Talk:Mexicans of European descent

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Improve the Article[edit]

The article as I read it today is unencyclopedic and ambiguous begging many questions and assuming many things. For one thing, which white-Mexicans are we talking about? Does the article deal with the historical descendants of the first Spaniards that came to Mexico? Because if that is the case those so called "white-Mexicans" (Criollos) would fall under the category of Ethnic Mexicans since they share 100% in the Mexican culture and identify solidly as Mexicans and not as Spaniards or any type of European just as the rest of the Mexican Mestizo and Indigenous population. The article seems to speak of Criollos and newly arrived immigrants all in the same breath as if they are equal. This is not the case in the Mexican mindset or society, many patriotic "white-Mexican" would be outraged at the idea of being made equal to foreigners in Mexican soil who are just here for the ride. As in the U.S. recent immigrants in Mexico from European countries live in their own neighborhoods and colonies thus constituting as Mexicans by Citizenship, as opposed to Ethnic Mexicans. This article should at least have two separate parts:

  • one that deals with Criollos as being Mexicans by cultural/ethnic identity
  • and the other that deals with recent immigrants who have Mexican citizenship but are not fully integrated into the Mexican identity and live among Mexican society as foreigners.

Most of all... this article's tone seems to be operating on the premises of the old colonial mentality of the 18th century where everyone was meticulously divided into every shade of color perceivable to the human eye along with the racist one drop rule as it was known by the Spanish where as more drops of "white" blood were in you the more "white" you became. I don't need to say how this is all monkey feces in the eyes of science. Here we are dealing with sociology, NOT some sort of social astrology, thus we need to incorporate such disciplines as Anthropology (Culture, Sociology) and Ethnography (Admixture, customs, legacy). There must also be awareness of the racist tendencies in Mexican society where "white" is seen as far more desirable and many in the society tend to unconsciously behave in ways that favor a "white" image of themselves. As many here in the discussion have already mentioned, the Mexican media and Telenovelas try to portray Mexico as a white European nation to the extent of absurdity: [1][2][3][4]. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I, and i'm sure most "white Mexicans", whether from recent immigration or not, would have to disagree. I am of Italian descent from my dad's side, yet i am, and consider myself Mexican first and foremost. If you don't see it that way, there's nothing i can do to change your point of view, but the article cannot be based on an opinion either. What would outrage white Mexicans is if they were ignored and/or denied of their existence, claiming everyone in Mexico is either mestizo or Amerindian. -- Lancini87 (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
That is why I propose that we be more specific, and encyclopedic, about what the article presents... In the case of indigenous Mexicans it is quite easy to categorize and write about; but with the subject of "white Mexicans" it's very tricky and ambiguous just as with the idea of "Latino" where everyone has their own opinion of what it means and there is no formal or common consensus of what it actually is. Does the term "White Mexicans" speak of only the Mexican nationality or Mexican ethnicity? Take Germans for example, they differentiate between ethnic Germans and Germans citizens. With Mexicans it is obvious that some are Mexican by ethnicity and legacy even if they lose their citizenship to the nation of Mexico and become acculturated into another while others are Mexican only by citizenship but have no legacy or ethnic ties to Mexico itself. I dare to say Thalia, Julio Iglesias and Luis Miguel can be a prime examples of being Mexican citizens and acculturated as Mexicans but they aren't ethnic Mexicans such as Juan Gabriel, Vicente Fernández, and Pepe Aguilar (born in Texas) who are Mexicans by ethnicity despite Pepe being born outside Mexico and being "white" along with Vicente Fernández. This is why I say we need to specify between "white Mexicans" who are considered Ethnic Mexicans (Criollos) and the others who are just recent 1st or 2nd generation immigrants living in Mexico and have become Mexican Citizens but not necessarily adopted a Mexican identity. It's all about background and the degree of culture, what backgrounds are we speaking of? Are they descendants of Criollos who have been in Mexico for centuries and know of no other identity or loyalty or are they recent immigrants with varying degrees of acculturation? These should be two separate categories in order to avoid the confusion and better explain the situation. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 20:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I think i know where youre going... The intro clearly says the article is about white Mexican citizens. People born outside the country of white Mexican descent are obviously excluded, and i don't agree with "This is why I say we need to specify between "white Mexicans" who are considered Ethnic Mexicans (Criollos) and the others who are just recent 1st or 2nd generation immigrants living in Mexico and have become Mexican Citizens but not necessarily adopted a Mexican identity.", because, like i said before, i have "recent" Italian descent, yet that does not make me any less Mexican than you, but again, the article cannot be based on opinions. Whether or not you agree, the more recent European descendants are no different than the criollos with colonial ties, since they are both white and Mexican. In the end, that's what the article is about, so we shouldn't discriminate. -- Lancini87 (talk) 00:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
So if we are excluding Mexican criollos born outside of Mexico then Mexicans such as Pepe Aguilar won't be counted here which would be absurd and confusing. The article just clearly seems to be written from an outsider's perspective and not by the point of view of Mexicans themselves who have a very different criteria of who Criollos are. But then again the Article is about "white Mexicans" and not "Mexican Criollos." Someone will probably get the idea to create a separate article that deals specifically with Mexican Criollos since this articles conglomerates them with other groups and doesn't do them justice. This is already looking like it's going to be a mess. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 03:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Do realize that we the article is about the white population of Mexico, not the United States or elsewhere white Mexican descendants were born. Those countries have such articles too, so they will most likely be counted there. It's just like the Indigenous Mexican and other articles about specific ethnic populations within a specific country. I suppose a section can be added about the history of Mexican criollos if you like. -- Lancini87 (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I see what you are saying now... I don't think it will be necessary to make Mexican Criollos into their own article because they are already included in the Mexican people article and they are counted among the diaspora and will be included in the History. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 17:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection[edit]

I suggest this page to be semi-protected due to the high level of vandalism. People just write plain rubbish such as: "98% of the White Mexican population is Mestizo, but their European genes are predominant" This is not only unsourced information but simply nonsense. Most Argentines, Americans and Chilians have indigenous genes but we never make such silly remarks in order to make them look more amerindian. Mexico is a country with large communities of foreign migrants, the US communty alone is about one million, followed by Canadians, French, Germans, etc. So these kind of comments are a slap in the face of all the migrants in Mexico. Also the remark: "In Mexico the White Mexican's (sic) are very wealthy and usually considered to be on the top of the status", again, an unsourced one, is nothing but an example of childish and complexed amerindian/mestizo nationalism. This is a serious encyclopedia and not a soapbox for unsourced and highly POV-motivated opinions.--Scandza (talk) 11:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is a complete waste of time. It is pointless and useless save for racial profiling. I suggest it should be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.41.173 (talk) 17:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

What an irrelevant, useless and misleading article. It is definitely non encyclopedic and lacks a real source, the sources provided are about info used in the article, but not about the article. It is definitely original research. I also suggest removal. --201.103.170.153 (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Who aren't white[edit]

Salma Hayek and Gael Garcia Bernal are not white. previous unsigned comment by 201.43.150.77

If Gael Garcia Bernal isn't white, then what race is he? He is obviously not Amerindian. Kman543210 (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

