of the Qua'ran because it smacked of OR, and the "background as an imam" section because a source was requested months ago and none has been produced. Otherwise, I more or less left everything intact, but tried to word it more factually and improve the narrative flow. I can't get into his website. I wonder whether it's been taken down. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

His website stopped responding some time ago. I suspect this is the last we will hear of this person, who almost certainly never really existed. The entire story from start to finish has "fake" written all over it. --Zero 21:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder what we should do about the article. Someone's writing his books, because they're on sale through Amazon, though one reviewer said they read as though they were written by a ten-year-old. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Leave the article the way it is. Mark A. Gabriel is a real person, he wrote the books himself. Slow or no replies doesn't necessarily mean that your dealing with fake people. --Gramaic | Talk 02:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Zero, Gramiac. There's something not right about this. The details are too vague for a start. Questioned his faith and was therefore fired and tortured in Cairo. But Cairo is relatively liberal. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but tortured for what exactly, and how did he escape? Also, there are no sources that don't regurgitate the website/publisher's blurb. I'm also suspicious of the way he's "Dr. Mark A. Gabriel" everywhere. People with PhDs tend not to trumpet it at every opportunity; some do, admittedly, but it's unusual and another mark against him. When you say he's a real person, can you say how you know that? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
To the anon: I'm deleting "claimed" from "to reflect his claimed new religious identity," because it's poor English and POV. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:14, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can we quit tagging everything in this article with "he says"[edit]

Tagging a " he says" to every major statement in this article is a ridiculous rhetorical device designed to raise doubt over the credibility of the subject of the article. This has little to do with an encyclopedic article so this will have to be cleaned up.--CltFn 03:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's mostly necessary, given that we don't even know that he exists. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Doesnt that seem to be a bit of a stretch?. The person in the picture looks real enough to me and his books did not get written by themselves. --CltFn 03:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
We don't know who it's a photograph of, who writes the books, or that they're written by one person. Nothing about Gabriel checks out; there are no independent third-party sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can see he seems to check out quite easily , look at a random google hit here. [8]--CltFn 03:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's Strang Communications. All the Google hits lead back to websites run by the same group of people, or information taken directly from those websites. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to state anything about him as fact, then find an independent, third-party source (not him, his agent, or his publisher, or anyone who just copies what they say); in the meantime, you might want to review WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NOR. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
OK fair enough , Slim , I will try to see if I can get ahold of some verifyable sources then. --CltFn 03:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
While I would like to see more credible sources used, Ian Pitchford's attempt to cast doubt in every other sentace of this article was excessive,innapropriate, and unconstructive. Klonimus 08:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Stop inserting those he claims this he claims that[edit]

It not how we do it in Wikipedia See here for acceptable and unacceptable uses.--CltFn 16:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diploma Mill[edit]

After visiting FCU's website, I object to the use of the term "diploma mill" in the article. Diploma mill is a very negative term. Many religious schools choose not to be accredited by one of the major regional accrediting bodies in the United States. Bob Jones University is a major example. Cordoba University and their school of Islamic sciences is another unaccredited school. Usually, diploma mills require an unusually low amount of coursework. Until this is proven, I have removed the diploma mill reference from the article. JeremyBicha 04:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Answering Mark A. Gabriel[edit]

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=5769—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.20.157 (talk • contribs)

As a recent convert to Islam I say how dare he question the word of Allah. Islam is the one true religion and Mohammad (may he rest in peace) is the messenger of Allah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.155.110.74 (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How dare he question? Why not? People are entitled to speak their minds, and say what they have to say. You can't attack people just because their points of views differ from yours. So, please have an open heart and mind, and don't be hard headed. Always leave room for dialogue!

