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"Born to a Jewish family?"
- 1. Please do not remove text from an article without leaving a summary remark. 2. A person can be born to a Jewish family without being a praticing Jew him or herself. -- Dcflyer 03:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes you can be born to a Jewish family without being a practicing Jew, but this is just perpetuating a racial stereotype. What is the motivatation for promoting this racial stereotype? Are you obsessed with this? How about adding "born to a Christian family" to other articles? I don't understand what you mean by leaving a summary remark. My rationale should be clear. ----me—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) .
- Providing factual information in an encylcopedia is far from perpetuating a racial stereotype. Also, what racial stereotype is being perpetuated? By saying "racial stereotype" do you mean Anti-Semetism? Take a look a some other Wikipedia articles: List of Jewish Americans, List of Jewish American actors, and List of British Jews. Do you think these promote "racial stereotypes" as well? This article is already tagged with the category, Category:Jewish American actors. Finally, let me address your point about not having "born to a Christian family" on other articles. The subjects of biographies on the English Wikipedia are overwhelming from the U.S., Canada, the UK, and Australia. The majority of individuals from these countries are Christian. In the minority are Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and others. Pointing this out is simply providing factual information to the reader and cannot be at all compared to attaching a Star of David or a Red Crescent to these articles. -- Dcflyer 21:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
There are indeed racial stereotypes about Jewish families, just as there are stereotypes about Asian families and black families. Why don't you start adding "born to an Asian family" and "born to a black family" to articles, Dcflyer? Why is there an obsession with promoting a stereotype about Jewish families? There's nothing wrong with saying someone is Jewish, if they are Jewish. Just say it directly, don't promote the "Jewish family" stereotype. ----Signed, me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) .
- To start, unless someone's being identified as something other than human, it's possibly an ethnic stereotype, not a racial one. I also think 220.127.116.11 has a different definition of what that is.
- An ethnic stereotype is a generalized representation of an ethnic group, composed of what are thought to be typical characteristics of members of the group. The use of ethnic stereotypes is usually demeaning even when the characteristics might be considered positive because it tends to discount the importance and uniqueness of the individual.
- Saying someone was born to Jewish parents acknowledges a fact, it doesn't promote a stereotype. As to a lack of citation, since converting to Judaism is a difficult process, it's highly likely that, since Mr. Landau is Jewish , he was born to Jewish parents. I don't see anything in the article that is trying to attach stereotypical behavior to Mr. Landau or his parents.
- I don't understand your apparent belief that saying someone is Jewish is okay, while saying they were born of Jewish parents is perpetuating a stereotype. What stereotype would that be? How is "born to a Jewish family" a stereotype? Based on your reasoning, it would seem that saying someone is Jewish is perpetuating an ethnic stereotype. I don't understand why the former is a stereotype and the latter isn't. Also, please start identifying yourself on your posts. It's really easy, just type ~~~~ at the end of your comments it's right under the editing pane after Sign your name:. Chidom 00:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I cannot agree more with the remarks by the original commentator. This is a common problem on Wikipedia. It is always promulgated by non-Jews who have no conception of what it means to be Jewish and how sensitive the "labeling" otherwise can be. First and foremost, Martin Landau IS Jewish, was born to a Jewish PRACTICING AND OBSERVANT family in Brooklyn, NY. The family was very much a part of the local Jewish community. Mr. Landau has never renounced his Judaism. Why would he? Therefore, there can be no question of his ethnic/cultural and religious heritage- He is Jewish. Let this be the end of a ridiculous and convoluted argument. I will further add that this specifically and only arises as it pertains to those of the Jewish faith and heritage; we never see such bickering of ethnic persuasion attributed to any other race, creed, religion, culture or ethnicity. The same convoluted argument has arisen on Wiki pages of similarly famous Jewish names- Stanley Kubrick is just one example. It is always and only raised by non-Jews who, for some reason, insist on marginalizing and/or diminishing the identity of a Jewish individual. We can conclude from such accusations, and that is exactly what they are, that these comments border on antisemitism and certainly qualify as utter ignorance. "Born to a Jewish family" IS marginalization and outrageously inappropriate. It would only be appropriate if the individual had outwardly repudiated his Jewish heritage and was publicly known. Perhaps Dostoevsky is not Russian but only of "Russian descent"? And Jesse Owens is only of "African origin"? Maybe JFK was not Irish Catholic but only "born to Catholic parents"? This is an affront plain and simple. M.P. Landau (talk) 02:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Regarding your statement, Martin Landau IS Jewish, was born to a Jewish PRACTICING AND OBSERVANT family in Brooklyn, NY. The family was very much a part of the local Jewish community. Simply add those details with a source to the article and then remove "born to a Jewish family." If you don't know how to do that, then add the source here and someone else can do it. --Light show (talk) 03:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't need to cite an 'article' or 'source.' I AM the source. I am a member of the Landau family and have known through personal