Talk:Massacre of the Acqui Division
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I reverted two edits by Noclador about a referendum among the Acqui men. It is a really interesting and important detail but unfortunately it is completely uncited. The article is fully cited in every other claim it makes. Introducing these uncited facts will lower the quality of the article and runs against Wikipedia policies WP:RS and WP:V. It would be nice to include them in the article but citations have to be provided. The Italian and German Wikipedias make such referendum claims but they wre also uncited. We cannot refer to other Wikipedia article claims if these claims are not cited. Dr.K. (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I suspected that someone would revert my edits... I wrote the corresponding German wiki article and provided the scans of the various messages of the Germans and Italians in the days leading up to the massacre - my source was/is the Italian Partisans Association, a speech by the Italian president commemorating the event (at: "unanime, concorde, plebiscitaria") and many more, but I think those two should be enough to reinsert the referendum/plebiscite info into the article. --noclador (talk) 13:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps Noclador, who added the info in the relevant Italian and German articles, can help with providing refs and page numbers. I do not doubt that what he says is correct (except perhaps the bit about rebuffing an Allied commission), but let's see. Constantine ✍ 14:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
"Outcome never in doubt" and "Hardened veterans"
I repeat here my edit summary comments: "I hate doing this but: The "outcome was never in doubt" in whose opinion? Please provide citation. " Hardened veterans" also needs citation)"
The fact remains these are subjective evaluations and uncited speculation. Maybe these troops were professional and hardened but if they were so they would be recognised as such by historians so it wouldn't be so hard to find citations for the fact they were hardened. I also find the comment "Outcome never in doubt" to be WP:OR. So please provide citations for this stuff or do not insert it again. Dr.K. (talk) 13:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, let's make it clear. Sorry if I show myself "stubborn". I appreciate the fact that you try to keep the article within NPOV and OR guidelines. My point is rather simple: when you have a division composed of conscripts, which has not seen any action for a couple of years at least, and whose commander was reluctant to confront the Germans, put against one of the Wehrmacht's finest units, engaged in constant warfare practically since the war began, and with absolute air superiority, then it isn't really OR to say that "the outcome was not in doubt", but rather a logical conclusion. You can remove it if you feel it is that important, but I wanted to provide some context for the average reader so that he could appreciate the (very real) disparity of the opposing sides. Cheers, Constantine ✍
- I appreciate your position Kostas. I was (and to an extent still am) a proponent of logical conclusions where warranted. In this case however I think that the phrase "Outcome never in doubt", (which by the way I really like because it adds a dramatic flair to the narrative), is too loaded against the capabilities of the Italians and their decision to fight on. If we can rephrase it somehow something like the "Germans enjoyed air superiority" or if there is a citation about the relative inexperience of the Italians versus the Germans etc. we can mention the relative dynamics of the troops. Otherwise we just reinforce the stereotypes of the German superior force and the Italian pasta loving, music playing people. I don't think that's fair to the Italians. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 14:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC))
- Hmmm, I'll try to scrounge up some concrete reference. The problem is, one cannot really find a citation comparing these two adversaries in specific, chiefly because most books on the Gebirgsjäger that I have access to largely gloss the issue over, or do not consider the defeat of an Italian division important enough to mention in detail. Perhaps a phrasing like "despite help from the local population, including the island's small ELAS partisan detachments, the Germans had several advantages: they enjoyed complete air superiority, and their troops were of higher quality." I think that pretty much sums it up, since I cannot see how we can avoid phrases like "the Germans were better led/trained/equipped" when they correspond to facts. I agree it may look like repeating the eternal Italian stereotypes, but these stereotypes emerged for a reason. And in this case, the difference was simply too great. Do you have any better phrasing to propose? Constantine ✍ 15:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with everything proposed except: "and their troops were of higher quality" which could be modified as "the German troops had longer service and were experienced while the Italians were conscripts" That way the readers can make up their minds instead of being guided by the hand. Dr.K. (talk) 15:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It is a rather scandalous statement that "The reason for Lanz’s light sentence was that the court at Nuremberg was deceived by false evidence and did not believe that the massacre took place". Why was this so? Why do we now know that the massacre took place? Or did it? When was the change of view, and why? What is the evidence that there was actually a massacre? The Nuremburg trials were generally backed by comprehensive research. Why no so in this case? Or did the research fail to uncover any evidence, because there was none? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 23:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The Nuremberg trials distributed justice and injustice almost at random. It is not surprising that their "research failed to uncover any evidence". In fact, you can assume that the physical evidenced were not searched at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Justification of the massacre on the basis of the chain of command
In two places the article justified the massacre because the whole 11th Italian army was under superior command of German command in the Balkans, e.g. "before the shooting a German sergeant informed the Italian officers they were to be shot for treason, which was true".
I do not doubt the chain of command or what that sergeant said, but writing that this justified the German actions or "which was true" is false and a dishonest attempt to justify war crime;
Possibly the murderers believed that themselves and used the belief to justify their actions to themselves and the rest of the world; Wikipedia shall not present murderer's motives as truth, The fact that an encyclopedia shall report is: the Italians were under German command because the Italian High Command ordered them so. They did not become German soldiers or pledged allegiance to the Fuhrer; they remained Italian soldiers liable to the Italian King and the Italian military jurisdiction. Once the Italian High Command ordered something contrasting the German orders, it was their duty to go against the German orders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC)