Talk:Mickey Marcus

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Ironically, as a mostly assimilated English-speaking American Jew, Marcus knew very little Hebrew. A few hours before the cessation of hostilities on June 11, 1948 he left his position late at night near Jerusalem, and was confronted by a nervous young Israeli soldier who spoke no English who demanded that Marcus reveal his identity. In the confusion, the sentry shot Marcus and killed him, in what must surely be one of history's great ironies.

One use of irony is OK, but two? The first use, yes, but I think the second is out of place. Is friendly fire ironic? --Feitclub 04:20, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Request references for Israeli military career

There is much unsourced material in this article but can someone please provide references for the following:

... the United States War Department granted leave to Colonel Marcus, who was a reservist, provided Marcus disguised his name and rank to avoid problems with the British Mandate of Palestine.

Under the name "Michael Stone" in keeping with the understanding of the U.S. government ...

Thanks. --DieWeibeRose 06:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Add 'citation needed' templates to article.--DieWeibeRose 02:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Mickey Marcus appears, slightly fictionalized, in the historical novel The Hope, by Herman Wouk. Erudil 15:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think most of this article draws from the film "Cast a Giant Shadow" (1966). Not the best historical source, I think...

The article is evidently based on the History Net article that it cites (since moved - I fixed the reference), which is based on the book, Cast a Giant Shadow it seems. The movie departed from the truth for sure. I have toned down a few things based on my own article that uses Israeli sources. No Israeli source states that Marcus initiated or actually supervised the Burma road, and he did not personally command the attacks on Latrun because he knew no Hebrew. He had no staff who could track events in the field and evidently no way of communicating with the commanders while the battles were in progress. He was involved in planning them according to Yitzhak Levi. It is also not generally stated in any Israeli sources I found that Marcus was responsible for many of the other things attributed to him in that history net article. An Israeli historian was very surprised when I asked him about these claims RE Marcus. Caveat Lector. Those dubious claims motivated my changes. The account of Marcus, the attacks etc. is in Yitzhak Levi, "Tisha Kabin" page 277 ff. (in Hebrew) and is reflected in part in the article I cited. It is known that he used the name Michael Stone, but reason is unclear. U.S. Citizens who aided Israel in this period risked losing their citizenship. Al Schwimmer was fined $10,000 and lost his civil rights. It is not too likely that he asked anyone's permission under those circumstances. [[Mewnews (talk) 01:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)]]

Request reference for US military career

It's doubtful that a Staff Judge Advocate Officer would be a "Commandant" of a US Army Ranger School that didn't exist in 1942. --72.145.146.195 (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)John Simpson

The Berkman book explicitly identifies Marcus as serving as the Commandant of a ranger school established in the Pacific (and includes a photograph while he was so serving). Given the apparent ad hoc nature of the school, assigning an available officer, particularly a West Point graduate known for his athleticism, is not unreasonable. Moreover, judge advocates are not limited duty officers and can command, and have on rare occasions. See History of the Judge Advocate General's Corps, 1775-1976, U.S. Army (1976). 12/25/08 Samad4 01:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldenshepherd (talk • contribs) 01:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, but every official history I've ever found shows that in WW2 there was only one Pacific Thwater Ranger Battalion and that was the 6th http://www.rangerfamily.org/History/History/Battalion%20Pages/sixth.htm which was activated 26 September 1944. There is no other evidence that there was anything referred to as a "Ranger School" at the period of time in question other than the Commando Depot at Achnacarry in the European Theater (which didn't go by that name). Ranger training outside of Scotland was a unit affair and certaintly didn't call for a Commandant. John Simpson