experience the facts to which I attest. Mr. Landau grew up, if I recall correctly, in the Canarsie section of Brooklyn. It is ridiculous that one would have to argue this point. Beyond that, my reasoning stands unto itself: the entire argument is an affront to Jewish people and to the Landau family. I will attempt to correct the article as you note. Thanks for your assistance. M.P. Landau (talk) 03:41, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, per WP:BURDEN and WP:OR you do need to provide sources for any info that you wish to add to this article. You cannot use yourself as a source. Please read through the WP:BLP and WP:COI where this is gone into in detail. MarnetteD | Talk 06:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia avoids asserting someone's religion unless some published material states that they practiced their religion. In that case, their religion is also noted in the infobox. But for someone born to Jewish parents, without published proof that they practiced their religion, it's still understood by most readers that they're Jewish by ethnicity or race. There's no implication that they therefore "renounced" their religion, nor is their identity "diminished." It's understood by most people that while he is Jewish, Wikipedia can't state that he practiced Judaism, the religion. This overlapping of religion, race and ethnicity really doesn't pertain to the examples you listed: Blacks, African Americans, Catholics, Irish or Russians. Obviously, "antisemitism" is totally irrelevant to any of this, and thinking that adding such family details is "only raised by non-Jews" is also inaccurate. --Light show (talk) 06:14, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
The fact that neither of you can see calling a Jewish individual Jewish is proper and right, and that you would look for reasons otherwise to not call them so, speaks to your ignorance. Sandy Koufax? Jewish. Philip Roth? Jewish. Albert Einstein? Jewish. Woody Allen? Jewish. Larry David? Jewish. Are you really going to insist on calling every Jewish individual "born to Jewish parents" unless a citation on the internet can document their religious practice? That is not only faulty in logic, but it IS in fact treading on antisemitism, or at the very least a coarse and insensitive read on the topic. It marginalizes the individual's origins. And it DOES infer a distance from their Jewish identity, which is the crime herein: 'downplaying' (diminishing) one's identity is re-writing history. My examples are congruent and to the point; the fact you cannot see it speaks further to your lack of understanding. Being Jewish is far more than practicing and observing the Jewish faith; in fact, it often has little to do with faith and belief and has much more to do with family heritage and ethnic culture. It has as much to do with a sense of place in society and one's orientation to the population. Additionally, your "requirement" that I provide an internet source is beyond ridiculous; I could provide numerous links to demonstrate Donald Rumsfeld is a space alien, it wouldn't take much searching...I challenge your allegation that I am inaccurate in stating that only a non-Jew could possibly come up with such a convoluted 'requirement'. Tell me please, are you Jewish? I didn't think so. And may I add Jewish people are NOT A RACE. In fact, Jewish people encompass numerous races, most of which are Caucasian. Martin Landau is Jewish and nothing you can say changes that fact. M.P. Landau (talk) 13:29, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- No one said he wasn't Jewish. Your trollish argument is simply a play on words. Since you can easily provide links to prove that Donald Rumsfeld is a space alien, feel free to add a few about your relative. --Light show (talk) 16:57, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- You infer a distance between Mr. Landau and his Jewish identity. That's enough to conclude you are indeed marginalizing his Jewish identity but hey, it's your set of excuses, and you have to live with them. Better you than I. I prefer the truth, which is what we should all be seeking equally here. As for "trollish", if an attempt to enlighten would be deemed "trollish" then yes I am a troll. It's funny you would create a hyperlink for "trollish", which further speaks to your robotic, limited understanding of what it means to seek truth. Truth doesn't need a hyperlink, or a reference. This is not a court of law, this is an encyclopedia compiled by anyone and everyone, and thus, we must take the wise with the narrow-minded. We must accept that, given the nature of Wikipedia, any page, and indeed most pages, contain partial truths, pure untruths, omissions, redaction and every form of subjective fiction one can imagine. M.P. Landau (talk) 17:05, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
departure from mission impossible
The Leonard Nimoy biography says that he joined the show "mission impossible" when Martin Landau left the show. However, this biography fails to explain why Landau left the show, which was one of his most most acclaimed roles in movies and T.V. It would be good to explain why he left. SystemBuilder (talk) 06:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
iMDB, grandmas, people you know are not reliable sources. The Washington Post lists his DoB as 1928. You can't view the entire article but an excerpt from the Boston Globe also lists 1928 being the correct date. These I would consider reliable sources. Q T C 08:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I am looking at this book now. The International Television and Video Alamanac is a thick book. It lists his birthdate as 1930, not 1931.
Someone is lying. 1928, 1930, 1931. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigerrorhere (talk • contribs) 22:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC) The 1931 reference is space199.net, not the best resource. It's also an interview so the guy may be trying to look younger. My book is the best source and it is 1930. We must look like a joke and laughing stock if Martin is reading this and see's that we bought his fiction, lock stock and barrel. So 1930 should be it unless we can show that 1928 is more accurate.
