Talk:Middlesbrough

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Rob Smedley[edit]

Shouldn't Rob Smedley be in the notables list? Anyone with a Wikipedia entry would seem to be qualified. --Kcrossle (talk) 23:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

But he comes from Normanby rather than the town which is the subject of this article.Chemical Engineer (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

It's the old argument about whether a separately listed suburb also counts as part of the town, or whether it need to always be traeted as a place apart. Yes, everyone knows that Normanby is in Redcar and Cleveland, but it is, de facto, a part of Middlesbrough. Perhaps Middlesbrough could be seen as including Nunthorpe and Eston, perhaps even Lazenby - after that there is a wilderness until you come to habitations that could be said to belong to Redcar.

Looking from the other direction - what about people who belong to Linthorpe? Are they from Middlesbrough? Is that a separate place? (I love it when Linthorpe people get onto the bus and say "The Village" and the Redcar driver says, "Which village?" ... sorry that's unrelated really). --Francis Hannaway Francis Hannaway 19:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Town East - Town where?[edit]

I have no knowledge of, nor can find any reference to, places in Middlesbrough called Town East or Town West. Town Farm - yes, I know that exists. But where are those other two? Francis Hannaway 14:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Infobox changes[edit]

Hi. I made two changes to this article's infobox data and wanted to check that others thought them OK. Or, er, not. Firstly I reverted a change made very recently when an editor changed the town's name to all caps. The infobox documentation doesn't mention all caps but Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#All_caps doesn't suggest this usage and general usage elsewhere would not seem to support this change. The other change I made was to remove the nickname "Ironopolis". The template documentation at Template:Infobox_settlement#Images, Nickname, Motto says "well-known nickname(s)" and I am not sure that this is the case. The ref given for this (and for the other claim regarding this in the article, which I'd better remove for consistency) sadly has lost its audio, and the text given does not support this usage. Of course I would be delighted to be proven wrong with a good ref but I don't currently believe that it matches the spec. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Trying to find evidence that I'm wrong I haven't had much luck yet, but maybe you can do better. Apart from a billion clones of Wikipedia and articles about the former football team, there doesn't seem to be that much. This from the local paper mentions "The title refers to the town’s nickname throughout the world when it was at the height of its industrial power" which, sadly, is not now. Like I say, prove me wrong and I will be quite happy. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I gave references from 1870, the earliest I could, find, and the Journal of Social History 2004, which is a refereed journal. How many more do you want? The photo of the wall is also suggestive. An encyclopedia is not limited to current usage. Ironopolis is much better established than some of the Manchester Mafia's claims.Chemical Engineer (talk) 20:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I certainly agree that, having lived in the Middlesbrough area from birth, the name Ironopolis doesn't ring any bells. I've heard of the Ironopolis Club - so it must be based on something - but it is never used now. "Boro" is frequently used, not just to refer to the football team associated with the town, but generally to refer to the town. Francis Hannaway 19:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Boro (current), Ironopolis (obselete) is a good call. Accurate and helpful. Chemical Engineer (talk) 22:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you : Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 19:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Demography[edit]

Unfortunately I can't see any reference for the estimation of 2008. Should be added. --Dionysos1988 (talk) 23:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Removing well sourced information[edit]

This edit, removed due to "political slant", is not acceptable. Perhaps the information could be placed elsewhere and integrated into the article more appropriately, but it is solid information about the subject. The economy section simply does not mention either the decline of industrial production (the article doesn't go into it in detail either but takes it as a given) nor does the fact that about 50% of the people in the town work for some government or government agency with layoffs in progress. User:Fred Bauder Talk 02:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead and work it in where you think fit. I removed it because, however well supported, it was clearly political commentary. Nobody will fault you for placing the information in context, without reference to party politics. Djdaedalus (talk) 21:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

"The Tournament"[edit]

