Talk:McCandless, Pennsylvania

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Town[edit]

1. It is quite obvious here that it was agreed upon that "since the law calls it a town, then we're all bound to treat it as such."

2. It was stated somewhere before that because it's still a "municipal corporation" that that makes it still a township. However, if you would waltz on over to the municipal corporation article, you would see that a town IS a municipal corporation.

3. The law states "The boundaries of the Town of McCandless shall be the boundaries of McCandless Township on the effective date of this Charter, or as lawfully changed thereafter." If the law were merely changing the name of a township, it would not be going into such detail as this.

4. A town council is outlined in the law. If the intention of the law was to change the name of a township, it would not be setting up a different form of governing body than what was already in place. The Board of Supervisors was eliminated by the township being eliminated, and the board members were grandfathered in as town council members.

5. "The Town of McCandless shall be the successor in interest to McCandless Township in all respects and shall continue to own, possess, exercise, control and enjoy, as the case may be, all of the property, rights and privileges of McCandless Township as of the effective date of this Charter." - The word "successor" makes it pretty clear, cut and dry, that McCandless Township was replaced with the Town of McCandless. That's all there is to it. Wiktionary defines "successor" as "A person or thing that immediately replaces another."

Search4Lancer 07:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • While I agree that the name is The Town of McCandless, it does not seem to legally be a town under PA law. See here on page 6-62, where it reads "Bloomsburg is the only incorporated town in Pa." Furthermore, it lists the Town of McCandless with the townships (page 6-77). Please note there are three borougsh that also incorporate the name town (Elizabethtown, Norristown (OK, it is a former borough), and Pottstown). There are also over a dozen boroughs named "City" (Ellwood City, for example) but no one is arguing they are cities under PA law. Ruhrfisch 02:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the adoption of a home rule charter does not change the type of municipal corporation (township, borough, etc.). There is no doubt, for example, that Philadelphia is still a city, though it has a home rule charter and is therefore a home rule municipality. Similarly, Allegheny County is still a county, despite also having a home rule charter. To be certain, it would be necessary to compare legislation that changes, for example, a township to a borough (as in Franklin Township to Franklin Park Borough) to that which "changes" a municipality of any type to a home rule municipality. While there are certainly valid arguments that McCandless is a town by some definitions, there is also clear indication from state government that it is also a township, albeit one that does not operate under the default system of government for townships.

Furthermore, "home rule municipality" does not appear to be a distinct class of municipal corporation, and so the municipal corporation called McCandless must be either a town, township, borough or city, and the only explicit source we've found yet is the PA manual, which says that it is a township and that only Bloomsburg is a town. I believe the reference to McCandless not being a township should therefore be deleted.ESRoads (talk) 22:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a little more weight to the argument, the home rule charter does state that McCandless is a Home Rule Charter Municipality. While not all HR townships use this language (they "continue to be a municipal corporation under the name [xxx] Township"), McCandless certainly isn't the only one that does. Penn Hills also uses this language, and we agree that it's a township still; ditto Mt. Lebanon. The term "municipal corporation" is interesting: it refers to townships, boroughs, cities and incorporated towns, and that's all. The Home Rule and Optional Plans Law doesn't say anything about creating a new type of municipal corporation, so those charters worded like McCandless's don't account for what type of municipal corporation it is (only what it used to be).

So I submit that McCandless is a township, a municipal corporation, and a home rule charter municipality all at once. And if Cape Cod is a cape, and if the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is a commonwealth, then I also believe that McCandless is a town as well.ESRoads (talk) 05:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

not a town[edit]

just because they call themselves "town of mccandless" does not make it so. that may be strange, but it's true. there are a few boroughs that call themselves "municipality of #$^%&" but they are not classified as "municipalities" in a technical way, they are still boroughs or townships, as is mccandless township. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.201.23.244 (talk) 14:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, this "Town of" McCandless sounds messed up. It looks to be a township that renamed itself to be "Town of McCandless", and renamed all of it's offices to be "town" council, "town" manager, etc. That doen't make it a town in the eyes of the State of Pennsylvania. The 2006 "Local Government Entities in Pennsylvania" and "Local Statistics" from the state of PA says, "There is only one incorporated town in Pennsylvania," and well, that's Bloomsburg. It's just a historical artifact. As far as I know the state doesn't allow towns to be formed anymore, and it's probably enough of pain in the butt for them to make special exceptions just for the one, let alone adding more. If it was all in just the name, there are plenty of municpal entities in PA that have "town" in their name.