- It isn't a big deal imo, one year out, or there seems to be a bit of a discrepancy, but hey...so what. Off2riorob (talk) 22:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- One way to be really accurate is to use the 1930 date since it is the best reference, then put a footnote with the 1928 and 1931 source. I have a feeling that Mr. Landau is making up some fiction.Bigerrorhere (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, if your good with footnotes that is a good idea. ta. Off2riorob (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Who's Who which is based upon the biographee's submission says: Brooklyn, June 20, 1931. But the 1988 article "Martin Landau Rolls Up in a New Vehicle" said: he refuses to disclose his exact age because he says it would further limit the roles offered to him. So my best guess is 1928. --Bejnar (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
- Though it has been awhile since anyone has posted here all I can say is "UGH'. This doesn't look like it is going to have an easy solution. The New York Times  and the official TV Guide site  and Hollywood.com  list 1931 as the birth year. I don't know how reliable the last one is but it should be pointed out that the other two usually can be relied on. I sure wish that we had someone in NY who could run down to the records office and settle this. Until then I think that we should leave it blank or go back to the footnotes suggestion made in Nov of '09. MarnetteD | Talk 00:22, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
- As for User:Off2riorob and his "It isn't a big deal imo, ... but hey...so what": This is not Approximopedia or Goodenoughopedia or "She'll be right, mate"-opedia. If you're not interested in getting to the most accurate version of the events we chronicle here, then what on earth are you doing here? Go off and write novels or comic strips. Or shopping lists. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
- Although Off2 can speak for himself it should be pointed out, in fairness, that the post that you are commenting on was made almost two years ago. Off2 has not displayed the same attitude in recent dealings that I have had with him on biography articles, indeed it has been much the opposite. MarnetteD | Talk 02:23, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
MarnetteD asked me to chime in here since I have some experience hunting down birthdates. The databases I usually use list his birthdate as "June 20, 1931?" so they are obviously unsure about that date. Googing reveals that less reliable sources are all over the map, from 1928 to 34. I've searched in various places but haven't had any luck. Since the Boston Globe is the only reliable source that discusses his birthdate - as opposed to just dropping it in passing as a random factoid - I think we should go with that source until it is answered definitively by a biography, a journalist digging into the matter, or an obituary. Gamaliel (talk) 03:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi, its long ago but I imagine I was commenting in regard to notability and his exact date of birth is not a part of his notability, but I agree it is an important part of his persondata - One recent solution has been to add circa to the birth year but personally I didn't like that option. User:Gamiel has some good research tools and if he/she can't ascertain without doubt then I accept that there is doubt. I also like the Boston Globe source and date as that is accessible online and also explains that there is some variance in the reporting. Off2riorob (talk) 11:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Landau was born in 1928. I have been able to locate him on the 1930 U.S. Census with his parents in Brooklyn. Dated April 14, 1930, it states that he was 1 year and 9 months old. I've never updated a Wikipedia article before, but I'll work on adding a citation shortly. Editrix71 (talk) 14:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: It is unclear to me whether including this information would be a privacy issue. Does Mr. Landau actually want his birth year to be private? Advice welcome. Editrix71 (talk) 14:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
MarnetteD: When you reverted my edit, you said I needed to "provide definitive proof this is the consensus version." I'm not sure how to go about building or proving the consensus you're asking for. Would you be willing to at least review the document I cited? Editrix71 (talk) 04:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- The census clearly lists Landau as 21 months old in 1930. So, if we're talking about facts (most important to me), then he was born in 1928. If we're talking verification, an article from The Boston Globe dated October 8, 1989 states that he was then 61 years old. Don't see what else can be said. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 22:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's no controversy. The correct date has been in the article with reliable sources for almost two years. And your saying something is so without providing a reliable, verifiable source wouldn't carry much weight. Meters (talk) 04:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Turning Down the Role of Spock
Landau discussed this with Bob Costas on "Later with Bob Costas." It is not a legend. He auditioned for the part but decided the role was not of interest to him, although he indicated that "Lenny Nimoy" did a great job with it.18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- References? If you can find any reliable references that you can cite, please add it. See WP:RELIABLE for what constitutes a reliable reference. --Manway (talk) 23:47, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- This is a classic case of an inherent, and I guess unavoidable, weakness in Wikipedia's citation policy. (This particular issue has been brought up on Leonard Nimoy's page as well.) The problem is when you have multiple sources that are "referenceable" that have contradictory information on a particular issue. This particular issue has many referenceable sources from "back in the day" that state it is true. Hence, you then also have modern-day sources that cite those sources that state it as being true. As I understand it, it has been refuted more recently by some who were actually involved with the situation (e.g. Fred Freiberger). So, depending on what you read and what you want to believe, you can find proof it is true, or proof it is not true. imho, the right answer is to say something on the order of "Sources have reported that the role of Spock on Star Trek was initially offered to Martin Landau; however, more recent interviews with those involved cast doubt on that story." As a side note, a good example of a often-referenced-on-Wikipedia book that states this Landau-offered-Spoke-first story as fact is Patrick White's otherwise dependable book The Complete Mission: Impossible Dossier. --PoughkeepsieNative (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)