He is a mestizo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.150.77 (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibly castizo, but doubtful that he's mestizo. Kman543210 (talk) 14:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
No one is pure these days, but Gael could easily pass for a southern European. There's no doubt about that. Anahi is also white, but just not as notable as Gael, so please quit reverting. - Lancini87 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This stubborn person is under different IP Addresses, it's getting really annoying. There should be a way to block anonymous users. - Lancini87 (talk) 22:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You won, but Gael Garcia will never be white, he is a mestizo.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.27.171.10 (talk) 01:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Gael Garcia is from Guadalajara, where there are a lot of Mexicans with European background--including a lot of blonds. Salma Hayek is a light brown--I've met her personally twice. Her facial features are her mothers mostly, thus linked straight to southern Europe. People who are that light in Mexico usually gather mostly with Mexican whites. What I mean is, even though she is a racial combination, she's got very strong European connection, more so than anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfonsomedina1 (talk) 17:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah this unanimous unsigned person is stubborn doesn't want to face reality that his/her favorite Mexican actor is White. And yeah whites from Guadalajara I realize only gather with others like them see Gael's baby mama of course for me this is no surprise it's natural that people prefer their own kind. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS that Gael does not look white then WATCH the new Heineken commericial Boss's Daughter the White actor has a striking resemblance to Gael!!!Gael Look-Alike; Proves Gael looks White! Funny how I can see white people that look like Gael but still have yet to see an Amerindian that resembles him!!!
I happen to be from Guadalajara Jalisco, and I can tell you that this dumb concept you guys probably invented yourselves of "whites tend to hang mostly with whites" in Jalisco is not true. People do tend to hang with their own kind, but what kind is that? In Guadalajara, as in all of Mexico, people commune on an economic basis, rich with rich, poor with poor, etc.. Many darker skinned Mexicans from the rich upper classes tend to hang more with their bourgeois peers than with those Mexicans of the middle and lower class. White Mexicans from a humble background tend to commune more with mestizo and indigenous Mexicans of their same cultural and economic class, regardless of race: Guadalajara Zapopan Jalisco Tepatitlan Jalisco. Only fools (or racists) would attempt to superficially judge the race that these people belong to when clearly the great majority are mixed race. So next time, if you don't know what you are talking about kindly keep your ignorance to yourselves because for some time I have been smelling a white nationalist agenda in this page. Ocelotl10293 (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Are u responding to me? Well I never mentioned "hang" I said "gather" which I meant to marriage/mating partners ect. Anyways just so you know I hang with people who are not my race too; at school outside of school ect. no big deal it's a way of life here in the U.S.A. By the way what do you mean by "darker skinned Mexicans" what if I say there's rich upper class darker skinned Americans would you know what that is/what i mean? please elaborate are you saying there's rich people with Amerindian phenotypes? Is it so negative to utter Amerindian that people have to say "dark skinned" that's why I consider mexico to so Wack. There's Inner-racism people are so ashamed to be part of the Amerindian ethnicity which is very different from the U.S. native-american concept Present day Native-Americans. Anyway For those "darker skinned" How did they get there but most importantly Now that they've have made it to the top what have they done to help their own kind those "darker skinned mexicans" their own people who by MAJORITY are poor. Are there poor whites in Mexico, yeah sure but are they really a majority? No not all. So much for your economic class. Here in the news with the whole immigration issue the images seen they look more Amerindian related than White. sorry it's a fact about your "economic class" your middle-class is almost non-existent in Mexico it's basically rich or poor like Brazil.
To answer your questions: Yes, the majority of "whites" in Mexico are "poor" (Middle or lower class if you don't think the middle class exists in Mexico). Here is a hypothetical situation: say there are only 15% whites in Mexico, but Mexico's 5% rich are all white, that means that over 66% of whites in all of Mexico aren't basking in the wealth of the elites. When I said "dark skinned" I meant anyone who isn't "white." And for intermarriage Mexicans do not discriminate by skin color (or race) as much as they do by class. As with any other society marriages are based on cultural habits, specifically women are more likely to marry men they perceive will be a good provider and provide a stable relationship. Men's habits are more complex so I won't get into that here. Also, Mexicans tend to marry Mexicans (of whatever "race") rather than foreigners. As for your claims about me somehow talking about economics I have no idea what you are trying to insinuate by that. To condense my main idea I was trying to say that Mexican society works under a classist system entwined with the racism of the backwards colonial caste system. The common prejudice in Mexico is "Wite is rich; Dark is poor." Ocelotl10293 (talk) 01:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
No this is isn't a common prejudice it is what we SEE. By the way your whole response with sounded like bla bla bla cause it has no sources.
What are you talking about? "It is what we see?" What are we supposed to be "seeing" here? And my response needs no sources because I didn't make any specific claims other than point out the obvious (Mexican society's classism and racism, want sources? Here you go: [5][6]) and one HYPOTHETICAL situation. If you don't know what hypothetical means and why it doesn't require sources look up the definition for Hypothetical Ocelotl10293 (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Is Salma Hayek White?[edit]

She doesn't look white to me, yet she is listed under White Mexican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi (talkcontribs) 11:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You're not the first person to ask this question, but since I do not know her exact genealogy, I cannot tell you for sure. Her article states that her father is of Lebanese and her mother is of Spanish descent. You can't always go by "looks" or what your perception of "white" may be, but I am pretty sure she is not mestizo, possibly castizo (1/4 Amerindian) if either of her parents have any Amerindian ancestors, but nothing in her article states this explicitly. Remember that many white people have darker features, especially Southern Europeans, and Middle Easterners are considered white by many definitions as well. I did revert your good-faith edit of replacing her picture with Eva Longoria, not because I object to replacing Salma Hayek, but because Eva Longoria is American and not Mexican (her father was Mexican American, but she was born in the U.S.). Kman543210 (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The only thing we can go by is the sources. If there is no source for someone being "white" then determining it ourselves is blatant original research. Our own observations, accurate or not, cannot be the basis for content. Beeblbrox (talk) 17:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
All the sources I looked up state that her father was of Lebanese and mother of Spanish descent, so that is white. Kman543210 (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure about that? What is the exact definition of "white"? I'm just concerned about WP:OR creeping into the article. Since "Hispanic" people are not generally considered "white", is a half Spanish/half Middle Eastern person white? We are on very shaky ground here, and I think we should err on the side of caution and not include anyone who has not been reffered to as "white" by a reliable source. There are WP:BLP concerns here as well, some people are very, very sensitive about their race. Beeblbrox (talk) 23:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure that I am not going off my own definition. I recommend that you read the White people article; it explains the history as well as the scientific and social definitions of white. Not everyone agrees what constitutes the white or Caucasian race; however, I have listed several sources below that give the definition:

  • Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India.
  • American Heritage Dictionary: Of or being a human racial classification distinguished especially by very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India.
  • MSN Encarta: Racial group consisting primarily of the light-skinned peoples of Europe, North Africa, western Asia, and India.
  • U.S. Census Bureau: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

The 2000 U.S. Census indicated that almost 50% (now estimated at over 52%) of Hispanics in the U.S. identified as white. I'm not sure where you get that Hispanic people are not considered white. It is true that white Hispanics are not the majority in Latin America, but they are a large minority as a whole, and they are the majority in several countries. Kman543210 (talk) 00:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hispanics being non-white (besides the ones with mixed heritage) is something i've only heard in rather racist circles. I guess each summer when i go to the beach i stop being of the white race. Ciobanica (talk) 13:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)*I checked out the article on White people (apperently at the same time you did), and it seems there is no consistent definition of what constitutes "white" and that more and more the question of race is one that is based on self-identification with a race, as opposed to appearance. Many Mexicans I have personally met consider themselves Mexican above all else, leaving "race" out of it altogether... Beeblbrox (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
You're right about not everyone agreeing on the definition. It is generally considered a social construct in modern times, but nonetheless, it is still used for many reasons. You're also right that some identify as their nationality above all else rather than race, but Mexican is still a nationality rather than a racial category or single ethnic group. Kman543210 (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
  • My real concern here is that by making any judgement ourselves, original research is being added to the article. Beeblbrox (talk) 01:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To IP Address 148.245.4.50[edit]

I removed the dated prod template you added. I completely disagree with you, the article is encyclopedic and referenced. It seems your only concern is that most or all of the sources provided don't use the term "White Mexican", but "people of European descent" instead. Well, neither do the sources on other articles such as White Brazilian and White American, and I personally see no problem with that, since whites are in a majority "people of European descent". It is also logical for the sources to mention immigration of whites, as whites didn't originate in the Americas, where Mexico is precisely located. - Lancini87 (talk) 23:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be kept. We would have to delete every single article on race for the same reasons. Articles on race or ethnic groups can be complicated and controversial, but I don't think we should avoid them just because it's difficult to write them. If anyone has specific suggestions on how to improve the article, then we should spend our time discussing those specific issues about the article. Kman543210 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Why Unencyclopedic[edit]

The reason why I proposed the article for deletion is not the content or the sources, but the fact that they are in an article called "White Mexican". The article starts with a term of dubious existence, and treats it as if it was common knowledge, is there a source for this term? I have not found it. I must admit I am no expert but I have traveled in Mexico and have never heard the term. “Mexicano blanco” referred as shared ethnic identity. I have heard as racial slur as in “he/she is not white people (no es gente blanca)” or in ironic remarks “White man invention (Invento del hombre blanco)”. If you ask me I have met two kind of Mexicans, the darker skinned indigenous population (usually poor), and the lighter skinned meztizo, caucasis, asian, etc. However it is not my opinion that count, the sources provided in the article never mention the existence of such a term, concept, or ethnic group, they are articles on European emigration to Mexico, not to a distinct ethnic group within Mexico that, either recognizes itself or is recognized by others as “White Mexican”. The provided Britannica link with information on ethnicity in the country states “identities as members of ethnic groups may be additionally complicated, given that ethnicity is a function of cultural patterns and traditions as varied as a group’s sense of linguistic, religious, and socioeconomic history.” Which if you ask me tends to contradict the idea that there is a clearly defined group called “White Mexican”. As far as I remember there is no real shared sense of belonging that does not include the mestizos, I do admit that they tend to be racially conscious when it comes to Mexican native population. I am only saying that since the sourced material is actually about European immigration to Mexico and not about an integrated ethnic identity called “White Mexican” it should not mislead the reader into assuming that there is a real source for the article. --148.245.4.50 (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Maybe the article should be re-named then. Suggestions? Beeblbrox (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are many sources that use the term "white Mexican", and I have grown up hearing about the inequality between the majority mestizos and wealthy white upper class in Mexico. Here is an article that touches on some of the issues: [7][8]. The CIA Factbook as well as several books that I have read indicate the different ethnic groups in Mexico, one of them being white. You can probably find several writings out there that discuss the concern from some people of white Mexicans being overly represented in Mexican telenovelas (soap operas) and movies. Maybe additional information can be added to the article, but the term is definitely used (and well known amongst my Mexican friends). There's also the issue of some Mexicans self-identifying as white even if they have some Amerindian in them (not personally saying this is right or wrong, just that it's discussed as a social issue). I oppose both the deletion and renaming of the article. What are alternative names? Also, remember not to automatically assume that just because someone isn't blonde or really light-skinned that they are not white. Even though there are many blonde Spaniards, many of them can be considered Mediterranean people which would give them darker features. Kman543210 (talk) 00:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I just glanced over the article again, and it can definitely be expanded. Just as the above editors have stated, it talks a lot about immigration. I still oppose the renaming or deletion of the article, but it definitely needs to be expanded. Just as I discussed above, white Mexicans are not just an ethnic/racial group, but are considered by some a social class. There is plenty of material out there that talks about the social issues as well, so I think that it can be at least touched on. Kman543210 (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

VDare? A racist, anti-Semitic website? You can't be serious. Eric323 (talk) 07:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Salma Hayek White (Part 2)?[edit]

Ok yes I have read the article for white people - and I also read the first discussion on top, but I decided to recreate another topic on this because since the other is jammed packed and Wiki so up-tight with accuracy, I think Salma Hayek being defined as a "White-Mexican" is sensitive. I honestly think she is mixed (White/Non-White Arabic blood). I think the media or magazine tabloids must have mixed up her background on ethnicity or she could be lying or whatever. Since we don't know her exact phenotype, we can only judge based on her appearance as well as her family's, and yes it should be credible to her account on race. If you have seen older pictures of Salma Hayek (candid) photos you can see she looks very Mestiza and mixed - no way would does she look white. And I'm not talking about photo shoots since those should never be taken as credible for one's appearance since most are touched-up with photo-editing to make a person more attractive. For example, here are pictures of her back in the late 1990s.

