Talk:Menachem Begin

Why not accept the fact that "Irgun" was a terrorist organization?

The facts are there but still it is not accepted to put in the introduction that Irgun was a terrorist organization? Why? If murdering british soldiers and a swedish diplomat (Count Folke Bernadotte) isn't terrorism then what is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaya 35 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

There does seem to be a slant whereby Begin's and Irgun's self-serving claims about the warnings are accepted when more reliable sources make it clear that the warnings were not delivered to the authorities in time for most victims to have escaped.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Warning or not, placing bombs is a terrorist action, point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.1.28 (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

If this "the kidnapping and hanging of two British sergeants" is not terrorism then please tell me what it is!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.1.28 (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with you that Begin and the Irgun were terrorists. HoweverWikipedia:TERRORIST says that we should be careful of the use of such terminology. It needs to be attributed to particular WP:Reliable sources. Who is or is not a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder. As the government of South Africa changed, then what that state regarded as terrorist changed. Indeed if you look at Israeli official views of the Irgun, then the original left-leaning leadership proscribed Irgun as a terrorist group while the current prime minister, who is in the political tradition of Begin, praises them as freedom fighters. That is why we need to include who calls them terrorist rather than just state it as an objective title. Respected academic sources are the best to use. I think some can be found in the articles on the Irgun and the King David bombing.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I do not agree that: "Who is or is not a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder". Terrorism is a simple concept - the use of terror to achieve political goals. The test does not include any consideration of whether the goal is desired by the commentator or not. Bin Laden was a terrorist. Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. They may or may not also be "freedom fighters" or "nutcases". The motivation for the terrorists actions is irrelevant. Similarly American torture of political prisoners remains the torture of political prisoners, and does not become something else just because it may, or may not, be justifiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.201.32 (talk) 07:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The solution is surely simple. Since he was head of Irgun, which was operating at the time against the British forces in Palestine, why not just put in a sentence like: 'was as head of Irgun viewed as a terrorist by MI5 at the time'. The article on the King David Hotel bombing describes Irgun in such terms, and is sourced, and if it will do there then it would do here. Also, describing him in such terms provides counter-balance with the Yasser Arafat article, where Arafat is described in the introduction as 'reviled by many Israelis who viewed him as a terrorist', despite the fact that like Begin, Arafat too won the Nobel Peace Prize. Both were viewed as terrorists by some at some time. So in the interests of inter-article consistency I am going to add such a statement, taking the source from the King David Hotel bombing article. I hope no-one can logically object to that.1812ahill (talk) 12:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

To begin with, the sources have to be about Begin himself, not about the Irgun in general. Next, the fact that the British considered him to be a terrorist for 3 or 4 years is hardly worthy of mention in the lede, much less its first paragraph. Begin had a very long career, filled with all sorts of adventures and incidents; please review WP:UNDUE. Details belong in the article's body. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

With the logic of your 1st point you can then say that if I can't find a source stating specifically that Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, despite being the head of Al Quaida, for which I do have a source stating it as a terrorist organisation, and that he is the head of it, then I can't call Bin Laden a terrorist. To me that sounds dangerously like 'Hitler is not responsible for the murder of 6 million jews, because he never personally killed anyone and we haven't got his signature on any documents which ordered their deaths'. I profoundly disagree with you. Begin was head of Irgun. Irgun was considered a terrorist organisation by the law enforcement organisation in Palestine at the time and place that Irgun was active, and Begin was also present at that time and place as its leader, dishing out the orders. He was therefore a terrorist as far as the law enforcement agency in question was concerned. That is surely an acceptable statement. As for the rest of your points, I see what you are saying, but the lede is chronological, so it would have to go in the 1st paragraph, and the King David Hotel bombing is fundamental to the founding events of Israel and his involvement in Irgun is a fundamental part of both that and his life. Would he have had the later career he had without his leadership of Irgun? I doubt it. Just look at the life stories of most of the rest of the Iraeli leadership.