Is the Town's being the main setting for the film The Tournament big enough to gain mention in the Televisions and Filmography section? UFOash (talk) 22:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It's already been mooted and booted once. And if you read the article on the film, the link is tenuous at best.Djdaedalus (talk) 13:18, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
The first appearance was here. To be fair the article on the film has improved a lot since then. The Boro connection is clearer, but the notability of the film is in doubt.Djdaedalus (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

General discussion - Today's Middlesbrough.[edit]

Looking at the overall syle of this page - and the same is true of a great many Wiki pages - it seems to dwell on the past. Ee, it were grand in those days! Don't get me wrong, there should be a history section - but should every subject be weighed down by that, or should we be describing a the modern town of Middlesbrough. It tends to have factiods thrown in here and there. It rambles. It's quite long.

Take, for example, the paragraphs about transport. "... a turquoise-liveried fleet, a colour which was not universally popular."' Do we really need to know that people weren't sure about the colour of buses in 1970? What about just stating, as in the first paragraph, that Middlesbrough and the surrounding areas are served by a network of bus routes operated by Ariva and Stagecoach?

I think the page is full of such ramblings and would represent the town more if we cut a bit more back to the wood - especially when it's just people's unreferenced reminiscences of the good old days.

If it's compared with other pages - London, for example, - a good section on history is included ... but after that, only present day aspects are described.

Further to these points, I'ved noticed that three Middlesbroughs are being described:

  • The original Middlesbrough near the Transporter Bridge
  • The town of Middlesbrough
  • Any good points in neighbouring towns in the area that become by default Middlesbrough when it suits people.

... please discuss :) Francis Hannaway 11:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

On the last point about other settlements information you have to decide if the article is to cover just the town, the borough or both. May be you need to consider splitting off the borough into Middlesbrough (borough), which is now a redirect to Middlesbrough Borough Council, though that may lead to some duplication. Probably need to make this decision early on so that you can focus thing better. Keith D (talk) 11:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Keith. I was thinking along those lines. It makes me think of French football supporters who called Zinedine Zidane French when he played well, and an Algerian when he didn't. Similarly, the Eston/Grangetown WWI hero and VC holder is suddenly from Middlesbrough, Ormesby Hall is suddenly in Middlesbrough (despite the actually technically disclaimer), but photos of Normanby, South Bank, Eston, etc. are not included as views of Middlesbrough. I wonder what other's thoughts are on the subject. Francis Hannaway 16:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi there Acklamite here!! Now I realise im late in this discussion which I can appreciate may be irrevelant seeing the article split is already in place, however there are a couple of points Id like to make. Firstly the biggy, what constitutes Middlesbrough. For me the Middlesbrough article should not focus solely on the area contained within the administrative boundaries of Middlesbrough Borough Council, nor should it focus on the central pre-1968 county borough boundary (town centre, Linthorpe, Acklam, N Ormesby etc) as a definition of Middlesbrough but include the urban area as a whole including Eston & Southbank, Nunthorpe, Marton, Coulby & Hemmo. Now I fully understand that Eston and Southbank are not and have never been within the Borough of Middlesbrough and are very much part of Redcar & Cleveland, im in no way claiming that, but this article is not about the administrative district of Middlesbrough nor that of Redcar & Cleveland but the urban area of Middlesbrough itself, the 'town'. I realise there are varying factors on what defines a town but for me this best describes the town/urban area of Middlesbrough. Anything to do solely within the Borough, as i see it, should indeed be seperate and included in the Middlesbrough Borough Council article which would exclude Eston & Southbank. This is just an idea but I would like to hear any comments on this, for and against. If this is not a possibilty then maybe the use of the official Office for National Statistics designated urban sub-area for Middlesbrough would be a suitable substitution. The ONS classes the Middlesbrough urban sub-area as the entirety of the Borough with the addition of Ormesby and an additional 8,000 residents. (however all previous references and links to this on Wiki strangely no longer exist and I cannot find any record on the ONS website anymore :S??) My other point was about the removal of Ormesby Hall from the article. Part of the Ormesby Hall Conservation area [1] is actually within the borough, albeit a tiny portion (maybe 2% if that) but because of this, Middlesbrough Council along with Redcar & Cleveland council, are jointly responsible for the area and must consult with each other on issues regarding the entirety of the Hall and grounds. I would very much welome any further discussion on either of these topics. Yours Acklamite 00:26, 3rd November 2012 (UTC)