Here's a link that all Muslim's should take a look at:

islam-christianity.net

Praise Jesus Christ, the Son of God! --140.144.121.17 (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

THIS IS A DISCUSSION PAGE FOR THE ARTICLE, NOT A PLACE FOR PROSTELYTIZING! Hellbound Hound (talk) 02:11, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP[edit]

Much of the article is unsourced. The few sources that exist are the following: 

  1. http://www.lamblion.com/Web01-03.php
  2. http://www.lamblion.com/popup/photo-039.php
  3. http://www.lamblion.com/video-019.php
  4. You tube videos
  5. http://www.markagabriel.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=37#islamicterrorist

None of these sources appear to be reliable, can someone show otherwise? http://www.markagabriel.org can be accepted as long as we use wit caution.

Since I presume he is is alive, I'll delete material from this article if it is not sourced adequately.Bless sins 06:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How are those sources not reliable for his existence, he is their, live! Robert C Prenic 08:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I edited this page a while where I had consensus on the talk page for trimming the unsourcable fluff of his biography and being rather more skeptical of his claims but I noticed that it was all reverted. There are NO reliable sources for this man. In the version I and others edited, a lot of the fluff that is here now was cut. I personally think it should be done so again. If the article is going to be this long, it should find actual sources for him. Jayran 04:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How many times do I have to say that his claims are sourced as claims per WP: BLP. Why is that not clear? --Ian Pitchford 17:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Despite your claims that BLP works in this situation, the shorter, more sceptical outlook is appropriate here - wp:BLP says this also - "it is not contentious;

it is not unduly self-serving; there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it; the article is not based primarily on such sources." This article fails on all these accounts. There is no need to include all the details on his "conversion" to Christianity. All that is needed to be said on this individual is the following - he claims to be a graduate of al-Azhar and a former imam, he is a currently a Christian, and he has written some books that are islamophobic. The sources that you use are self-serving, there are doubts about the actual author, and the majority of the article in its current form is from his sources. There is also consensus on the talk page for a shorter version.

Also, your version is not sceptical enough of him. All one needs to do is scan the section on controversy where it mentions that he has a degree from al-Azhar. He doesn't. Jayran 00:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but adding a tinybit. Robert C Prenic 08:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ISLAM.NO ARTICLE[edit]

We need to establish for certain whether or not the 'Islam og terrorisme, Av Mark Gabriel. Kommentert av Basim Ghozlan' article by Basim Ghozlan was published with the largest Christian daily newspaper in Norway, Vaart Land, denouncing Gabriel and his book Islam and Terrorism.

As you can see their is a debate about this, please see the edits HERE which show the references.

Mark Gabriel says the article did feature in the magazine and so does Ghozlan but User:Jayran says: "Google and Vårt Land's own archives show no record of this article ever being published anywhere other than Islam.no" Robert C Prenic 06:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite busy at the moment, so I'll keep this short. Here's a link for google with results limited to Vårt Land's site - the search terms are mark gabriel basim. [9] and a search with a passage of the Islam.no article that Mark quotes in the original language with no site restrictions - [10]. Mark Gabriel isn't just a fraud, he is bad at being one. Jayran 18:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Source[edit]

See[11]. Doug Weller (talk) 15:02, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can you be more specific? What is this sourcing and what does it say? If pertinent, why not just add it to the article?E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright violation[edit]

A substantial part of this article appears to be a copy/paste of this website and in particular of this page. Furthermore the entire page has been translated into WP(fr) and WP(nl) with the same potential copyright violation. --Lebob (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Check the wayback archive, how much of this page was added before that webpage existed? Doug Weller talk 19:18, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for keeping an eye open for copyvio, Lebob! In this particular case, however, it's the other way round – Gabriel has copied from us (and without the acknowledgement required by our licence, too). Looking at archived versions of the page you rightly identified as similar, the first to have the biographical text is this, from 1 September 2012; the previous archived version from March 2012 doesn't have the bio. The content was copied from about this version of our page. The absolute giveaway is the Wikipedia citation number in square brackets – "… to also accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour".[5]" – in that September 2012 version of his page. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:14, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Text has been rewritten. This problem has been fixed.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:49, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Allegations of fraud[edit]

The assertion that Gabriel's "real identity" has been questioned really needs a second source.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:09, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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