Finally is it surprising that we might not be able to find a specific 'reliable' source stating that Begin was once a terrorist. Doh, such things are not said in 'respectable' sources, i.e. the invariably pro Israeli western press or publishing houses in general, and certainly not about Nobel Peace Prize winning heads of states. Do Arabic sources count as verifiable and reliable? Nope, I didn't think so either. 1812ahill (talk) 01:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

What Jayjg wrote is quite reasonable and accords with WP policies; to discuss Begin's career as a terrorist, you need reliable sources which do the same thing. As a start, you could try a Google Books search (which would turn up results such as The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research). You'll also have to try to pull off the trick of writing neutrally, though.     ←   ZScarpia   03:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC) (11:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC): struck out remark which has caused offence)

I agree with what you are saying, however, surely it should in some way be reflected in the article that 'some' people (forget about MI5 in 1946), namely (I can't cite a reference for the following statement yet) a very large proportion of the 1+ billion Muslims in the world would consider the actions of Begin as head of Irgun during the mandate times to have been those of a terrorist? Until now, the only incidence of the word 'terrorist' in the entire article is when it is used in the sense of terrorism against Israel. This does not reflect a balanced view. So, by stating in the introduction that 'some' consider him a terrorist and providing a source (from an article by a PhD - who presumably would not write such things lightly) I am only abiding by one of Wikipedias 'prime directives', namely NPOV.1812ahill (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Btw, if I had uttered your last statement I would no doubt have been told WP:NPA by Jayjg.1812ahill (talk) 04:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful if you reviewed WP:V. Wikipedia does not care about the alleged opinions of millions or billions of unnamed individuals; rather, it cares only about the views of reliable sources. Also, I think you should review WP:TERRORIST. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I love Wikipedia dearly, and this whole episode has saddened me deeply. You know what got me onto this whole sorry bandwaggon in the 1st place? It was seeing the smug face of 'Sara Agassi' (sic) in interview with Jeremy Paxman. She was the Irgun member who scouted out the King David Hotel to determine where best to plant the bombs to bring down the building. There she was after all these years, in interview, expressing not a jot of remorse, or even regret for playing the part she did in killing the very people who fought and died to help save her 'chosen' people during WW2 and without whom the nation of Israel would never have existed in the 1st place. Instead, there was a certain arrogant pride and self-confidence about her actions. So, I thought, who is this woman, who in any other western civilised democracy would have been shunned, or at least remained very quiet lest she be prosecuted for her actions? I couldn't find anything about her under that name in Google, (I have since found out that she is known as 'Sarah Agassi' and is feted in Israeli as a bit of a heroine) but, knowing she was an Irgun member I started reading a bit about said organisation, and that is when I came across the name of Menachem Begin.

I have since been perplexed to find that the word 'terrorist' and 'Menachim Begin' appear to be mutually exclusive, despite framing my sourced contribution in mild terms, and then even milder terms, but alas, to no avail. I could even frame it milder: 'has been considered by some to have been in his early years a terrorist'. But I bet that wouldn't do either, sourced or otherwise. Instead I have run into disingenuous arguments that cite wikipedia policy in an attempt to whitewash history and disassociate anything and anyone to do with Israel from the word 'terrorist'. ZScarpia, a 217 page document about terrorism doesn't address the issue I'm talking about. Jayjg, WP:TERRORIST says next to nothing of relevance, and your citing WP:V and WP:VS if applied in the sense you are using it would lead to the collapse of the entire Wikipedia project. WP:UNDUE I don't buy either for reasons I've stated above. If I were to follow your logic I could nominate the article on for instance Herschel Grynszpan for AfD on the basis of WP:ONEEVENT. So, finally in what way is Amy Zalman, PhD not acceptable as a source stating that Begin was involved in terrorism. Is your verifiability criteria a written confession from Begin that he was a terrorist or something similar? I await your reply(ies) with interest.1812ahill (talk) 06:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

On second thoughts, forget it, I should know better than to get involved in contentious issues like terrorism and for whom the word is and isn't applicable. I'll bow out of this and go back to editing typos etc.1812ahill (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