Machal

Proof that my spelling of Machal, written out long form, is the correct spelling. [1]. It is toward the bottom in the letterhead. -NYC2TLV 10:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link — but could you be more specific? I've searched the document, and can't find it (either your version, or the one that was in the article before...). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Look at the letter head at the bottom addressed to Pres. Katzav. It says the words around the World Machal logo. You can look there or the actual article on Wikipedia about Machal. You can also just take the word from someone who speaks fluent Hebrew. -NYC2TLV 03:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the image is too low-quality for me to be able to make out much, though it doesn't seem to have a transliteration at all, just the English translation; I've taken your advice, though, and copied over the transliteration from Machal. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 20:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Official spelling is certainly Machal as you can find in various Web sites (eg http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/ ). Strictly speaking the correct transliteration should be "Ma'hal" since the letter in question is a 'het. But older Hebrew transliteration used ch for both 'het and chaf. Transliteration of certain words and names have become more or less coventionalized, though it is "incorrect" - eg Chanuka, Chaim Weizmann etc. The Wikipedia "Mahal" article is almost alone in using this spelling in the title - but in the URL it is spelled "Machal." [[Mewnews (talk) 03:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)]]

Death

According to interview with former member of the Hagana who knew the lady, MM was having an affair with a Hagana women. Her former lover was a Hagana commander who according to the interview became jealous and was involved in killing MM. He then made up the story about the sentries challenge. The element of the official story that is consistent with the interviewee's story is that M was dressed in a sheet. This is verbal history and the interviewee is now dead. I don't suggest putting this in the main article, but it should remain in the comments as a possible explanation of a suspicious death. Saltysailor (talk) 17:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Unofficial Israeli version is that he went to relieve himself. That explains the sheet, as he probably slept nude. A conspiracy theory says that he was killed by supporters of USSR for being an agent of US imperialism. [[Mewnews (talk) 03:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)]]

Please see my changes regarding the official post-mortem investigation that Dan Kurzman reports having personally reviewed. 12/25/08. Samad4 01:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Treason

"In 1947, David Ben-Gurion asked Marcus to recruit an American officer to serve as military advisor to the nascent Jewish army,

the Haganah. He could not recruit anyone suitable, and Marcus volunteered himself. In 1948, the United States War Department
informally acquiesced in Colonel Marcus, still a reservist, undertaking the mission provided Marcus disguised his name and rank
to avoid problems with the British Mandate of Palestine."

"His is the only grave in the West Point Cemetery at the United States Military Academy for an American killed fighting under the flag of another country."

92.251.155.219 (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Desecration after ethnic cleansing

"the abandoned Monastere Notre Dame de la Nouvelle Alliance in Abu Ghosh"

After all, only synagoues are acceptable as places of worship.

92.251.155.219 (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Ethnocentrism and racism

"Colonel David Marcus — a Soldier for All Humanity". Because he killed for Judaism? Ergo, Gentiles aren't human.

92.251.155.219 (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Schmaltz and hypocrisy

"Killed in action in the hills of Zion while leading Israeli forces as their supreme commander in the struggle for Israel's freedom

- Blessed is the match that is consumed in kindling flame/ Blessed is the flame that burns in the secret fastness of the heart/
Blessed is the heart with strength to stop its beating for honor's sake/ Blessed is the match that is consumed in kindling flame
- Dedicated by his fellow members of Union Temple of Brooklyn December 9, 1949."

Freedom from what? The best land had been bought up and the Palestinians were being ethnically cleansed.

"Blessed is the match that is consumed in kindling flame" - Ode to an arsonist?

"Dedicated by his fellow members of Union Temple of Brooklyn" who weren't that enamoured of sand and Arab savages that they wanted to move to Palestine. Better to stay in the Western liberal democracies where one can easily complain of imaginary victimisation.

L'chaim!

92.251.155.219 (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Generals of Israel

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Israel" has been around for thousands of years, right? Israelites date back to 3,600 BCE or something, and I'm sure their armies had leaders with a rank we would call a "General". In the movie Cast a Giant Shadow Marcus is called "Israel's first general", which gives the impression that Israel never had armies or land ever.

Or is this just a context problem, and were they speaking of the "fledgling State of Israel" being established in the 1940s? Kind of like speaking of "China" when speaking of the regime since Mao, and ignoring the Middle Kingdom's previous existence of over 3 millienia.

Just a history question, bearing on a "famous first". Do we have a Wikipedia:Superlatives rule? Like "first black man to hold a cabinet-level position in the USA"? --Uncle Ed (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)