Mergefrom Middlesbrough Borough Council[edit]

It's very clear that that the page Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough Borough Council are talking about the same subject. I'm surprised others have been so quiet about the issue. Both articles are talking about the Unitary Authority of Middlesbrough aka Middlesbrough Borough Council. At least the Middlesbrough Borough Council page doesn't try to claim places in neighbouring Redcar and Cleveland.

So - let's hear your thoughts on the subject. All opinions welcome. Francis Hannaway 16:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

External link cleanup[edit]

I added the tag for ext link cleanup bc there seem to be far too many ext links and many are used in the main text of the article where it would be more appropriate to turn them into inline citations/references. Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 07:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

World War II - new article[edit]

I'm sure that there is enough interest to move the section about the Second World War to a new article. Then it could be expanded upon. As it is, it takes up a lot of space in an already overly long article. Any thoughts? Francis Hannaway 23:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I have now reduced the section about WW2 and submitted a new article Middlesbrough during World War 2 (not live yet - it's being reviewed) which will take the content of the Middlesbrough page on the subject and, in time, be expanded in its new home. Francis Hannaway (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Removal of history section from Mayor of Middlesbrough article[edit]

And dump here. NPOV and WP:FORK concern. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Twinning and twin towns[edit]

Why are "twinning" and "Twin towns" two separate sections? It's tempting to assume that it's a mistake and someone perhaps introduced one without seeing the other already there ... or ... ? DBaK (talk) 10:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, Francis: it appears that this was you, here - was this intentional? Please advise. (I've TB'd Francis.) DBaK (talk) 10:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Ha! Well, my memory doesn't go back so readily to individual edits, but that looks about right. What I do know, however, is that Middlesboro (or, Middlesborough) in Kentucky, is not a current twin. There's no reference given for it ever having been a twin - but it was already in the article when I started editing. Perhaps it was in the 1800s. My apparent introduction of these "facts" could've been from last summer when I deleted almost half of the whole page by trimming a lot of drivel about bus shelters and public TV screens and weasely POV content. You may be looking at what I stuck back together. So, dated 5th August 2012, that seems about right. Incidentally, I tried to get a merger of Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough Borough Council. It really needs some one from outside the area to look at both articles. But ... going back to twinning - edit as you will. Best wishes! Francis Hannaway (talk) 11:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The reason I mentioned the merging of the two Middlesbrough articles is that it is actually the borough council that is twinned - not the town. Middlesbrough as a town doesn't have any elected bodies - it is the unitary authority of Middlesbrough Borough Council that has those. Therefore, we could argue that Middlesbrough is not twinned at all. Signs erected on entry roads clearly show that it is the whole of the unitary authority which is twinned. It's easier to see the logic of this by looking at neighbouring Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council with its main town of Redcar. Redcar and Cleveland is twinned - but Redcar ain't. Middlesbrough is both the name of the main town and the name of the unitary authority (and the unitary authority doesn't reach far beyond the town) so it's easy to confuse the two. Food for thought Francis Hannaway (talk) 12:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the helpful replies and yes, that's food for thought indeed. It means that my initial concern over the duplicate sections is now part of something a bit broader ... although I suppose that deduplicating them here might be a good start anyway. Perhaps fortunately I'm out of time today so I can perform the Lazy Editor Manoeuvre of coming back in a day or more to see what (if anything) has happened! Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 12:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm quite sure that you are also right about Middlesboro, KY, by the way. I seem to recall that we discussed it here years ago, or I looked it up, or something ... I don't think that the evidence exists. If it does, I would be most interested to see it! :) Cheers DBaK (talk) 12:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Twin towns sortout[edit]

