Talk:Menzies Campbell

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Privy Councillor and job title[edit]

Can anyone tell me why he has the "Right Honourable" prefix before his name? He's a member of the Privy Council then? I thought that was only for people who had been a member of the Cabinet.

If he is the Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats why isn't he the SHadow Deputy Prime Minister as well.

In answer to these questions, I can tell you first that the term "Right Honourable" is indeed preserved for members of the Privy Council; however membership of that body is not solely conferred on cabinet members. If you wish to discover how Sir Menzies came to be a member of that body, however, I'd ask you to look farther afield, as I've not the inclination to go beyond a quick google. As regards the title "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister", I suspect that there is no such post, as DPM is pretty much an honorary title, associated with no department. He is instead shadow minister for the department for which he holds portfolio.
To clarify, there is no such post as Shadow DPM, the post is "Office of the DMP". Campbell is not a member of the official opposition, so he could not be referred to as Shadow anyway, just as the Home Affairs spokesman for the LD's could not be called Shadow Home Secretary.
Yes, the official opposition is the Conservative party.
To further clarify, although the LDs are not the "official" opposition, since the party decided to operate a Shadow Cabinet all members appointed to that office have been allowed the term "Shadow". There is a Shadow Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, currently occupied by Sarah Teather MP. See http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/libdems.cfm. Campbell is listed as "Deputy Leader and Shadow Foreign Secretary".

In answer to the question above, he is a Privy Councillor because the Prime Minister as a gesture to his standing in the House advised the Queen to make him one. Adam 06:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Right Honourable (as used in Wikipedia)[edit]

He is a member of the Privy Council. However a fairly new policy detailed at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) states that we don't use The Right Honourable at the start of the article. It is quite correct to leave it in the picture caption, and the article mentions that he is a member of the Privy Council later in the text too. JRawle 17:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but in that case shouldn't PC be added after his name? (One does not, of course, use both "Rt Hon" and "PC" – see discussion ad nauseam at Ian Paisley among others – but if the one is being excluded, the other ought to be included.) Vilcxjo 22:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, because PC is only used for peers (who are already entitled to The Rt Hon anyway). I did try to argue at one stage that the prefix should be retained for privy counsellors, but that wasn't what people finally ageed on. So the mention of the privy council in the article, and Rt Hon in the caption will have to suffice. JRawle 00:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Knighthood[edit]

Would it be incorrect to insert the "Kt." postnominal in his styles and titles? After being ennobled it seems that there is no indication of his knighthood since he is a Knight Bachelor rather than a member of one of the orders. NDomer09 (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is he still officially Deputy Leader?[edit]

The introduction is unclear as to whether Ming is currently formally the Deputy Leader acting as leader whilst the post of Leader is vacant or somehow has been automatically become Leader. If he doesn't win the leadership election will he still be Deputy Leader or would there have to be a fresh official election (of MPs if I remember correctly) even if just to reappoint him? Timrollpickering 03:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that he is no longer deputy leader, as when the contest is over he will have to be officially re-appointed to the post (if he is not leader). Does anybody know the official stance on this, as if he is not DL any more, this needs to be removed from the front page. Mikeroberts 11:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strictly, there is no position of Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats. The position is Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons. Equally strictly, following the resignation of Charles Kennedy as Leader of the Liberal Democrats (and therefore ex-officio Leader of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons) Ming is now acting as Leader of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons. The distinction between the Federal Party - "the Liberal Democrats" - and the Parliamentary Party in the House of Commons is often blurred in ordinary language, but the absolutely strict usage is that only an elected Leader is an officer of both bodies ex-officio and so officers of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons should be qualified in some way. Perhaps the strictest terminology would be "Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons and acting leader thereof" but that's unbelievably cumbersome. Still, the point is that the Federal Party doesn't have a Deputy Leader or an acting leader. For instance, Ming doesn't get a seat on the Federal Executive or the Federal Policy Committee as acting leader; the Leader's seat is vacant. OTOH, he does get to ask questions in Prime Minister's Question Time, as that's a prerogative of the Leader of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons. Unless elected leader, he would (be entitled to) continue as Deputy Leader as far as I know, though you'd need to see the Standing Orders of the Parliamentary Party of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons to be sure.--Po8crg 02:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Federal party? Federal Executive? Federal Policy Committee? When did the UK become a federation? Adam 02:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think the party is federal. Markyour words 09:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's right, the Liberal Democrats are a Federal Party, comprising three State Parties: The Liberal Democrats in England, Scottish Liberal Democrats and Democratiad Rhyffrydol Cymru. --Po8crg 20:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the Lib Dems can use whatever terminology they like, but England, Scotland and Wales are not "states" of a federation. Scotland and Wales are devolved regions, while England in a constitutional sense doesn't exist. Adam 01:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that the party, in its internal structures, is a federation. --Po8crg 09:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His name and style[edit]

A question of my own: I know little enough Scots, so wouldn't dream of asserting that the IPA transcription of his name is incorrect, but can someone please confirm that it is indeed [mɪŋɪs] rather than [mɪŋgɪs]? Ta.