1812ahill, I'm not against the article treating Begin's career as a terrorist, it's just that I think that if it's going to be done, it should be done well. There's not a lot of point of shoehorning the word terrorist into the article just for the sake of it being there. Something I'd like to see avoided because I think it would be tedious is the mere addition of lists of organisations, authors and books which take the view that Begin was a terrorist. Why they view him as a terrorist is the important thing. Also, the treatment should be neutral. For example, it should mention Begin and his supporters' defence, which was, I think, along the lines that their's was a just form of terrorism, freedom fighting, that they didn't target civilians (an untrue claim) and that, anyway, the British were the real terrorists because they were interning refugees in camps in Cyprus and not allowing unrestricted immigration. Any treatment should also be encyclopaedic in style. If you look, you'll see that you're really spoiled for choice for good sources. I'll help if you like. At the moment, the article either doesn't mention, or skims over, things that Begin is criticised for, such as the conduct of the Lebanon war (which was about more than the destruction of PLO camps, or pushing the PLO farther north, as the article - which, incidentally, fails to mention the role that the IDF played at Sabra and Shatila and, consequently, why Israel was condemned - currently states), policies regarding the occupied territories, ties with the Shah or Iran and ties with South Africa. Perhaps, treatments of those topics should be expanded or added in. For what it's worth, my opinion is that acts that the Irgun carried out, such as bombing market places, throwing bombs into civilian crowds and sending letter bombs (including, it's alleged, one to Konrad Adenauer in 1952), and things they planned to carry out, such as the poisoning of reservoirs, would be seen as terrorism by any reasonable and unbiased person. Perhaps, terrorism in a good cause, depending on your point of view, but still, in essence, very much what people tend to be talking about when they use the word.     ←   ZScarpia   02:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful reply! I think though that I should stick by my last post. After looking at e.g. your user talk page I see that you know way more than I do about this topic, particularly wrt the KDH bombings and no doubt have access to far better sources than I could get hold of. I see that user:Dlv999 (posting below) has some very useful source listed. Perhaps you can work on it with him/her - I gather from his/her user page that this is an area of particular interest to him/her too. Also, apologies about the WP:NPA post, I think I misunderstood what you meant.1812ahill (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as Sarah Agassi goes, the 2010 ynet article, "Then I saw a giant cloud – like in Hiroshima", explains her attitude: she believes the story that the Haganah fed the Irgun, that John Shaw ordered that no evacuation be carried out at the King David Hotel (saying, the British don't take orders from the Jews, the British give orders to the Jews), making the British responsible for the deaths. At the bottom of the article, it explains why she felt a bit betrayed by Begin.     ←   ZScarpia   02:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC) (edited 18:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC))

1. "Under Begin's command, the underground terrorist group Irgun carried out numerous acts of violence. In 1946 Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people. In 1948 it took part in the massacre of Arabs in the town of Deir Yassin - an incident that accelerated the Arab exodus from Palestine on the eve of the founding of Israel." Menachem Begin profile, BBC (April 1998)
2. "Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZI) 'National military organisation'. The IZI was a terrorist group active between 1937 and 1948, when they joined the Israel Defence Forces. It was led by Manachem Begin after ther death of its founder, David Raziel. It was, inter alia, responsible for blowing up the King David Hotel in 1946 (which housed the British military inteligence headquarters; 91 were killed, 45 injued) and the massacre of more than 200 Arabs in the villiage of Dier Yassin in 1948." pg 648 ; "Terrorists like Manachem Begin have ended up as winners of the Nobel Prize for Peace." pg 72. Alex P. Schmid (2011) The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research: Research, Theories and Concepts [1]
3. "The extremists, known as the Irgun Zvai Leumi, had formed in the 1930s to protect the Yishuv, or Jewish community in Palestine, from their Arab neighbours, but were now conducting terrorist attacks against the continued British occupation....By the end of the war, the estremists had broken into two camps: The Irgun headed by Manachem Begin....." pg 36 David C. Rapoport (2006) Terrorism: The second or anti-colonial wave [2]
4. "an unrepentant terrorist who won the Nobel Peace Prize, then launched another war." Silver, Eric (1984) Begin, the Haunted Prophet. quoted from NYT book review [3] and in The Nobel Peace Prize and the Laureates: An Illustrated Biographical History, 1901-2001 [4]
5. "The conservative Israeli government of Manachem Begin, once a terrorist himself......" Irwin Abrams (2001) The Nobel Peace Prize and the Laureates: An Illustrated Biographical History, 1901-2001 [5].
6. "Of course, Menachem Begin, who headed the Irgun and later became prime minister, was one of the most prominent Jewish terrorists in the years before Israeli independence. When speaking of Begin, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol often referred to him simply as "the terrorist".12"... "It was Jewish terrorists from the infamous Irgun, a militant Zionist group, who in late 1937 introduced into Palestine the now-familiar practice of placing bombs in buses and large crowds. Benny Morris speculates that "the Arabs may well have learned the value of terrorist bombings from the Jews.16" pg 102 John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, at 102 (Farrar, Straus and Giroux 2007). - NB this is actually the current citation for the lead.
7. "...together with a number of other prominent Jewish intelectuals, including Hannah Arendt and Sindey Hook, Einstein signed an open letter calling attention to what the group considered among "the most disturbing political phenomena of our times.."...Wishing to dispel the impression of American support for the party in the upcoming Israeli elections, the signatories protested the visit the visit to the United States of the party's leader, Menachem Begin, head of "the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvainist organisation in Palestine." Among other actions, the Irgun had perpetrated an atrocity....." pg 350 - David E. Rowe, Robert Schulmann (2007) Einstein on Politics: His Private Thoughts and Public Stands on Nationalism, Zionism, War, Peace, and the Bomb Dlv999 (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Resignation, or desertion, from the Anders' Army