199x Photos
Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3

And here we have present candid photos of her.

Present Day Photos
Picture 1
Picture 2

Arab Mexicans[edit]

This redirects to a page on Euro Mexicans, but Middle Eastern people are racially White. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.72.142 (talk) 21:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC) Picture 3

(NOTE: Non of these photos were edited at all, these are photos taken by paparazzi.)

Not a major change right? She has that American Indian look. Now lets look at some photo shoots of her:

Mixed Look:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3

Caucasian Look:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6 *Looks very Caucasian here*

As you can see, as the years have gone; her look has appeared to be more Caucasian in photoshoots.Sure she does have a very European nose, as well as her eyes but that's all she has that's very Caucasian of her. But what these photo-shoots did is touch it up a bit and bring out her eyes a little more, and bring the skin out a little more lighter, etc.; a common technique used in photo-shoots. Now her family: The only Images I could find are her and her mom, and brother Sami Hayek; but no photos of her father.

Salma & Her Mom

So she has very light skin, and light-brown hair with eyes, but her features don't look very Caucasian, but looks like she has some admixture, probably American Indian blood or so. But sources claim her mother is of Spanish descent; which I think was mislead since the term "Spanish" is pointed it on a lot of people who are not even of Spanish descent (Spaniard). Then we have her brother, who looks very Arabic:

Sami Hayek

But overall, I think she is partially white, but not fully. Maybe from her mother's side, but I'm not too sure about her father's side. Since we don't know her background 100%, we cannot tell for sure if she is a White-Mexican, but judging from past photos and today's and I think it is obvious that she has some admixture in her. I still think she is beautiful nonetheless. Gouryella (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Her mom looks white to me! Caucasian features and all, So I don't know what u are talking about! If u think she's got a "dark look" it's from her Lebanese father. I remember seeing an old youtube video a red carpet even in Mexico Salma was there with her father. Her father basically looks like Carlos Slim but very short (he is the same height as Salma) and he wears glasses.

I am from Spain and there are many Spanish and Italian girls who look somewhat like Salma Hayek (even if not as pretty) but I ve not seen any Indian who looks like Salma Hayek.--88.18.150.26 (talk) 00:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is false[edit]

First "Mexicano Blanco" is not a good translation, it would be better something like "Mexicanos de origen europeo". Second according to the CIA World fact book, the "White Mexicans" are less than 10%. Arabs are not Europeans! Third Mestizo and Castizo can be so white as an European.--J altamirano (talk) 09:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because Arabs are not people of Europe Salma Hayek and Carlos Slim are not part of the article.--J altamirano (talk) 09:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree - but the Wiki-Nazis on here don't want to change it. Salma & Carlos Slim both stand out the most of being non-white in the info box. This article is misleading.Gouryella (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

  • No one said Arabs were Europeans. Read the intro to the article next time before complaining. The article is for White Mexicans, not exclusively those of European descent (otherwise, the article would be called European Mexican rather than White Mexican), but of Middle Eastern descent as well. Yes, Arabs are too considered white. - Lancini87 (talk) 17:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Dah Arabs aren't European.... but people from the middle east are classified as white... look at you U.S. census... White will say of European or Middle eastern origin.--cooljuno411 06:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree[edit]

I agree, the article is a waste of time. NO ONE says "Mexicano blaco" in Spanish. The arguments used about Gael García being "castizo" are really obsolete. Opposite to countries where the Protestant church was dominant, the Catholic church allowed always interracial marriages in Latin American countries, which lead to a homogeneous mixture of the population. Most of the people used as examples are taken from the entertainment industry, who traditionally have been "whiter" than the the regular population (not to mention that they have to be attractive besides being talented). Why are you discussing Salma Hayek's racial group when she is an actress and her job is to look different in every movie? The same with Jenniffer Lopez, she dyes her hair and whitens/darkens her skin depending on the role she's playing...

Delete the whole categorization of races in Latin America. It's not encyclopedic.


August (talk) 11:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree! Please delete this article!--J altamirano (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Please use the talk page for improving the article rather than using it as a soapbox about how much you don't like it. If you feel that strongly about deleting the article, then you can nominate the article for deletion so that it can go through the process. If there is a consensus to delete, then it will be deleted. If not, it will stay, and I would hope that will be the end of the soapboxing. Please visit Wikipedia:Articles for deletion to find out how to nominate an article for deletion. Kman543210 (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)



I agree with August and Altamirano. Este articulo no parece enciclopedico, discutiendo la raza de, por ejemplo, Salma Hayek! Y no nos enga~emos, en Mexico no se usa eso de "white mexican", quiza si lo usaran, pero las personas racistas, que de esas si que hay. What a waste of time.


—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.237.65.121 (talk) 21:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancy[edit]

Actually, the church forbid, interracial mixing until around 1821 or so, depends on what sources you find, the white population is really around 60% or so. Its impossible to be as low as 10%. Actually 21 states of Mexico have their white population over 75% so how can it only be 10% the numbers dont add up. I personally think the US is scared because Mexicans have portrayed Mexicans for brown people, which is false. Whenever their is a colonial power, the dominating race in the country will remain just like the US. Withuout white Spanish speakers from Spain and Latin America it would only be 61% white with Spanish speakers it is 76%. The US wants that majority. Mexicans have their own race too. Tehy can be as white as John Smith, and many colors. I think the US is dumb for saying White label=english language, Spanish is white man's language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caminosoto (talkcontribs) 03:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

White Mexican[edit]

People in Mexico are aware of their ancestors, obviously if you white your white, I know a handful of Mexicans who the census taker always marks them white and their last names are very Spanish. Europeans created the white label so leave it alone America! America was named after an Italian, If i do recall Italians at one time were not considered white, then why use America after an italian? As great as the country is and the best in the world it people have done stupid things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caminosoto (talkcontribs) 03:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Article name change from[edit]

I was wondering if the article's name could be changed to "Caucasian Mexican" instead of "White Mexican", I just think it sounds more proper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.38.53.243 (talk) 00:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Beware of White Nationalism[edit]

The article's content puts its strangely close to the ideologies of white nationalism, particularly in the way it adds as many groups under the sphere of "whiteness" as possible. A common tactic of ethnic-nationalism to make their numbers appear larger than they really are by inducting as many people into their ethnic-umbrella term as possible. As stated by Caminosoto in White Mexican the concept of "whiteness" has not always included some parts of Europe or some European peoples such as Italians, Slavs, Jews, and even the Irish at one point; especially not the Middle East much less North Africa. If the term for "whiteness" is going to be this broad then why not include Eurasians, Asians, and Native Americans? Basically anyone that isn't "Black." Some Japanese have already staked their claim to being "white."[1] In the article on White people it states: "A common definition of a "white person" is a person of primarily, or wholly, European ancestry.[2]" Ocelotl10293 (talk) 03:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://query.nytimes.com
  2. ^ Bonnett, Alastair (2000) White Identities. Pearson Education. ISBN 0-582-35627-X

Title[edit]

Why not change the title to European Immigration in Mexico? Is more neutral and objective, that a "term" (White Mexican) unofficial of dubious origin?, or maybe create an more general article called Ethnography of Mexico. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Considering: a) The article refers to Mexican's population of European origin; and b) "White Mexican" is no recognized as an ethnic group, as has been demonstrated. The most logical and neutral thing to do is to rename the article, to Mexican of European descent, or something like that. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

STOP MESSING THE ARTICLE[edit]

Just leave it as it is, no one is saying Mexico is 99% white. One sixth is a decent educated guess from a reliable source. Others sources that use the 1921 census are not reliable for the same reason - it's almost 2011 here folks! It's almost 100 years after 1921! (Almost 90 years to be exact.) I see nothing wrong with the article, it's not exaggerating the white Mexican population, and it clearly states in the beginning, someone of "PREDOMINANTLY" European heritage. I think that the person who keeps deflating the number of whites is the same person who keeps massively inflating the number of Amerindians in Mexico. I mean, just stop, we're not in 1921 anymore. Amerindians made up over 50% of the population just 200 years ago, do Amerindians still make up over 50% of the populace? No! Move on already! Leave things as they are!

