Talk:Masjid al-Haram

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not enough r.s ref[edit]

there is a serious lack of ref and this article will need them. Who is writing most of these sections is not necessarily inaccurate but we need sources for those statements, esp when people need to verify info by themselves. I cannot trust things without ref. --Inayity (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Dear Inayity, I hope you are well. You are right. I'm trying to clean up the prose, but it's also clear to me that the article needs reliable neutral sources. I'll search for some as time permits. Please free to add some too. Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 20:18, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

use the edit summary to explain your edits[edit]

By doing that it communicates the issue so other editors know. Saying "un constructive" does not inspire much collaboration. b/c I was very confused at the reversion. WP:ES--Inayity (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

what was the first thing built?[edit]

I'm a bit confused by this: "the very first construction of the Kaaba, the heart of the Masjid al-Haram, was undertaken by Abraham. The Qur'an said that this was the first house built for humanity to worship Allah.[Quran 3:96] With the order of the God [Quran 22:26], Abraham and his son Ishmael found the original foundation and rebuild the Kaaba [Quran 2:125] [Quran 2:127] in 2130 BCE." What was the "original foundation" found by Abraham, if he build the first construction? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 04:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

According to Islamic tradition, the original foundations were the foundations of the first Ka'bah, built by Adam. I have found a good online reference for this (Story of Holy Kabah and its People by S.R.M Shaabar | First Chapter; Ka’aba - The House Of Allah)--Zkrjebril92 (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

History section?[edit]

The Pre-Mohamed part of the "History" section is very much centred on Islamic beliefs, so is subjective. This information is important to the completeness of the article, however Wikipedia articles should be written from an objective point of view. The history section should be in subjective terms. The Quran says the Kabaa was built by Abraham, but what have scientific investigations revealed about when it was built? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.35.235 (talk) 15:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Seems difficult as architectural research into Islamic historical places, even such a famous one, is very lacking. Only thin like this i can think of is analysis of the Black Stone showing tht the black Stone was most likely a meteorite. --Zkrjebril92 (talk) 16:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Masjid al-Haram," it's "Al-Masjid Al-Haram"[edit]

Yes it means exactly what one thinks it means. There is no such thing as a mosque, anywhere in the world, called "Masjid Al-Haram." The reason is because the meaning of that would be "the mosque of prohibited things" rather than the real name for the grand mosque, "AL-Masjid Al-Haram," which actually means "the sacred mosque." Writing an Arabic ism (not exactly the same as a noun but close) without the definite article followed by another ism which actually does have the definite article causes the first word to become a possessor and the second to be a possession. That is not the case with this mosque; it is "THE masjid" and "haram" is functioning as a na't or adjective describing it as holy or sacred. If we even look at the Arabic Wikipedia version, "المسجد الحرام," we will see that the definite article is attached to both words; not doing so is a really blatant grammatical error.

Thus, I would like to propose two possibilities...we either change the article's name to "Al-Masjid Al-Haram" or just change it to English per WP:ENGLISH. Either way, this current title does not refer to an actual place because no mosque on Earth, including the subject of this article, is called that. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to quote two policies: WP:VERIFY which says that material "must clearly support the material as presented in the article". And WP:WEIGHT which says that content is featured "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." So essentially, it does not matter if it grammatically wrong - what matters is whats in the sources. The fact remains is that the current phrasing IS found in reliable sources hence i'm gonna vote to keep it as it is. Pass a Method talk 07:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I recommend the page name is changed to Al-Masjid al-Haram. Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 07:19, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I oppose a name change. Pass a Method talk 09:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Dear Pass a Method, you are an outstanding editor and I seldom find myself disagreeing with you. I just know, as an Arabic speaker, than one needs the first direct article. My regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I did a google books search [1]. I currently support the move. Pass a Method talk 15:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
So, how does this work? Do we need to put a template on the article or notify project Islam first, or are comments from the three of us enough? Should we maybe wait a little longer? MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I also support the "move". I am convinced by the claim and thank for pointing this out. regards Yakamoz51 (talk) 13:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok so what happens now? MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Transliterated words[edit]