Great Confusion in this Article[edit]

Well-meaning editors seem to have turned this article into something misleading and inaccurate. I live in an adjacent community to this one, and have some familiarity with McCandless and other Pennsylvania governments through long-ago service on a municipal authority. Here are some points:

  1. The name of the municipality is Town of McCandless. There is no doubt or conflict about this. See their website at http://www.townofmccandless.org/. McCandless Township is an obsolete name, and is no longer used anywhere that I know of, except in this article.
  2. The Town of McCandless is a Home Rule Municipality (Pennsylvania). There is no doubt or conflict about this, either. It is not a Township in any way, though it formerly was a Township of the First Class. Various publications may still refer to it as a township, but they are wrong. The large number and great variety of Home Rule Municipalities make it difficult for government handbooks, for example, to be specific about these entities. It is easier for them to say that every Pennsylvanian lives in either a city, a township, or a borough. This was true before the advent of Home Rule Municipalities, but it is no longer the case.
  3. Except for possibly one or two grandfathered gray-area exceptions, the "Town" is not a unit of municipal government in Pennsylvania. There are counties, cities, boroughs, townships, and Home Rule Municipalities. There are no Towns, as there are in some other states. The word "Town" in this municipality's name is just a word; it does not refer to any sort of political subdivision. (Think John Cougar Mellencamp, who is a human, not a cat.)
  4. No other Pennsylvania governmental units have "McCandless" as part of their name. It is not necessary, and IMHO it is undesirable, to include "Allegheny County" in the name of this article, just as it is unnecessary to include their county in the names of articles about Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Erie, Punxsutawney, Bird-in-Hand, or any other municipality with an unambiguous name. (On the other hand, where several municipalities with identical names exist in a state, their county needs to be specified in their article's title; see Ross Township, Pennsylvania.)

@Nyttend: I'm not presently able to clean this article up myself, and I certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I encourage others who have recently edited it to bring it into line with the points brought out above. Some of the references need to be updated, too. Lou Sander (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As you will see from the home rule municipality article, HRMs don't cease to be boroughs or townships. Meanwhile, the name that the township has picked does not affect the fact that it's still McCandless Township. As far as "Allegheny County", including the county name is part of the naming conventions for all PA townships; Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Erie being cities, Punxsutawney being a borough, and Bird-in-Hand being a census-designated place, none of them are subject to this naming convention. Nyttend (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree generally with Lou Sander about the confusion regarding this article. And strongly disagree with Nyttend regarding the supposed naming convention regarding Pennsylvania townships. This has been discussed and there was no consensus for such a convention, although Nyttend conveniently ignores this. older ≠ wiser 17:50, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nyttend: I believe you are incorrect about home rule municipalities simultaneously being boroughs or townships. There is no citation regarding this in the article you refer to, and the laws, as I read them, are very clear about it. Also, as far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a Wikipedia naming convention for Pennsylvania townships. Could you be more specific about why you think, after extensive long-ago work to change the name and organization of the Town of McCandless, that it is still McCandless Township? Lou Sander (talk) 18:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I already did. As noted elsewhere by solid sources, Bloomsburg is legally the only town in the state, regardless of what the local bigwigs want to say. Following discussion at the PA wikiproject to establish this naming convention, all PA townships were moved several years ago to these titles, but Bkonrad wheelwarred to put a few townships at titles that violate the convention, due to unenforceable discussions, despite clear provisions at WP:USPLACE:

Conventions for titles of articles about minor civil divisions vary from state to state. For example, articles on townships in Indiana are generally titled [[X Township, Y County, Indiana]] regardless of the need for the county name to disambiguate; articles on townships in New Jersey are generally titled [[X, New Jersey]] or [[X Township, New Jersey]] according to common usage. Any change in convention should be determined on a statewide basis.

This is a matter of following a naming convention to ensure that people be able to know what an article will be entitled; policy requires that this convention be followed. Nyttend (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No such documented naming convention for Pennsylvania townships exists. And before you talk about wheel-warring, take a good look in the mirror. You blithely disregard RM discussions to move pages to your imagined convention. older ≠ wiser
@Nyttend: "I already did" isn't a very satisfying answer. It has been very hard to follow your reasoning in recent posts, and I was hoping for some clarification. I am also hoping to see some evidence of the naming convention for Pennsylvania townships. I don't think there is one, but I have an open mind. BTW, I've found some material about HRMs retaining their "townshipness" or "boroughness". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be cited in and of the articles referenced in these discussions. I am tempted to cite it myself, but life is too short to deal with contentious editing situations. Lou Sander (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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