At the moment there is some edit-reverting going on over whether Begin resigned or deserted from the Anders' Army (and over whether 3000 or 4000 other Jews also resigned or deserted). It's my understanding that the manner in which Begin left is disputed. Short of there being in existence documents which prove what happened one way or the other, I think that, if the article has to mention it at all, it should say that the circumstances are disputed. In any case, sources should be produced to verify what the article says (currently there are none). What the current version of the disputed text is claiming, that 3000 Jewish officers and men all officially resigned from the Anders' Army when they reached Palestine, does sound a bit unlikely to me.     ←   ZScarpia   18:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Results of Google Books search done on the term "desertion anders army -wikipedia".

The Oxford companion to World War II: "Men mostly deserted alone or with a few companions. Some of the 3000 Poles who deserted from 'Anders' Army when it arrived in Palestine subsequently joined Jewish resistance organizations (see stern gang and irgun) which fought the ..."

The Polish underground army, the Western allies, and the failure ... (Page 222): "The Poles were relatively sympathetic to the desertion of close to 2000 Polish Jews from Polish forces in the Middle East. ... But they add "most other Jewish refuges from Poland who had come to Palestine with the Anders Army shed their ..."

Memoirs from the Turbulent Years and Beyond (Page 72): "After Anders's army relocated to Palestine, the army faced the problem of increased rate of desertions of Jewish soldiers; most of them defected to fight for independent Israel. The most noted among them was Menachem Begin, ..."

    ←   ZScarpia   18:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as Begin being an officer in Anders' Army is concerned, these are the results of a Google Books search on the term 'anders army "menachem begin" officer -wikipedia'. As far as I can see, none of the results, including books specifically about Begin, confirm that he was actually an officer.     ←   ZScarpia   19:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the 4,000 number, I don't see any support for it. Regarding how Begin left "Anders' Army", most sources I've found are vague on the subject, or simply don't mention it, and those that do mention it seem to hold differing views. Harry Hurwitz writes in Menachem Begin (1977)

His friends now urged him to desert the Anders Army, but he refused to do any such dishonourable thing and waited until, as a result of negotiations, he was discharged and permitted to enter Eretz Israel, then under British mandatory rule.

Eitan Haber in Menachem Begin: The Legend and the Man (1979) also writes that Begin refused to desert, and that:

A while later Anders's Chief of Staff, General Ukolitzky [Okulicki - if you're going to try, at least get the spelling right], did agree to the release of six Jewish soldiers to go to the United States on a campaign to get the Jewish community to help the remnants of European Jewry. The Chief of Staff, who was well acquainted with Dr. Kahan, invited him to his office for a drink. There were a number of senior officers present, and Kahan realized that this was a farewell party for Ukolitzky. "I'm leaving here on a mission, and my colleagues are throwing a party but the last document I signed was an approval of release for Menahem Begin."

