Talk:Messianic Judaism

Another good revert

DekmMike, I hate to say it but Jayjg's latest reversion was even more justified. That paragraph on "False Messianism" was clearly NPOV and OR, was the "text" in the ref footnote really in the source? The later Kansas City Jewish Chronicle source might be okay, but still looks POVish. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

In no way was that OR - it was clearly Neutral POV, reporting sources respected in the Messianic community. The first was a response by UMJC & MJAA to someone calling himself Messianic; others condemned the action, but the words from these the two largest groups said clearly that Messer was "operating entirely outside the mainstream Messianic Jewish community." What header would you use? The second edit was sourced, but Brickner's paper wasn't sourced with a hyperlink to the KCJC; I did find the story available from the Jewish Agency for Israel site (http://www.jafi.org.il/JewishAgency/English/About/Press+Room/Jewish+Agency+In+The+News/2006/2/feb17jc.html, word for word.--DeknMike (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect. This sentence "Some within the Christian community have adopted Messianic forms and music without understanding of the core theology or sensitivity to the essential Jewish nature of the faith" makes Wikipedia appear to take the position that there is an "essential Jewish nature" to Messianism. That is classic WP:NPOV. Wikipedia must mirror what already in reliable sources in accordance with how the sources themselves are, and it is very clear from all the verifiable sources we have that the position that there is an "essential Jewish nature" to Messianism is exclusive to a very small group of people and vastly outweighed by the positions that Messianism is merely another branch of Christianity that has taken on some of Judaism's traditions. -- Avi (talk) 06:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

DeknMike, apologies but if you can't see why "False Messianism" isn't a POV section heading (let alone content) sorry but I'll leave it to others to explain it or not; If UMJC & MJAA are notable (yes), and if the person they are criticizing is notable (?), and if the subject is notable (??), then maybe there'll be a 3rd party source. Otherwise... is this even encyclopaedic content?

Plus what Avi says above is correct, approximately for the reasons Avi gives. Although if the article had supplied already sources to demonstrate that there is something "essentially Jewish" about Messianic Judaism (I would suggest that there is - selective adoption of cultural elements of rabbinical Judaism, selective retention of some elements of the worship of Ancient Israel) it would be a less POV statement. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I ask again, what heading would this editing board put for the sourced material? As for the "essential Jewish nature of the faith" comment, it is widespread throughout the movement. As I have said many times, although 'some' disagree with the sources, the bulk of information from within the movement suggests mainstream MJ is Jewish at its core with additional theology that is common with Christian churches. This particular edit is about Christians who add a little knowledge about Judaism to their church and call themselves messianic. --DeknMike (talk) 07:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A possible heading would be UMJC and MJAA definition of "Messianic", if, as it seems missing, it would be better to go back 10 steps and find a source that tells the reader what UMJC & MJAA consider to define "Messianic" in the first place. Only THEN it makes sense to note that some over Messianic-ish fellow-Christian wasn't "Messianic" enough for UMJC and MJAA. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

"syncretic"

I was reminded by DeknMik's edit "essential Jewish nature" and Avi's reply, of the presence of the word "syncretic" in the lede, when both Judaism and Christianity are themselves "syncretic" compounds of all kinds of Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian ideas, that this article has "syncretic" in the first sentence, but Judaism and Christianity don't. I note this in passing... In ictu oculi (talk) 06:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

"God the Son"

The recent placing of the item on Jesus as "the Son" (as deity, capitalized) into the lede brought to my attention the fact that the article states something that, while generally true, I don't think can be given as representative of the entire movement. There is a much larger section, proportionally speaking, of Messianic Judaism that objects to Trinitarian doctrine than there is in mainstream Christianity. As is, the Christianity article doesn't even mention the "Son" title, other than in the phrase "son of God", so I hardly think this article should mention it, particularly in the lede. I would say we should retain its use within the body of the article, but with the disclaimer that it's not a unanimous position within the movement. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 11:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That statement is based on a source (pg 170 of Sherbok, IIRC) and thus cannot be changed unless the original source used the word "generally" in which case of course it should go there. -- Avi (talk) 03:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

With due respect, that's patently false. The original source is not being used to support a statement that the original source believes a certain thing; it is phrased as being representative as the movement as a whole. My edits misrepresented nothing about the source, but as it stands the article does misrepresent the movement as monolithically Trinitarian. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 03:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Evanh2008, the original source rules out "generally" - unless "united" is wrong:

Regarding the doctrine of God, Messianic Jews are united in their belief in the Trinity. Dan Cohn-Sherbok Messianic Judaism p170 (2000)

We have had this issue arise before. The problem is that the sources do represent the movement as Trinitarian. It isn't a misrepresentation unless there are some sources stating the opposite. FWIW I do know, anecdotally, that there is at least one pocket of Unitarians in Tel Aviv, who by default are יהודים משיחיים in Israel (given that נוצרים carries a bit of history), but Unitarians wouldn't count themselves "Messianic Jews" in the American sense. To date I'm not even aware of Arian MJ web churches (one man, his laptop and his dog) which claim to be both Arian and "Messianic Judaism." I think what you need is an actual example "In Dallas 20 members were excommunicated from a MJ church for denying the Trinity and set up their own church" + source: Dallas-Fort Worth News 1999, or something. In other words more than a previous Scandinavian editor on this talk page who legitimately said "I know a Jewish-Christian guy who has antitrinitarian blog" owtte. Great, but not WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I see your point. There are at least two groups of what westerners would consider "Messianics" that are really established in Israel. The one in Tel Aviv that you mentioned, and one based in Ra'anana that actually has some limited support from Orthodox rabbis. That's off-topic, though. Anyway, I think it's worth noting that the reference to JerusalemCouncil.org, which is currently being cited in support of Trinitarian ubiquity, explicitly disclaims any belief in the Trinity, if you actually read it all the way to the end. If Jerusalem Council's site is reliable enough to cite Trinitarianism, then I'm certain I can cite enough to make a mention of the non-Trins among the group. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 04:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Evanh8, if you can identify, source, a group in either Israel or US please go ahead. But just a clarification - there is a difference between being called משיחיי in Israel and calling oneself "Messianic" in USA. Palestinian Christians also prefer to be called meshihiy rather than notzri (Hebrew) or masihi rather than nasrani (Arabic), it does not mean that they would celebrate Jewish festivals or have much in common with Messianic Judaism. The term yahudim meshiyiym can be translated both "Jewish Christians" and "Messianic Jews" according to taste - but the sources in this article suggest that in English those aren't the same thing. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello, everyone. Sorry to have been out of touch; I've been doing a lot of research and also some other stuff. I will shortly be making some (sourced) changes to the lede to reflect the presence of non-trinitarian teachings within the movement. I hope we can work together to make this article better. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 20:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)