The peoblem isn't the ratio of whites to indians - the problem is that "white" isn't a category that is generally used in Mexico and there is not reliable statistics for how many people consider themselves white. This means that the article is basically OR.·Maunus·ƛ· 03:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

White is used by the population in Mexico. No reliable statistics? Who says, you? You seem to be clueless. This article is about the white people in Mexico. Even though Mexico has no racial census that doesn't mean the population does not use racial words to describe themselves, or that there are no external sources. So calm down child. Secret killer (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Source[edit]

"There are basically four operational categories that may be termed ethnic or even racial in Mexico today: (1) güero or blanco (white), denoting European and Near East extraction; (2) criollo (creole), meaning light mestizo in this context but actually of varying complexion; (3) mestizo, an imprecise category that includes many phenotypic variations; and (4) indio, also an imprecise category. These are nominal categories, and neither güero/blanco nor criollo is a widely used term (see Nutini 1997: 230). Nevertheless, there is a popular consensus in Mexico today that these four categories represent major sectors of the nation and that they can be arranged into a rough hierarchy: whites and creoles at the top, a vast population of mestizos in the middle, and Indians (perceived as both a racial and an ethnic component) at the bottom. This popular hierarchy does not constitute a stratificational system or even a set of social classes, however, because its categories are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. While very light skin is indeed characteristic of the country’s elite, there is no “white” (güero) class. Rather, the superordinate stratum is divided into four real classes—aristocracy, plutocracy, political class, and the crème of the upper-middle class—or, for some purposes, into ruling, political, and prestige classes (see Chap. 4). Nor is there a mestizo class, as phenotypical mestizos are found in all classes, though only rarely among the aristocracy and very frequently in the middle and lower classes. Finally, the bottom rungs are not constituted mainly of Indians, except in some localized areas, such as the Sierra Norte de Puebla (see Nutini and Isaac 1974: 149–203)." (Hugo Nutini & Barry Isaac - Social Stratification in Mexico 1500 - 2000 p. 55)·Maunus·ƛ· 04:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

PROPOSAL, PLEASE READ.[edit]

I understand that the name "Mexicans of European Descent" is more neutral, but mestizos are also of European descent, and so are mulattos. But mestizos and mulattos are not white, per se. I propose we change the article's name back to "White Mexican" or "European Mexican" (the former is more preferable than the latter). I'm not even sure if there was a consensus to change the article's name to "Mexicans of European descent", was there? Also, I understand the phrase "White Mexican" isn't used in Mexico, but it is what those Mexicans are, and it is what you find on the internet if you search up "White Mexican" on Google or some search engine. I think that we need sources, but I think that needing a source for the name "White Mexican" is ridiculous. It's like needing a source for the names of "White Argentine", "White Brazilian", "White South African", etc. Also, there's an Afro-Mexican article, and the term "Afro-Mexican" is used mostly outside Mexico (and used on the inernet when talking about black Mexicans), but this is an English language wiki, so if "White Mexican", or "Afro-Mexican", or "Green Mexican" or whatever is not used alot in Mexico, it is used in English, especially by Americans (USA) who are used to calling people by their race, then nationality. Just like how the term "American people" here on the English wiki takes you to "People of the United States" because "American" means "U.S. national" most of the time in the English language. But if this was the Spanish or Portuguese language wiki, then "Americans" might redirect to "People of the Americas" (or as you would say in Spanish/Portuguese, "People of America"), since "American" in Spanish/Portuguese is correctly translated as "someone from the Americas". But this is the English language wiki, and also, "white" is more clearly meaning "pure or mostly pure" white, compared to "European descent" which can include mestizos, since they ARE descended from Europeans/they ARE of European descent (regardless of the fact that they are mixed race). It removes the disambiguation, since this page is after all about Mexican "criollos" and other Mexican non-mixed whites. One might argue, "how do we know they're pure white, alot of them have some non-white blood". Well, most white Americans are not exactly 100% pure white[1][2], but they are white, since they look and identify as such. And the fact that most white Americans and white Mexicans have 2% to 10% (or even as much as 20%) nonwhite admixture doesn't mean they are now mestizos, especially since a white American or white Mexican would be in real life someone who LOOKS white and IDENTIFIES as such (regardless of whether there's a racial census in their countries to prove that those white-looking people identify as white). If you want to make "white" mean someone who is 100% pure white, then only people directly from Europe or 1st-generation European immigrants in the Americas would qualify as such (even then, depending on the country/region, most Europeans have some nonwhite admixture, [as was shown by a study that was posted on an online website] (averagely) ranging from 0.5% in Germany to 3% to 4% in Spain to 9% or 11% in Sicily). You're not going to tell me that a source is needed to prove that Mexicans like Ilan Stavans, Guillermo del Toro, and Elena Poniatowska are white, and I doubt those three identify as mestizos or Amerindians. --Fernirm (talk) 01:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I support Fernirm's proposal. Even when it might sound racist, the word White is the best to synthesize the group of people the article is referred to; the Mexican citizens of predominantly European/Middle Eastern descent, and Caucasian phenotype. Although White Mexicans may share their language and part of their culture with Mestizo people, they have a diferent racial origin, and certainly do not share the same phenotype. Renaming the article "Mexicans of European descent" would make the article even more ambiguous, for Mestizo Mexicans are half-European descent, but they are not White. I propose to rename the article "White population in Mexico". The same criterion might be applied in White Argentine, White Latin American, and other similar articles. Thus, all this useless discussion on "existant or non-existant ethnic groups" and on BLP policy might be avoided.--Pablozeta (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Don't change the title. The article is about people of European origin, and the same user Fernirm considers the current title is more neutral. The people of predominantly European origin is unformally called white (or güero) in Mexico, independent of the degree of mixing, which couldn't affect their cultural identification with the country of his ancestors. They have different ethnic origins (Spanish, Italians, Slavs, Germans, British, Scandinavians, Magyars, etc.) and all together don't constitute a new ethnic group. Caucasian phenotype is a terminology of classical anthropology, almost no longer used to classify human beings, especially after the discovery of the human genome. In fact there is no scientifically accepted rules to determine what "Caucasian phenotype" is.--GiovBag (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
You're missing my point, the word "white" more clearly means "of unmixed European descent", because mestizos and mulattos are also of European descent. And also, WAS THERE A GENERAL CONSENSUS TO CHANGE THIS ARTICLE'S NAME FROM "White Mexican" TO "Mexican of European descent"?--Fernirm (talk) 00:40, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
  • comment White Mexicans are not a different ethnic group from other Mexicans - they may be a different racial group, but not an ethnic one. In fact according to the most recent specialized sources "White" isn't even a group but a kind identity associated with the highest social echelons of Mexican society and correlated partly with a lightskinned phenotype. (Nutini & Isaac "Social Straitification in Central Mexico"). There is no source that supports calling either white mexicans or mexicans of european descent an ethnic group. Giovbag is right. The topic of this article isn't even sufficiently well describable to deserve an article - it should be redirected to Demography of Mexico or a new article called Social Stratification in Mexico.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Delete[edit]

Maunus is absolutely right, and considering [9], this article would be deleted.--GiovBag (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

We need to discuss each article on its merits, rather than arguing that because one article was deleted, another one should be. Nevertheless, I think the cogent points regarding the deleted 'white Argentine' article are also relevant here - if not more so. There is no evidence offered that 'Mexicans of European descent' constitute an ethnicity - indeed, what evidence there is seems to suggest that 'whiteness'/'European-ness' is a question of social class, and as such a deeply-contested issue. I've no doubt that an article on "Social Stratification in Mexico" would be more relevant, and better able to indicate the nuances and complexities of the subject. I can't see much in this article which would be directly relevant, so I'd support a move to delete. Meanwhile, can I suggest we try to avoid getting involved in the incivility and edit-warring that marred the debate over 'white Argentine' - it didn't really do anyone much credit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


I disagree. This article should not be deleted whatsoever. I think this article is educational. I mean, everyone has this stereotype that all mexicans are short and brown. As a white person from Latin America who is tired of all the stereotypes, I say it should not be deleted. (User:rman22)[User talk: rman22] 4:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rman22 (talkcontribs)

The correct way to counter stereotypes is to demonstrate their falsehood, not introduce new ones. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

andythegrump please care to elaborate? What you just said makes absolutely no sense. How does it create more stereotypes??? The article deals with the white population of Mexico. If you are talking about social interactions in mexico then that is a different story. If you are saying that criollos are viewed as Mexicans along with dark skinned mexicans that is still different. It doesn't change the fact that mexico is still a diverse society. If you delete this article then lets delete the article that deals with Mexico's Indigenous population. The article says that most whites from Mexico are of Spanish descent. They are mexicans but they are still white as are the descendants of european immigrants that settled in the country. If you want to deal with how Mexican society views color, how talking about it in mexico is kind of taboo, then add the subject in the article. But deleting it will just continue the sterotype about people of mexican nationality. [User: Rman22] 8:41 pm, 21 February 2011 71.130.198.233 (talk) 04:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)rman22

This artice is unnecessary. All information contained in it, exist in other ones: Mexican people, Immigration to Mexico and Demographics of Mexico. They are not an ethnic group, and this article seems original research. In fact, it is, to determine unilaterally the existence of an ethnic group not recognized by any publication, statement or valid source.--GiovBag (talk) 22:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is necessary. Look, I'm not trying to start any argument here. BUT, I think this article is necessary for showing that Mexico definitely has color diversity. I don't understand why it has to be so wrong to acknowledge that. Rman22 (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)rman22

reverting[edit]

The revision by givobag is not sourced properly. Which one of the complaints of the article is that "this article needs additional citations for verification." Giobag's revision has no merit. Secret killer (talk) 16:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The Mexicans of European descent are not an ethnic group, therefore the infobox is inappropriate. Consequently, I removed an entirely unsourced montage of supposed 'Mexicans of Euroepan descent'. Understand one thing: Ethnicity isn't about genetics, and nor is it about abstract geographical concepts (like 'Europe'). And neither is it about abstract 'racial' concepts (like 'whiteness'). Ethnicity is about how people define themselves. Regards.----GiovBag (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


"The Mexicans of European descent are not an ethnic group, therefore the infobox is inappropriate."