Amos Perlmutter cites the claim of Aryeh Ben-Eliezer and Mark Kahan that Begin was honorably discharged, but writes in The Life and Times of Menachem Begin (1987) that:

The truth is that he only received a one-year leave of absence, a kind of extended furlough, in order to enable him to join an Anders Army Jewish delegation which would go to the United States seeking help for the Polish government-in-exile. The delegation never materialized, mainly due to British opposition. Begin, however, never received an order to return to the ranks of the Army.

He continues by mentioning a Polish document indicating that Begin with the object of a search by some sort of Polish authorities, but I don't know more about that. Bernard Reich in writes in Political Leaders of the Contemporary Middle East and North Africa (1990) :

In 1942 he arrived in Palestine as a soldier in General Anders's (Polish) army. Begin was discharged from the army in December 1943.

The Begin Heritage Center states

At the initiative of Aryeh Ben-Eliezer and with the help of Mark Kahan, negotiations began with the Polish army regarding the release of five Jewish soldiers from the army, including Begin, in return for which the members of the IZL delegation would lobby in Washington for the Polish forces. The negotiations lasted many weeks until they finally met with success: The Polish commander announced the release of four of the soldiers. Fortunately, Begin was among them. Upon his release at the age of 30, Begin now faced what was perhaps the most important chapter in his life. He removed his Polish army uniform and became a “soldier without a uniform,” an underground fighter.[6]

So, the sources don't seem to agree, and the realities of formal authority during wartime, particularly for "Anders' Army" which at various times was under the authority of Władysław Anders, the Polish government-in-exile, the Soviet authorities, the British authorities, and/or all/none of the above, are likely complex. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The only good reason that I can see for mentioning the circumstances under which Begin left Anders' Free Polish Army are to forestall editors stating it as fact in future that he deserted. Whether some description would be included directly in the article or appended as a note, I have no particular views over how it should be worded or the amount of detail given so long as, if something has to be included, at least a brief mention that some sources claim that Begin deserted is given.

I think that the mention of other Jews leaving Anders' Army should be removed. The numbers are disputed, it's hardly of any relevance and it looks suspiciously like it's been included for derogatory reasons.

I think that the material on Begin being made an officer should probably be removed. I can't find any confirmation of it on the Web or in my copy of Haber's biography of Begin (which doesn't, though, detail anything about Begin's time in the army between enlisting and leaving).

    ←   ZScarpia   14:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you regarding the officer claim (the Begin Center states he was a corporal) and about the number of Jews deserting the army. Regarding the rest, I've put in a complete footnote for now, but I have to ask which reliable sources indicate he deserted? So far we have only the self-published personal memoirs of Hubert Poetschke, a retired civil engineer, which doesn't really qualify as a WP:RS. Do you have any others? We can ignore the "contributions" of 74.70.65.185 (talk · contribs), whose only interests appear to be insisting that Salomon Morel was not Polish, and that Begin deserted - he just added Yisrael Gutman, Jews in General Anders’ Army In the Soviet Union, Yad Vashem Studies, Vol. XII, Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, 1977 pp. 231-296 as a source that Begin deserted, but I searched the article, and it never even mentions Begin. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

From doing a brief Web search, the sources stating that Begin deserted which might pass muster as reliable for Wikipedia purposes include:

• The Oxford Companion to World War II (OUP, 2001): "He joined Anders' Army but deserted in Palestine and joined the Irgun, which he led from December 1943."
• Who is Menahem Begin?: A Documentary Sketch, Muʼassasat al-Dirāsāt al-Filasṭīnīyah, International Studies Section of the Institute for Palestine Studies, 1977: "In 1943, having deserted from the Polish Army, he became the commander of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, commonly known as Etzel, from the Hebrew initials, or simply as the Irgun."
• Profile - Menachem Begin, Walter Barker, ThirdWay magazine, April 1983: "In 1944, in Palestine, by which time an Allied victory was certain, Begin deserted from the Allied Forces and went underground to become the leader of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, an underground military movement, dedicated to establishing immediately a Jewish state in Palestine."

The Oxford Companion's article (a tertiary source, and therefore not ideal, I know) is curious as it gives Amos Perlmutter's The Life and Times of Menachem Begin as a source, yet Perlmutter states that Begin did not desert.

While searching, I came across another source which stated that Begin had been a corporal.