Yes. ;) Mark1 17:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt ""Menzies" is correctly pronounced mingis (IPA: /ˈmɪŋɪs/ or /ˈmɪŋgɪs/)." But is that how HE pronounces it? I note that the BBC pronounces it Men-zeez.

I've never been so unfortunate as to have heard someone on the BBC pronouncing it Men-zeez, though I don't doubt that it might have happened. Nine times out of ten they just call him Ming, and occasionally Mingis. Mark1 10:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the World Service doesn't have such high standards. I am glad to have the matter clarified. In Australia of course the pronunciation Men-zeez is standard, although Sir Robert Menzies enjoyed being called Ming the Merciless. Adam 10:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where on earth does the name come from? The poor guy. I always pronounched it Men-zeez until recently, and when I was told it was Mingis I thought it was a joke. :D

It is an old language thing - I can't recall the details. Historically the 'z' isn't a z but stands in for a letter that makes a 'yi' sound. It is also found in Culzean and Dalziel (as in Dalziel and Pascoe) and Lenzie (although no-one pronounces it in Lenzie). I'll try to find a link to the proper linguistic stuff later. --Doc ask? 20:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yogh not Yoghurt MeltBanana 20:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So how should Dalziel and Lenzie be pronounced? British names are a nightmare for the rest of the world. Adam 05:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the 'z' is sort of silent or a 'yi' sound in some proper names (e.g. Culzean = 'Cul-ain', Dalziel = 'Dee-el', Menzies = 'Ming-is'). see [1]. Actually, this is very rare (I can't think of any other cases beyond there three) - and since it is only in a very few names, most Scots either just remember those names, or get it wrong. --Doc ask? 11:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lenzie is technically another of these z's, but everyone (including residents) simply pronounces it as it sounds. --Doc ask? 11:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Menzies is his middle name; he will have been called by it if a member of his family, likely his father, shared his first name. It must have just stuck. It is 'ming-is', shortened by all to 'ming'. It definitely, definitely is not 'men-sees'.--Zhengfu 18:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does anybody have a reference to back up his first name being Walter? I've found one link, [2], but this interview seems to contradict the fact [3].--Matsho 10:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do a Google search for "walter menzies campbell" - there are pages of links (Hansard votes in Parliament, a list of members of the Privy Council, The Telegraph and the BBC and even the London Gazette reporting the New Years Honours list, lists of election candidates and results, etc. etc.) -- ALoan (Talk) 11:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See [[4]] for info on pronunciation. Sbz5809 13:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As noted in the comment in the intro (from someone else), he calls himself "Ming Campbell" on his website, and the press commonly refer to him as "Ming". So he uses it and the press uses it, so I put it as "commonly known as." I saw First Post refer to his danger to the Tories as "the Ming Sting" just now, for example. What do his friends and close associates call him? - David Gerard 23:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ming the Merciless[edit]

See [[5]] this, from the Sunday Times. First words: 'Dubbed "Ming the Merciless" by cartoonists'. Sbz5809 13:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Steve Bell [6], BBC News [7] and in their newspaper roundup [8], Daily Record [9]. Remains to be seen if this is a flash in the pan nickname, or if it catches on and sticks with him. Average Earthman 11:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I presume it is ironic, since he seems in fact to be a nice old boy. Bob Menzies really was Ming the Merciless. Adam 11:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One of the great tragedies for recent British cartoonists has been that this rather obvious joke is so totally at odds with his character. But all their prayers were answered when he assassinated Kennedy. Mark1 12:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, our Ming is a redirect to Ming Dynasty. I can't help thinking that we ought to have a disambiguation page for this Ming, Ming the Merciless and any other mings we can think of (minger?). -- ALoan (Talk) 12:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Btw - I have added a wodge of BBC reports which act as references for many of the facts mentioned in our article. Someone knowledgeable could add <ref> or {{ref}}/{{fn}} thingies... -- ALoan (Talk) 12:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A lively young damsel named Menzies
Inquired: "Do you know what this thenzies?"
Her aunt, with a gasp,
Replied: "It's a wasp,
And you're holding the end where the stenzies."

Adam 11:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

oops - sorry for cocking up the date of the election, thanks to whomever fixed it :D jamesgibbon 15:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

STV, IRV, AV, etc.[edit]

Instant-Runoff Voting is a term used principally in the United States. I think it's obvious that this article is and should be written in British English. The IRV article itself says that it's usually called Alternative Vote in the UK. Obviously, the link could read [[Instant-Runoff Voting|Alternative Vote]] but I prefer calling it Single Transferable Vote for the following reasions:

  • Single Transferable Vote for a single-winner election and IRV/AV are the same system.
  • The Liberal Democrats officially referred to the election as STV, not AV.
  • The vast majority of media references that mentioned the system called it STV.
  • The same is true of internet references during the election, for instance, look through the archives of the blogs on http://www.libdemblogs.co.uk/
  • The Liberal Democrats conduct all internal elections, both multi-winner and single-winner by STV, so this is a case where it really was a single-winner STV election, not an AV election.