Nobody is saying they are an ethnic group, and the infobox is not inappropriate. The infobox shows notable Mexicans of European descent and is totally relevant to the article.

"Consequently, I removed an entirely unsourced montage of supposed 'Mexicans of Euroepan descent'. "

Which montage are unsourced? And this seems contradictory since you are revising to a page that is unsourced.

"Understand one thing: Ethnicity isn't about genetics, and nor is it about abstract geographical concepts (like 'Europe'). And neither is it about abstract 'racial' concepts (like 'whiteness'). Ethnicity is about how people define themselves."

How people self-identify is influenced by so many things in society including geographical areas, etc. Again whether or not they are an ethnic group is irrelevant. That is a strawman you decide to put up to validate revising the article. This article is about Mexicans of predominantly European descent. Instead of arguing you could be helping to expand the article. Secret killer (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If this article is about "Mexicans of predominantly European descent" then there clearly needs to be a reliable source that tells us how we determine whether an individual fits into this category - deciding for ourselves would be original research, and contrary to policy. Can you tell us where this source can be found? Actually, since the article title makes no mention of 'predominantly' European descent, one would have to suggest that any Mexican with any European ancestry would be included - on that basis, I'd suggest that the article should be renamed as "Almost all Mexicans"! AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"If this article is about "Mexicans of predominantly European descent" then there clearly needs to be a reliable source that tells us how we determine whether an individual fits into this category - deciding for ourselves would be original research, and contrary to policy."

Not when it's so straight forward. You would be arguing for the sake of arguing. The statement has to be to be backed up by reliable sources for it not to be considered original research. But we have something called making a consensus.

Can you tell us where this source can be found? Actually, since the article title makes no mention of 'predominantly' European descent, one would have to suggest that any Mexican with any European ancestry would be included - on that basis, I'd suggest that the article should be renamed as "Almost all Mexicans"!

First, we can easily change that statement. Second, read WP:TITLE. Thank you for participating in trying to make this article better. Secret killer (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

So, are you suggesting that we reach a consensus regarding what the article is about? If you are suggesting that it should be about anything other than Mexicans with any European ancestors, the title will need to be changed. If you propose any other definition, you will also have to demonstrate that the definition is used elsewhere. This is straightforward. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"So, are you suggesting that we reach a consensus regarding what the article is about?"

No I never suggested that.

If you are suggesting that it should be about anything other than Mexicans with any European ancestors, the title will need to be changed.

No you are wrong. I'll leave it to you to find out why.

If you propose any other definition, you will also have to demonstrate that the definition is used elsewhere. This is straightforward.

If I suggest a completely different definition then yeah it needs to used in a reliable source. Secret killer (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"No you are wrong. I'll leave it to you to find out why". No, if you are going to claim I'm wrong, you've got to demonstrate why. I notice that once again you are failing to address the central issue. Who is this article supposed to be about? How do we know whether someone comes within the (not-ethnic, not-'racial') subject group? Or are we just going to have to take your word on whether someone is sufficiently 'European' to be included? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"No, if you are going to claim I'm wrong, you've got to demonstrate why."

Actually I don't have to. If you read the article I gave you then you should know why. Arguing with you is not productive and it's not making this article better. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing it seems.

"I notice that once again you are failing to address the central issue."

How am I not addressing the central issue when I am replying to you? Everything that you have said I have replied.

"Who is this article supposed to be about?"

I have already stated that. Mexicans of European descent unless I am wrong. Please tell me if I am wrong.

How do we know whether someone comes within the (not-ethnic, not-'racial') subject group? Or are we just going to have to take your word on whether someone is sufficiently 'European' to be included? " To be included a person must have ancestry to the continent of Europe. Secret killer (talk) 21:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

In which case, the lede (such as it is) will need to be revised to reflect this. Clearly not every Mexican with any European ancestry is going to be referred to as "güero" or "blanco" - and the word 'predominantly' will have to go too. And the term 'heritage' is ambiguous in this context too. On that basis, the lede should read "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of at least partly European ancestry". Not much of a lede, but it seems to fit your definition. Or have you got a better suggestion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:21, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"In which case, the lede (such as it is) will need to be revised to reflect this. Clearly not every Mexican with any European ancestry is going to be referred to as "güero" or "blanco" - and the word 'predominantly' will have to go too."

I do not know what the source says about that. So even if what you said is true, that not every Mexican is called blanco, etc., obviously most or some are called that. Which is still relevant to the article. You can take out the word predominantly.

"And the term 'heritage' is ambiguous in this context too. On that basis, the lede should read "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of at least partly European ancestry". Not much of a lede, but it seems to fit your definition. Or have you got a better suggestion?"

Heritage is used in the Britannica source. Why not just say that "A Mexican of European descent is a Mexican citizen of European ancestry." I don't know what is wrong with the word heritage? Or why don't we change the title to European Mexican? Secret killer (talk) 22:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

'European Mexican' is clearly no good as a title - as I suggested, if this article is about every Mexican with any European ancestry it is entirely possible that a significant proportion will not be particularly 'European' at all, either in terms of ancestry, or culturally. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

European Mexican' is clearly no good as a title

Yes it is. It fits well with the policy of wikipedia.

as I suggested, if this article is about every Mexican with any European ancestry it is entirely possible that a significant proportion will not be particularly 'European' at all, either in terms of ancestry, or culturally.

Europeans and mestizo are considered a separate group. And many independent sources back this up. So what is the problem? Secret killer (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Considered by whom? If that is true, then once again, we need an answer: who is this article about? You seem to be arguing one thing one minute, and another the next. It can only be about (a) Mexican citizens of entirely European ancestry, (b) Mexican citizens of predominantly European ancestry, or (c) Mexican citizens having some European ancestry. We need to clearly state in the lede which group we are discussing. We also need to confirm that when sources refer to 'European Mexicans', they are referring to the same group. I ask you to please make clear once and for all who you consider this article to be about. If you are not prepared to do this, I can only assume that you don't actually know yourself, or do not wish to answer the question for some undisclosed reason. In either case, a refusal to answer a simple question can only be interpreted as obstruction, and as a violation of expected standards. So give us a straight answer for once: what makes someone a 'Mexican of European descent'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

By institutions and encyclopedias. When you are talking about demographics and display the percentage of one group in the country and display the percentage of another group in a country, you are recognizing that they are not the same unless stated otherwise. I'm just informing that this is the case. I have already stated what this article is about. Mexicans of European descent. I have already gave you my take on the definition and the meaning is so straight forward. A Mexican who has their origins or ancestry or however you want to put it to the continent of Europe. I have said this ad nauseum, and I am done saying it. Secret killer (talk) 03:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Since you refuse to clarify who you think this article is about, I suspect the best policy will be to start a WP:RfC on the issue, and let a wider range of contributors decide. On the other hand, I suspect that it may be simpler to move for AfD, on the grounds that this article is nothing other than a POV-fork from Immigration to Mexico - it covers nothing whatsoever that can't logically be dealt with in this or other articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Article should be kept[edit]

This article should be kept because it has stimulated a great deal of talk and debate in the area of race and ethnicity within the Mexican population. As a Mexican-born U.S. citizen I have observed that the most apparent disaggreement among the respondents to this article has its root in their perception of race. Unlike the U.S., Mexico has never upheld the one-drop rule with relation to blood quantum. The Spanish colonists, unlike their English counterparts on the eastern seaboard of North America, were quite inclusive in their relationship with the natives. Mixed unions between Spanish men and Indigenous women had the blessing of the Spanish Crown and the Roman Catholic Church because their offspring ultimately provided the manpower behind the construction of a new society. The capacity for power and decision-making rested in the hands of the unmixed Spanish elite simply because they were not willing to share it with anybody else once they had subdued most of the native population of Central and Southern Mexico. However, as most natives began to die in the late 16th century due to diseases brought by Europeans, the number of people of mixed descent began to climb at such a fast rate that they became the majority ethnic/racial group in New Spain (Mexico) by the 18th century. Consequently, while mixed individuals usually married other mixed individuals, some went on to marry "pure" Spaniards. Thus, they ended up procreating a people whose racial background got closer and closer to their European roots, while at the same time distancing themselves from their indigenous past. With this in mind, how do we apply the concept of race to a country that is color stratified?