I'd like to state that I don't personally think that claims that Begin deserted are credible except perhaps in a very technical sense.

    ←   ZScarpia   19:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think these sources are strong, for various reasons, but Volunteer Marek's explanation below kind of supersedes this. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

From Stefan Korbonski [7]:

"Po wyjściu ze Związku Sowieckiego Armia Andersa przeszła przez Iran i w 1942 roku przybyła do Palestyny, gdzie żydowscy żołnierze musieli podjąć ważną decyzję: zostać w Palestynie, czy walczyć z nazistami we Włoszech. Generał Anders pomógł im w podjęciu decyzji, wydając poufne instrukcje dla polsko-żydowskich żołnierzy, którzy chcieliby zostać w Palestynie, że nie będą uważani za dezerterów. Około 3 tysiące żołnierzy postanowiło zostać, tysiąc pozostało w szeregach II Korpusu Wojska Polskiego, biorącego udział w kampanii włoskiej."

(My) translation: "After leaving the Soviet Union, the Anders Army traveled through Iran and in 1942 arrived in Palestine, where Jewish soldiers faced an important decision: to remain in Palestine or to fight the Nazis in Italy. General Anders facilitated their decision, by giving "poufne" (hard to translate - could be "secret", could be "personal" - VM) instructions to the Polish-Jewish soldiers who wished to stay in Palestine stating that they will not be considered as deserters (my emphasis - VM). Around 3000 soldiers decided to stay (in Palestine - VM), and a thousand remained in the ranks of the II Corps, taking part in the Italian campaign".

Then:

Kapral Menachem Begin podejmując decyzję, czy zostać czy walczyć z faszystami, stwierdził: "Armia, której mundur noszę i której składałem przysięgę wojskową, walczy ze śmiertelnym wrogiem narodu żydowskiego, faszystowskimi Niemcami. Nie można opuścić takiej armii, nawet po to, aby walczyć o wolność we własnym kraju."

"Corporal Menachem Begin, in taking the decision as to whether stay (in Palestine - VM) or fight against the fascists stated: "The Army, whose uniform I wear and to which I made soldiers' oath is engaged in a struggle against the deadly enemy of the Jewish nation, Nazi Germany. One should not leave this army, even to fight for freedom in one's own country"

So what happened? Well, it gets a bit more complicated. I don't want to translate the whole thing but basically, there were two other Poles in the Anders Army here, General Michał Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski (second in command of the Anders Army) who had, like Begin been imprisoned in a Soviet concentration camp (maybe same one?), and who had organized the underground anti-Nazi resistance in Poland, and Wiktor Tomir Drymmer, former Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs and, according to Korbonski, a "supporter of Zionist military organizations, Irgun and Haganah". Drymmer contacted Irgun (Irgun in turn sent a message to the Polish army staff instructing them to mark their vehicles with Polish emblems rather than British ones, so that the Irgun wouldn't attack them) and then asked Tokarzewski to release Begin from the Anders Army so that he could join the Irgun. Tokarzewski was sympathetic and as a result called Begin in and gave him a "vacation pass without an expiration date". Korbonski doesn't say it explicitly but it's somewhat suggested that technically, Tokarzewski didn't have the authority to release anyone from the service as they were all technically part of the British Army or something - hence this "vacation pass without an expiration date" was a way of getting around this regulation.

So, what we have is:

1. Begin had the rank of corporal.
2. Initially Begin did not want to leave the Anders Army.
3. He was persuaded to stay in Palestine by the Irgun and by Polish officers sympathetic to the Zionist cause.
4. He was given a more or less "official" permission to leave.

Based on some other stuff I read, basically, the Jewish rank-and-file soldiers who left mostly just deserted, with tacit approval from Anders and other Polish officers. The Jewish officers usually would come and inform their superiors that they were thinking about leaving and usually given some kind of "official" release.

Korbonski is a reliable source, expert on WWII (and he played a big role in the Polish underground) and one of the Righteous among the Nations.

Hope that helps.VolunteerMarek 20:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not sure about the British or American system, but in the Polish army of the time a corporal would be a non-commissioned officer.VolunteerMarek 21:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the research. So, how should we summarize all that in the article? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

On the rank issue just say he was a corporal - I do think this is somewhat notable.