Richard Gadsden 06:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. The section of the Liberal Democrat Constitution covering the leader's election says 'Any election rules must provide for elections to be by STV and secret ballot'. Mpntod 07:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CBE or KBE?[edit]

Menzies Campbell is a Knight Bachelor, which is not the same as a Kinght Commander of the British Empire. See [[10]]. All the web references are to Sir Menzies Campbell CBE, not KBE.

Beliefs???[edit]

This article makes no mention of his political beliefs whatsoever. Is he part of the social-liberal or economic-liberal wing of the party? Or neither? Presumably, this deficiency is due to a lack of information on the subject... 195.195.166.31 21:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've made an attempt at a section on Ming's beliefs, based on the speeches and comment pieces I linked to. What do people think? The "moderate social liberal" summary seems appropriate to me: he's clearly no radical free marketeer, and spends a lot of time talking about poverty and inequality; but "social liberal" alone fails to distinguish him adequately from someone like Simon Hughes, who fought the leadership election on a platform clearly to the left of Ming and Chris Huhne. - Modernway, 14:50, 3 August 2006

I've made some changes to the previous edit to the beliefs section: "moderate social liberal" is still more appropriate then "strong social liberal" (see above); I don't understand what the difference between "correcting" and "preventing" a market failure is, but economists use the former term; and there's no need to link to European Union and United Nations twice in the same paragraph. Hope none of that's too controversial! - Modernway, 18:51, 22 August 2006

Is beliefs the right heading here? Wouldn't "political views" or "political positions" be a more accurate reflection of the topic? QuakerActivist (talk) 12:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

away from goods [...] and towards bads
Are you sure using grammatically plural adjectives is even English? Nuttyskin (talk) 21:51, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Military service?[edit]

Did Menzies Cambell serve in any branch of the British armed forces? In what capacity?--TGC55 21:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have just emailed his office to ask them, you made me curious about it. Hopefully they will get back to me:)Merkinsmum 10:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They said: "Sir Menzies was enrolled at university by the time National Service ended in this country on the 31st December 1960, and as a result he was not conscripted into the armed forces."Merkinsmum 14:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Khatami degree[edit]

His decision to award a honorary doctorate of law to former President Khatami of Iran sparked widespread critique.[11][12] [13]

How exactly was it Ming's decision? Surely this would have been a decision by whichever body in the University of St Andrews nominates people for honourary degrees, rather than the Chancellor directly exercising power? Timrollpickering 04:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeed. In fact, Ming eventually didn't even confer the degree on Khatami - last minute changes left it down to the Vice Chancellor, Brian Lang, who was certainly the figure in the spotlight when defending the decision.Rlfb 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inline citations[edit]

I've gone through and replaced all the lightblue links with inline citations. The article looks alot neater now. JameiLei 23:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Return to practice as advocate in January 2008[edit]

The lasrt editor deleted the refernce to the fact that Ming returned to practice in a men-only set of advocates as being POV. This is, however, a fact which can be verified from the link provided. The Faculty of Advocates website will further confirm that the group in question is unique in Scotland as being men-only; all other stables or chambers have substantial numbers of women. A fact, even if uncomfortable, is not POV, although comment on that fact might well be! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.13.113 (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Faculty of Advocates list of stables (chambers) shows the membership of every chambers/stable in Scotland. These vouch the statement that Campbell’s chambers is men-only and that this is unique in the Scottish bar, as all others have a number of women members. 217.28.34.132 (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but I amended the link to a specific page about Terra Firma, which retains the links to other chambers. Viewfinder (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Style[edit]

Should his title be suffixed also by MP? I can think of no reason to preclude it... Hypnoticmonkey (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External links[edit]

The External links section has lots of BBC News articles that are surely more references than external links? Does anyone agree this needs tidying and if so anyone have time to do it?Biscit (talk) 10:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, tagged it to encourage slimming them down. Widefox; talk 21:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment[edit]

I've changed the assessment of this article from "Start" to "C"; and I think it is very close to "B". I think most sections could be expanded, but other than that it's looking good. --h2g2bob (talk) 18:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation[edit]

We give /ˈmɪŋɨs/, but according to the Menzies page, "The name is correctly pronounced [ˈmɪŋɪz]". Should it be /s/ or /z/? Lfh (talk) 11:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Ennoblement[edit]

There appears to be some confusion about when he is to be ennobled. Parliament.uk says he "joined the Lords" on 13 October but he is not actually being introduced until 5 November. Generally the Letters Patent are dated the same day or the day before. So I am not convinced that the Queen has actually made him a baron yet... Mark Hamid (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have been advised means that "joined the Lords" means that the Letters Patent have been signed by HM The Queen so he is now a peer although not introduced yet. Mark Hamid (talk) 08:40, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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