Unfortunately, most of the Arabic names doesn't have a standard transliteration in English. So I suggest, if a word doesn't have a standard transliteration in English then we should use Wikipedia article name on that subject, if exist. For example if Wikipedia article names the cuboid building as Kaaba, then all words refer to thaere should be Kaaba in the Article. Not Qaaba, Qabah, Kabah, Kaabah etc.. Similarly, Wikipedia transliterates the city where Kaaba is in as Mecca. So we should stick on this name. If you believe that "i.e. Mecca" is a wrong transliteration then go ahead and discuss that issue on that page before making a change on this page. Thank you. Yakamoz51 (talk) 11:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Dear Yakamoz51, you make perfect sense to me. Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 11:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Could someone transliterate the Arabic at the beginning of the article? Thanks (I don't know Arabic). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.96.26.237 (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Move?[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 18:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but I did not see anyone disagree with the move, it is a very clear cut argument per every book on the subject. --Inayity (talk) 07:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Inayity "moved" the article by copy-pasting, so its history was incorrect. I posted on Wikipedia:Cut-and-paste-move_repair_holding_pen about it. I just wanted the article's history restored after the move, but my request seems to have been misinterpreted as a request to move the article back to Masjid al-Haram. I don't disagree with the move; there was a consensus for it. —rybec 23:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, thank you for your efforts. I should have said "misinterpreted as a request to also move the article back." —rybec 15:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose, or move to Grand Mosque. The use of the Arabic title, as shown with this issue, is problematic. Because al-Masjid al-Haram means The Sacred Mosque, we can't write "structures in the al-Masjid al-Haram"; we'd have to write "structures in al-Masjid al-Haram", which sounds completely unnatural in English. In some ways, it seems plausible that "the Masjid al-Haram", with the Arabic al replaced by the English the should actually be acceptable. This is much in the same way we're okay with the and mosque replacing their Arabic equivalents in "the al-Aqsa Mosque" and omitting the second the in the article name al-Aqsa Mosque. (And many sources don't even use the article the before al-Aqsa Mosque, even though it introduces a grammatical issue.)
However, it might just be better to avoid this issue altogether by using "Grand Mosque", which, apparently, is the more common name in English, especially outside texts aimed at Muslims. Compare 15,600 Google Books results for "Grand Mosque" mecca -wikipedia vs. 1,980 Google Books results for "al-Masjid al-Haram" mecca -wikipedia (the latter of which is largely serious Islamic texts by Muslim authors). I'm indifferent between the two options, but I oppose moving this to "al-Masjid al-Haram", which, as suggested by the nature of the Google Books results, is just not English. -- tariqabjotu 06:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is about Al-Masjid Al Haram per RS (not what sounds cool in English), Grand mosque has many claiming that title. So why are you comparing a disambig to a specific unique name.? The above logic you have conjured up makes no sense per WP:TITLE. It is like doing a google search and saying Mosque is more popular than Masjid al-Aqsa, so let us rename it to Mosque b/c it is more common or worse because it is in English. The only argument would be if we were debating spelling (Haraam vs Haram), and we are not.--Inayity (talk) 07:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
That Google search was specifically "Grand Mosque" mecca -wikipedia -- with "mecca" included -- in an effort to narrow down the results to just ones about the mosque in Mecca. Sure, there might be a few false positives, but browsing through at least the first few pages of those results, I see that all of the references are to the mosque in Mecca. There is certainly no basis for the insinuation that 90 percent of those results are references to other mosques or the straw-man argument that accompanies that.

"What sounds cool in English" is actually relevant here, because this is the English Wikipedia. There are a number of sources that use the allegedly grammatically incorrect "the Masjid al-Haram", including publications based in the Arab world. Among these sources are The Diplomat, a publication by the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs, UAE-based The National, al-Jazeera (which never uses "al-Masjid al-Haram") the BBC (which never says "al-Masjid al-Haram"), and The New York Times (which also never uses "al-Masjid al-Haram"). There is ample evidence to suggest that "the Masjid al-Haram" is acceptable in English and that "al-Masjid al-Haram" is just Arabic transliterated. And that doesn't even say anything about "Grand Mosque", which al-Jazeera, the BBC, the New York Times, the AP, etc, seem to much more strongly prefer, being, of course, English. -- tariqabjotu 09:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Strong move- The name is Al Majid Al-Haram, it does not have another name! Not much scope for a debate when the name is what the name is.--Inayity (talk) 07:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose We go by reliable sources. There are plenty such which bear the current title. Pass a Method talk 11:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "in the al-Masjid al-Haram" with two "the"-words together is the same sort of form as in the commonly written "at the La Brea tar pits". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
    @Anthony Appleyard: It's not quite the same thing. The English the is associated with the Tar Pits. If this were "the al-Haram Masjid" (or "the al-Haram Mosque"), there would be no grammatical issue, just as there isn't one when people say "the al-Aqsa Mosque". -- tariqabjotu 15:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Premature move[edit]

Sorry. I was checking how to move the page if and when an editorial consensus emerged. I accidentally did it. I have reverted my move. I apologize. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 05:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I feel like the Move debate was poorly advertised in the correct communities and hence got a low turn out. Most of the people who supported the move did not even use the above vote. Total opinions only 3 Including me.--Inayity (talk) 03:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Abraham/Ibrahim?[edit]

The article switches between the two names for the same person. I suggest only "Ibrahim" be used as his relation to the Kaaba is only in the Islamic tradition. Wkharrisjr (talk) 17:21, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Administration section[edit]

Can we get some sort of definitive listing, some sourced official source, so that the list of who is Imam when and all that isn't a source of constant disruption? I don't know enough to fix this and it's frustrating the hell out of me. Peter Deer (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Do we need this long section ?[edit]

Imams and Muadhins section is more than a quarter of the article. And also it is merely list of current and former imams/muadhins. Imagine, we put all the names of former imams/muadhins than it would be a list of thousands of people throughout the history. Several of them even doesn't have a WP page. So I propose to summarize (if not remove at all) this section and keep only very notable imams and muadhins. Yakamoz51 (talk) 15:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)