On the "leaving issue" how about something like:

"Upon arriving in Palestine, Begin, like many other Polish-Jewish soldiers of the Anders' Army faced a difficult choice between remaining with the Anders Army to fight Nazi Germany in Europe, or staying in Palestine to fight for establishment of the Israeli state. While initially he wished to remain with the Polish army, he was eventually persuaded to change his mind by his contacts in the Irgun, as well as Polish officers sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Consequently, General Michal Tokarzewski, the second in command of the Army issued Begin with a "leave of absence without an expiration" which gave Begin official permission to stay in Palestine."

That might be a little too detailed and could use tweaking. But putting in the details will prevent (somewhat, possibly) anon IPs or what have you from putting in the "deserted" stuff.VolunteerMarek 17:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've added more-or-less your text, along with the Korboński source and a couple of quotes from the original Polish. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Begin's rank in Anders Army, and his leaving it

General Anders had to overcome considerable opposition in the Soviet Union to including Jewish citizens of pre-war Poland in the exodus, including 'advice' given him by Stalin himself. The exact circumstances of his leaving the army will never be known, as they were shrouded in secrecy to prevent British interference. Begin's rank was 'kapral podchorazy', or corporal-officer cadet, a slightly lower-status version of which he had at the beginning of the war, [see photo of M.B. in pre-war uniform] and was the major contrbutory factor to his arrest by the NKVD. This rank conferred many of the privileges of officer rank, and was treated with great seriousness by those brought up in pre-war Poland, as was Prime Minister Begin. To sum up then: nothing in the subject's make-up suggests he would ever consider, or consider himself, a deserter. as for ennumerating the number of those who left, the same caveats about secrecy at the time apply. How this could be seen as derogatory is beyond me. The best guess is still 2000-3000, of whom a great number would have both the military and politicalskills and experience to enrich the nascent Jewish struggle.86.12.129.12 (talk) 10:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I used the term "derogatory" because I was assuming that, when the reference to 1000s of others leaving the Army was made, it was being used as a kind of smear. After all, there can't be many sources, if any which claim that so many Jewish soldiers all resigned, as the article was claiming. Not even Begin resigned, according to the best sources we have. These say that he was given leave of absence.     ←   ZScarpia   17:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The leave of absence was clearly a device to save honor on all sides. The truth is, we'll never know the full facts; concealed at the time, no living witnesses remain. My only concern is to illuminate M.B.'s character traits. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 17:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Bear in mind, if you're not doing so, that Begin was both loved and loathed. If you want to write about what sources say which illuminates Begin's character traits, you should be prepared to write about what they say which illuminates less admirable traits as well as admirable ones. Personally, I prefer statements whose intent is just to state facts rather to serve purposes such as illuminating things. Hope the tone of that wasn't too preachy.     ←   ZScarpia   18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The numbers for those that left that I've seen range from 2000 to 4000, with most between 3k and 4k. As I mentioned above the "general" picture is that officers were usually given some kind of semi-official or unofficial permission to leave (again, since the army was technically under British command at the time, the Polish officers didn't really have the authority to relieve those who wanted to leave of their military oath), while for privates there was tacit approval and just plain ol' "looking the other way". It's probably a good idea to leave idle speculation as to motives, or subjective assessments of what to call this out of the article.VolunteerMarek 17:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and thanks for explaining all the detail.     ←   ZScarpia   17:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, some of those who left would have been criminals, opportunists and cowards - that's certainly how they were viewed by the British Mandatory authorities. It was not how most of them were viewed by the Poles, and certainly no-one could aim such an accusation at Menachem Begin. I think this period and his actions have been as clearly explained as possible in the article thus far. I do think, however, that his actions and initiatives in the pre-war period might benefit from more detail. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Leaving Warsaw

A large number of politically influential Jewish leaders left Warsaw as the siege began, fearing arrest, hoping to find at least temporary shelter in the Soviet zone of occupation to the East. This led to a crisis for Warsaw's Jewry, and led to Presiding Mayor Starzynski offering the leadership role to the highly respected Senator Czerniakow. This role was later confirmed by the German Commissioner-Mayor. Of course no sane human being could have foreseen the eventual fate of those Jews who stayed in the capital. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)