My point is...American racial concepts cannot be applied to Mexico because of the overt historical differences in reference to their relationship with indigenous peoples. The fact that White Mexicans exist is obvious. But, to actually put a number to their population is something that comes directly from a racist mindset because it seeks to insert a segregationist attitude where there's never been one. White Mexicans, unlike White Americans, can have parents, siblings, and other relatives that are "Non-White." This is so because racial purity does not exactly place someone under the "White" label but rather his or her overall physical appearance. Now, combine this idea with other factors such as socioeconomic status, and/or language spoken (Spanish or Indian) and you have a pretty good idea as to how Mexicans perceive themselves culturally and ethnically.

In conclusion, I will be brave enough to say that "Whites" in Mexico hover between 25-33% of the population. By this I mean that, regardless of racial ancestry, 25-33% of Mexican citizens can move to Europe (particularly the Mediterranean part) and blend in perfectly given their physical appearance. Another 3-5% could probably blend in Northern Europe considering that they have Nordic features such as blond hair, blue eyes. Nevertheless, as long as "White" Mexicans conform to the cultural idiosyncracies of their country they will always be Mexican, first and foremost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Latinhooligan (talkcontribs) 23:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

You are right, the debate is very important and interesting, but Wikipedia is not space for it. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog or a forum. In fact you have the answer in you hand, when you say: American racial concepts cannot be applied to Mexico. Maybe, the fact that some people considered white exist in Mexico is obvious, but isn't the existant of "White Mexican" as ethniciy.--GiovBag (talk) 23:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
That is an interesting commentary on the issue, Latinhooligan. I think it shows that there is a need for an article on how ethnicity and race are perceived in Mexico, as this is clearly a complex issue. Obviously, this will need reliable sources, but I'm sure they must exist. Do we need an article on 'Mexicans of European descent' though? From what you are saying, it would seem not - individuals seeing themselves as 'white' is no indication that they see this as a distinct ethnicity, and if 'whiteness' in others is nothing but a subjective opinion based on appearance, to treat them as a distinct group at all becomes even less tenable.
You are absolutely right about the tendency in Wikipedia articles to look at issues of 'race' from a US perspective - this is misleading, and actually hides more than it reveals. The key, as always in such cases, is to ask how the people one are describing see the issue. This of course requires an understanding that there may be many different perspectives on the issue, amongst Mexicans themselves. Any article will need to acknowledge this too, and not just make the sort of generalisations implied by the ethno-categorising logic of this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No it is not a complex issue, and it is not an issue at all. You want to make a complex issue for whatever reason. And Nobody is looking at race from a US perceptive. Secret killer (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If it isn't "an issue at all", why should we have an article about it? What exactly is notable about a Mexican being of (partly) European descent? As always, it is for those who wish to include content in Wikipedia to demonstrate why it should be. If this isn't about ethnicity, or about 'race' then what the heck is this article supposed to be about? Is it any more valid than an article on Left-handed Mexicans, or of Mexicans that can't whistle? Actually, at least in theory, those could be sourced... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If it isn't "an issue at all", why should we have an article about it?

Because it's about giving information to the masses on the different ancestry in Mexico. Is that not what an encyclopedia is for? providing Information on various topics?

"What exactly is notable about a Mexican being of (partly) European descent?"

This makes no sense.

"As always, it is for those who wish to include content in Wikipedia to demonstrate why it should be. If this isn't about ethnicity, or about 'race' then what the heck is this article supposed to be about? "

This article is about Mexicans of European descent.

"Is it any more valid than an article on Left-handed Mexicans, or of Mexicans that can't whistle? Actually, at least in theory, those could be sourced"

Yes it has sources. But you could say the same thing for any article that talks about a group of people in a country. Secret killer (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

So basically, you are just going to carry on asserting that because you think the article is about a notable subject, you don't have to demonstrate this notability? That isn't what Wikipedia policy says. If you cannot find sources that demonstrate notability, the article has to go. End of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"So basically, you are just going to carry on asserting that because you think the article is about a notable subject, you don't have to demonstrate this notability?

I did not assert anything like that. How far are you going to take this fallacious argument? This article has reliable sources, and so on WP:GNG.

"That isn't what Wikipedia policy says. If you cannot find sources that demonstrate notability, the article has to go. End of story."

Actually it does not have to go: WP:FAILNSecret killer (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, per WP:FAILN, see this diff. [10] Now find sources that assert that there is anything notable about being of European descent, if you are a Mexican. Or find sources that e.g. academics have discussed 'Mexicans of European descent' as a subject. And while you are at it, find sources that tell us how 'European descent' is defined. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
The article is about a real topic. It needs improvement, sure. But it should not and won't be deleted. Especially not when there's at least 17 millions (other sources say 20 millions) of white Mexicans of European descent. In this case, should we also delete an article about indigenous people in Mexico? Because they represent only 10.1 millions accordingly with the latest figures from INEGI. AlexCovarrubias ( Talk? ) 22:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
There is no requirement whatsoever that a Mexican needs to be 'white' to fall within the article topic - or if you think there is, then you'll have to sort this out with Secret killer, who suggests that the article is about any Mexican with any European ancestry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't have to find sources that says whether it's notable being European descent. The article is notable based on the guidelines: WP:GNG. If not please tell me. I don't have to find whether a person in academics talks about Mexicans of European descent as a subject. But I can give you an educational site where a Mexican lady talks about her being European descent. Secret killer (talk) 22:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It is entirely possible that this Mexican lady considers that her European ancestry is notable to her. So what? If you could find evidence that it was notable to a significant number of Mexicans, and that such Mexicans considered themselves part of a distinct group because of this, it would be notable in Wikipedia terms. At the moment, the article seems to be about nothing more specific than the intersection of the group 'people of at least partly European ancestry', and the group 'Mexican citizens'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Maybe, the article show there are Mexicans who are descended from people coming from Europe. In fact, no one has doubt about it. But don't prove all this people constitute a distinct ethnic group. There is no academic sources or official demographic information to prove it. Maybe is possible write an article about Mexicans of India, China, Syria, Israel, Philippines or Siberian origin, but doesn't mean that there is an ethnic group called "Mexican of Asian descent". With Europeans is the same thing: a "criollo" of old Spanish origin is absolutely different from a Slavic, a Scandinavian, a German or a Hungarian, as each of these is to a Greek, a Sicilian or a French. Many different peoples, many different cultures and many different ethnicities, vulgarized under a common continental origin.--GiovBag (talk) 23:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

European Mexican is talked about in many sources around the web, and as a distinct group. Almost everything in the other revision was sourced. I do not have to find what number of people in Mexico considers themselves a distinct group. Nowhere in any wikipedia policy says that's required. And where does it say that gives automatic notability?

GivoBAg: It does not matter if Mexicans of European descent is not an ethnic group, which I do have sources that says otherwise. Why don't you go to the European American article and say the same thing? I'll even back you up. It just seems contradictory(if that's the word I'm looking for) of you. Anybody with half a brain know that their is a difference between Europeans. Secret killer (talk) 00:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, it does matter if they're not an ethnic group... considering this page (at one point) used the template ethnic groups. Bulldog123 04:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
If Mexicans of European descent is not an ethnic group, what are they?, a category? (for whom?), a social group? As could be, curly-haired Mexican, Mexican football fans or Mexicans over 15 years. When we can say someone is a Mexican of European descent? Perhaps it's better merge this article in the existing Ethnography of Mexico and Immigration to Mexico.--GiovBag (talk) 09:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
In fact in academic publications about Mexico (and all Latin America) the only fairly acceptable category of some kind of European-Mexicans is "Criollo", because it involves some common historical and cultural features, that approaching to an ethnic group definition. But does not include the descendants of European migrations of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. And this article already exist.--GiovBag (talk) 09:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Many encyclopedias and books of mexico do include European migrations. What I don't understand here is the term "ethnic group". It makes no sense. That concept can pose a huge problem. If an African American moved to India and had children there does that mean they can't say they are african american? Does that mean Mexican Americans should no longer have Mexican in the description? In fact should African be removed from African American since most african americans are more closer to whites as an ethnic group? My point to all this is that the term "ethnic group" can mean a wide variety of things. Are European mexicans an "ethnic group"? Maybe, maybe not. But what is for sure is that mexican is a nationality. Not a race. I mean, in reality there is no such thing as race but being a "Latino" does not even fit in the imaginary world of separating people into races.Rman22 (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)rman22

Maximilian[edit]

The Emperor Maximilian is not a Mexican of European descent, he is an Austrian.--79.2.168.44 (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Changes proposal[edit]

  • First. Introduction: A People of European descent in Mexico is a Mexican citizen of predominantly European heritage, isn't good. The People of European descent in Mexico is a Mexican citizen of European heritage, all of them. No matter the degree of mixing. Includes criollos, mestizos and others of European heritage.
  • Second. History: As Mexico was colonized by Spain, the majority of white Mexicans are of Spanish descent, or criollos.... Isn't good. Don't exist any group (or category) called "White Mexicans"; in fact, the majority of all Mexicans are of Spanish descent, criollos or not. Most of them are mestizos, but have European origin anyway.
  • Third. History: However, many other immigrants (mostly French) also arrived during the Second Mexican Empire,... ; there is any reference of that?, if there is no evidence is better deleted the bracket (mostly French).
  • Fourth. History: '"... the majority from Italy, Germany, Ireland, the United Kingdom, Lebanon and Israel.(...) Greeks, Romanians, Portuguese, Armenians, Poles, Russians, Jews, White Americans and White Canadians, and immigrants from other Slavic countries, along with many more Spanish refugees fleeing the Spanish Civil War, also settled in Mexico. Fine, but if there is no references about a significant migration from all these countries, is better delete it from the list. In the same way, instead of talking about White Americans or White Canadians, we should talk about Americans and Canadians of European origin.
  • Fifth. Rename the section Region --> Geographical distribution, or some thing like that.
  • Sixth. Region: The northern region of mexico has the largest european population and admixture in the country.. Better, The northern region of mexico has the largest population of European origin and admixture in the country.
  • Seventh: ... becoming the region with the highest proportion of whites during the Spanish colonial period. Better, ... becoming the region with the highest proportion of Spanish during the colonial period.
  • Eighth: Due to the intermixing of Europeans and Amerindians since colonial times, some white Mexicans today may have a degree of Amerindian ancestry and vice versa. Better in the introduction, but corrected. Due to the intermixing of Europeans and Amerindians since colonial times, the majority of Mexicans today have different degrees of European and Amerindian ancestry.
  • Nineth: ...though many communities of European immigrants have remained isolated from the rest of the population since their arrival. This is not true, not many, just a few. Is better say ...some communities of European immigrants have remained isolated from the rest of the population since their arrival.
  • Tenth: ... immigration from other Latin American countries has also increased and has brought other White Latin Americans to Mexico, especially from Argentina. There is evidences of that? Better say: ... immigration from other Latin American countries has also increased and has brought other Latin Americans of European origin to Mexico, especially from Argentina.
  • All the detail of the 1921 census, has no relevance. I think correct refer to it, but almost the only information in the article is that it is absurd.
  • The template of mexicans it's OK, but without Maximilian, because he wasn't a Mexican with European origin, he was European.
  • With the template, the other photographs have no sense. There is too many.
  • If nobody improves this article and considering the information contained in article, maybe would be better merge this article with Immigration to Mexico.
  • I hope help. Regards. --Jcestepario (talk) 00:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Some of these changes are minor enough that you could do them yourself, such as renaming the section and removing Maximilian. Why don't you make these changes yourself? SilverserenC 00:31, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I have seen some dicussions about this same topic but at White Argentine and now at Argentine of European descent and I would say that there are some racist editors that want to deny or delete the existence of white people in Argentina, Mexico, Peru or Latin America in general. I personally do not agree with the changes above. Also why I cannot edit the article? Do I need to register an account? I was able to edit other articles withour registering an account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.22.201.93 (talk) 11:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete[edit]

Considering this proposal for deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Latin American and this deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Argentine, this article and all these articles about "white latin americans" as ethnic group should be deleted:

  1. White Mexicans or euphemistically Mexicans of European descent
  2. White Colombian
  3. Peruvian of European descent
  4. Venezuelan of European descent
  5. Argentines of European descent--GiovBag (talk) 10:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh man I don't think any of those articles should be deleted. I've seen that you are campainging all over the English Wikipedia to delete articles about white people, but only in Latin America. Why? It's not right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.22.201.93 (talk) 11:46, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Sabotage[edit]

I don't know if this: [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]; is vandalism or sabotage, but the Templeates shouldn't erased, the reference says another thing and the category "White people" don't exist.--GiovBag (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither, read what is vandalism. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 21:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

This page is protected for 5 days. That should give you guys enough time to work out what tags need to be in this article. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

GiovBag is currently in the proccess of a Sockpuppet Investigation because of his multiple anonymous IP edits in order to avoid being punished, and also because of his newly registered account. It's amaizing that he dares to speak about "sabotage" when the only person sabotaging was him. We all reverted his "sabotage"/vandalism. AlexCovarrubias ( Talk? ) 22:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
The template [20] was introduced by AndyTheGrump on 2 April 2011, being erased by Alex and Thelmadatter many times without a single explanation. And the problems with the article are always the same. Nobody has presented valid references or reasons to justify retaining this article on these conditions. They just reverse the editions but they don't dialogue. I don't know exactly why, because they are Mexicans?, or live in Mexico?, or they feel white?, or simply they are not agree?. Finally, Alex don't use the old strategy rather than discussing the arguments, discredited the interlocutor. In fact, some of my changes are not sabotage as you can see ... [21], [22]--GiovBag (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Notability, and Synthesis[edit]

I see that shortly before this article was protected, the 'notability' template I added was removed, without any attempt to resolve the issues I raised on this talk page earlier, Can I point out the relevant section in WP:GNG:

General notability guideline
If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.
"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.[1]
"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
"Sources",[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected.[3] Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.[4]
"Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.[5]

A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.

I see no sources given that "address the subject [Mexicans of European descent] directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content", and I can thus only conclude that the article is a synthesis. Without these sources, the article must of course be deleted. Given that I have raised this issue some weeks ago, I could probably begin the AfD process now, but will allow a little time for a response. Meanwhile, can I suggest that the {{notability}} template be reinserted, to draw readers attention to the problem. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Under such criteria, you better be inserting notability templates into each and every unsourced article that exists. Since we have had unsourced BLPs in Wikipedia for years, that is not sufficient criteria for determining if something is notable or not. The standard is if such could be found. There are already several sources in the article about several European groups in Mexico such as the Mennonites and Spanish refugees. Could the article be improved? Definitely. But notability is not an issue except to those who beleive that Europeans or whites do not (or better stated, should not) exist in Latin America.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
So you agree that the article lacks a source which addresses the subject. Good, that clears that up. And I'd appreciate you not making ignorant assertions about my motivations. Oh, and see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I completely agree with Thelma. We have recently arrived to this article and we do believe it would be great to make an overall improvement, but there's no doubt about it's notability. I also can clearly see a bunch of Wiki-editors, it's very easy to identify them 'cause they edit in a gang-like way, which seem to have enganged in a crusade to erase everything related to white people in Latin America. It's not a secret and it's public (since everything in Wikipedia is). AlexCovarrubias ( Talk? ) 00:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Once again, a resort to a personal attack, rather than a response to a request regarding the article. If "there is no doubt about it's notability", can you point out the sources from which this notability is derived? Which sources "address the subject [Mexicans of European descent] directly in detail"? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Whatever the rules may be, practice has NOT been to question notability of an article purely because it lacks citations. There are other templates for that. If European groups in Mexico such as Mennonites in Mexico and Russians in Mexico are notable, then an overall article about those of European descent qualifies as notable as well. Not to mention the fact that several other European or "white" ethnicities are mentioned in the Immigration to Mexico article. I will continue to revert any notability template for these reasons. Other templates, such as the one noting that it lacks citiations would be appropriate. If anyone feels so strongly that this needs to be deleted, we have AfD for that. Anyone care to continue to "report" me as a "vandal" is welcome to do so.Thelmadatter (talk) 17:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

So your argument amounts to 'the rules don't count and I'll cite other Wikipedia articles to show why'? An interesting point of view. Of course, this implies that rules are utterly worthless, and we should base decisions on precedent alone... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
The Mexicans of European Decent exist in all facets of today's Mexican society, and have, from a modern and historical standpoint, made substantial contributions to the development of the country. Sources given may need some expanding and improving, however thats what tags are for. Race, gender, and religion are always sensitive subjects; we need to keep this in mind during discussions. There is also the problem of systemic bias here on WP, which works against articles pertaining to non-english speaking, developing-world countries and their populations. -- nsaum75 :::!Dígame¡ 04:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
None of that actually addresses the issue, which is whether there are reliable sources which address the article topic in detail. As for 'systematic bias', I agree this is a significant problem on Wikipedia. It is however, unlikely to be solved by allowing articles predicated on a narrow 'racial' interpretation of a much more complex situation to define how the subject is discussed. If anything, the emphasis on 'race', and the unwillingness to deal with other aspects of identity in the context, acts to reinforce the very bias that needs to be countered. Mexico needs to be studied 'as Mexico, not as a place to be compared and contrasted with other places on the grounds of 'race', ethnicity, or other external factors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
With that argument, there should be no articles on any of the various indigenous peoples of Mexico either. I wouldnt agree to that any more than deleting anything about European/white people.Thelmadatter (talk) 21:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump: When this article comes off protection, if you still feel strongly that this article doesn't belong on Wikipedia, that's what WP:AFD is for. Lacking citations doesn't necessarily imply a problem with notability, so the {{notability}} tag wouldn't be as appropriate as, say, {{refimprove}}. At the same time, the WP:BURDEN is on those who want to retain this article to show through reliable sourcing that it deserves to be retained. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This article should remain. There is no reason why it should be removed.Rman22 (talk) 07:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)rman22

Mennonites from Skandinavia in Chihuahua?[edit]

I have seen in various sites in the Internet that there is supposed to be a Skandinavian (Swedish?) Mennonite settlement in Chihuahua called "Nueva Escandinavia". Can anyone tell me where it is? I myself was raised up in a Mennonite settlement in Chihuahua, work for a governmental office that deals with mennonite-related issues and have NEVER EVER heard of anyone from this mythical town, with the exception of a certain "Mennonite rockstar" Martin Thulin who claims to be from there, mainly to get attention. It seems that he hardly knows anything about Mennonite culture and thinks they originate from Skandinavia. Could anyone inform him better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.244.41.231 (talk) 15:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

How come...[edit]

there is no longer a number on how many white Mexicans there are? Didn't it used to say like 17 million or so?

Is it because nobody knows or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.95.121.62 (talk) 03:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Since 'white' is an arbitrary and contested category, nobody ever 'knew' in any meaningful sense. At one time, the Mexican census attempted to get an 'answer' apparently, but they have since moved on to counting things they can at least attempt to define. It is possible that this article at one time also had an 'answer' to the question, but since it was undoubtedly wrong (since there is no right answer), I expect it has been deleted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I have been working offline on a rewrite of this article, which has not been easy because as noted "white" or "of European descent" is not easy to define and yes, has a different connotation in Mexico than in other countries. I put up a really rough draft in my sandbox at User:Thelmadatter/sandbox so you can see what I have done and where I am going with this. There is also rough list of references.Thelmadatter (talk) 06:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Article has been updated. There should be enough information now to show that the article should stay. It still needs some editing work, tho.Thelmadatter (talk) 00:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I think this article is much better written than it was some time ago (back when it was called "white mexicans", it was very grating for us people actually living in Mexico). Most notable is the effort of the writers on trying to put the article in the perspective of Mexico, instead of trying to understand the subject as understood in the United States. In Mexico, being white is less about being part of an ethnic group, and more about having an unusual yet desirable physical characteristic, not unlike being tall, or having attractive features. It is not uncommon to hear "X is whiter than Y", similar to "A is taller than B"; a comment like that probably doesn't make sense under the concept of race or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.23.6.133 (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the direction on which this article has been going to...[edit]

I´ve been reading this article in previous days, and I've noticed several things that are plain wrong with it, the article in general has a bias against Mexico and it sugest "strong racism that makes impossible to progress for Mexico" various times, which is wrong, Mexico is an emerging power, a developed and an industrialized nation (with it's economy being in the top 20 of the largest economies in the world) the article also sugests that there is a power struggle between different races (similar to what happened in United States during the black rights protests etc. don't know how are they called, i'm not an specialist in the subject) in this case being mestizos vs criollos (even a section of the article is named this way, but will rename it eventually) stating that in recent times mestizos have rapt the power to criollos, which is also wrong, Mexico's leaders have always been mestizos (Porfirio Diaz, Venustiano Carranza, Francisco I. Madero) and there have even been leaders that were mostly amerindian (Benito Juarez). In other parts it says that white mexicans prefer to stay away and refuse to integrate with the mexican society, which is also wrong, Mexico is not a racist country, the mestizo identity was instaled to prevent all of this (this can be proved in Dr. Lizcanos study, which states that due the mestizo identity instalation, a large part of biologcally white mexicans are identified as mestizo, this in turn, makes a quantification of all the white mexicans impossible), you can see white actors interacting with mestizo actors all the time, the same in restaurants, in the streets and in political positions on the congress. I, finally, have noticed that all this statements come generally from the same source: a schoolar thesis that is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been published by a third party. What I will do on the next days is to correct the infomation based in a studio published by a third party made by a specialist on the subject (The Dr. Lizcano), which refutes the statements made on the other source to, finally, have an article of encyclopedic quality. Czixhc (talk) 03:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went bold and reverted the article to its original expansion in July 2011. Since then there has been a lot of stuff added or changed with absolutely no citations. Almost all of the citations on this version are from Latin American academic sources, the best you can get when defining something so contentious as race and race relations. BTW, of course there are racial tensions in Mexico, they just manifest themselves differently for different historical reasons.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
By the way, Ive read Lizcano's study which says no such thing. The political use of a mestizo identity (La Raza) did not eliminate social stratification based on ethnic heritage.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I see that you are kind of confused. First: the instalation of the mestizo identity in early XX century and "La raza" movement are two things completely different. Second: Your restored version of the article is even worse than the version from one week ago, it in fact, relies even more in the schoolar thesis titled: "For The Enjoyment of All:” Cosmopolitan Aspirations, Urban Encounters and Class Boundaries in Mexico City" by Alejandra M. Leal Martínez, which is the thesis i was refering in my response above: a schoolar thesis that is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been peer reviewed or published by a thir party, therefore this document is an unreliable source and any content on it that result offensive must be removed (even the it's title emanates cynism), if not it's totality. Lizcano's work on the topic is way more proffesional, is peer reviewed and have been published by a third party, if anything the article must rely on this one. And while racism is not unexistant in Mexico, is not as intense as the article sugests it to be, actually Mexico is way more classist than racist.
Finally i went to your userpage and found out that you were born in the United States, and that is, actually, one of the reasons for which this article is inaccurate: because it is written from the perspective of United States instead of a neutral perspective (which is beyond obvious, because this article don't even exists on the spanish wikipedia) and attempts to address the racism on the ways that it is in USA rather than on the ways that it is on Mexico, i'm in no way saying that only mexicans can edit articles related to Mexico, but you must understand that your perspective might not always be the most accurate. All this said i'm taking my revision back, because it actually relies more in reliable sources such as Lizcano's work and less on foreign misconceptions and unreliable sources. Czixhc (talk) 00:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:Verifiable does not mean that the source must be on the internet. Only that it has been published and the source is reliable. Dont insult me as to my national origin, please. That is against Wikipedia:No personal attacks. The information from the July 2011 version, reposted yesterday is all from reliable and almost all are from academic papers from Latin America. That is what makes for credibility of Wikipedia articles, not the person writing on Wikipedia.Thelmadatter (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
BTW, you are making changes with no citations to back them up and even took out referenced materials. Both are not permitted here. You were right to put the infobox back in however.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I read my response again, and i don't believe that i've have ever insulted you in any way, the only thing i told you was that to address racism on mexico in the same perspective that it is in USA is wrong, because the countries are too different culturaly, here the people is more classist than it is racist, i don't see how that aclaration can be an insult. Second as i told you above the schoolar thesis titled: "For The Enjoyment of All:” Cosmopolitan Aspirations, Urban Encounters and Class Boundaries in Mexico City" by Alejandra M. Leal Martínez is unreliable, because it is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been peer reviewed or published by a third party (such as a science magazine), and part of it's content can be considered offensive, it in fact would be good if it were removed totally.
Regarding the material that I've removed, it was unsourced statements, such as the sentences like the one stating that european migrants didn't stay in the country, i also removed information related to the afore mentioned controversial thesis because it's unreliable by wiki standards and haven't been piblished bu¿y a third party, finally i removed outdated in formation.
You in the other hand removed information that i added that is entirely verifiable and reliable, such as citations from Lizcano's work, the news article that asserts that Mexico is the country with the largest number of inmigrants in the world, and totally verifiable information regardig the conquest of the aztec empire by Cortes with the help of the Tlaxcaltec tribes. Stop removing that information, you know that it is reliable. Czixhc (talk) 23:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've merged content from both versions: the one favored by you and the one favored by me, so there can be a middle point. Czixhc (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Issues - Improve - Article[edit]

There are some issues that I want to address
1) There is no need to post a bunch of pictures of people in the initial template. We should agree that (NOTE: Faux ami; what I wrote does not corresponds to what I intended to mean.) 16 pictures is fairly enough.
2) The template {{Mexicans of European descent}} which was used in the article from 2011 until 2013, was intended to have citations of those who has European descent to furfill the requirement of Verifiability.
3) This article was created in 13 November 2007 as White Mexican but renamed on January 2011 as Mexicans of European descent by GiovBag (talk · contribs) after #Title.

Considering: a) The article refers to Mexican's population of European origin; and b) "White Mexican" is no recognized as an ethnic group, as has been demonstrated. The most logical and neutral thing to do is to rename the article, to Mexican of European descent, or something like that. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

As you can see above, in this page, there were several debates from January to April 2011 regarding the use of the expression 'White Mexican' (there were consensus to decline/drop it use) which even included the existence of this article (to deleted it or not, due to WP:Original Research).

Nacho Mailbox ★ 08:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

So what exactly is the issue to be resolved? I got involved in this article sometime back because of the discussion to delete. there was this idea that there are no "white" people in Mexico and living in Mexico City, I know that is not true. So I went digging and found scholarly articles in Spanish that dealt with the issue. Since then, the article has changed a lot, but I havent done much with it.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

USA Census somewhat erroneous[edit]

The amount of White Mexican-americans is basically the same as the White Mexicans back in Mexico!!! which is total BULL. I'm first generation mexican-american and I believe my mom marked herself and the whole family (9) as white but we are NOT. Since my parents are the head of the household they had to fill it out for the rest of us. The truth is A lot mexicans did not know how to fill it out. I remember a phone call from the Census, the person spoke spanish I could tell he was mexican, ask the race question and It did feel as if you had to Choose ONE. My mom hesitated for a while then said white because she said her dad's family came from Spain. But the fact is you are aloud to Choose more than one race but the person on the phone never explained that. Anyways Two years later I took a DNA test and it came back predominantly Native American also my mom is not of direct european descent but of Amerindian descent cause my haplogroup is A2.--76.213.228.0 (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM - this article isn't about the failings of the U.S. census system. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)