I'm going to be bold and try to sort this out, but please chime in if you can help! The only good ref I can find so far is the Council's own page on the subject, which mentions only Oberhausen. Historyman53 (please see here) has very usefully pointed out that the ref I had for the Dunkirk thing is not reliable - it's a blog, and in fact I wrote to the journalist and he has no better ref beyond that, so I think that's it done as a WP:RS. But actually I think the council's own current page trumps all, so I am going to cut it back to Oberhausen, at least until someone shows up with an RS for anything else. I will de-duplicate the sections at the same time. Best wishes, DBaK (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

PS I note that this doesn't address Francis's concern about what is actually twinned - the authority rather than the town ... sorry ... but I am not sure how to, and it's a start, anyway. DBaK (talk) 14:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

A climate for Middlesbrough[edit]

Someone has helpfully written a paragraph about the climate in Middlesbrough.

"Middlesbrough has an oceanic climate typical for the United Kingdom. Being sheltered by both the Lake District and Pennines to the west, Middlesbrough is in one of the relatively drier parts of the country, receiving on average 25 inches (640 millimetres) of rain a year. It has more of a continental climate than other parts of the UK, with above average summer temperatures, and below average winter temperatures. Summer highs typically reach around 20 °C (68 °F), while winter lows can fall to several degrees below 0 °C (32 °F)"

I would say that, with it being unreferenced, that it is complete original research and not completely helpful. It states that Middlesbrough has an oceanic climate and then that it has a continental climate. I don't know what's wrong with a good old-fashioned temperate climate. My understanding, and experience, of a continental climate, in Europe, is one of much hotter weather in the summer, but with extremely cold temperatures (-10 C to -20 C) in the winter. Would anyone agree that the excellent temperature and rainfall grid on the page would suffice? ... and that we can delete the paragraph, which, if referenced, would be more at home on a page about a region rather than a town? Francis Hannaway (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like OR, support removal. Ma®©usBritish{chat} 23:00, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Similar sections are on most city/town articles e.g. Manchester or Northallerton, though would need referencing. Keith D (talk) 00:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Manchester is well referenced for rainfall and temperatures, but it mixes 'temperate' with 'maritime' and provides no indication as to how these descriptions were arrived at. The Northallerton page gives references for temperature and rainfall, but the only other reference is a dubious one, coming as it does from a tourist site for the Yorkshire Dales ... could be a bit biased. The rest of Northallerton's paragraph seems to be similarly written as OR by an amateur meteorologist. I think we need to be careful in providing information to the wider public which appears to have been written with authority, when it quite clearly has just been made up.Francis Hannaway (talk) 08:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

City status[edit]

This one's for the muppets who keep changing "town" to "city": http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9588713.Middlesbrough_misses_out_on_city_status/ Ma®©usBritish{chat} 12:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

ONS: Middlesbrough built-up area (formerly urban area)[edit]

The ONS has released new information regarding urban areas, or built-up areas as they are now known, within the UK. The figures refer to the populations of what the ONS have designated as urban areas, regardless of administrative boundaries. In the case of Teesside, the ONS had previously classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as two separate urban sub-areas. The population of the Middlesbrough urban sub-area of Teesside was 142,921 (which was the entire Borough of Middlesbrough plus the Ormesby ward of Redcar & Cleveland) and Eston & Southbank as 32,600 (the remaining 5 wards of Greater Eston). Now, however, the ONS have classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as a single urban subdivision of the Teesside built-up area, with a population of 174,700 [2]. Now as far as im concerned this should be the official definition of the town of Middlesbrough and I think it should be included within the article to show Middlesbrough's urban population as 174,900 not 138,400 which is the population of the local authority and doesn't reflect the full extent of the entire built-up area. As this article is about the urban area and not the adminstrative district it should reflect all aspects of the area. With this in mind the areas of Eston and Southbank should feature within the article as they are now officially classed as part of the Middlesbrough area. Hopefully this may give some closure to the argument of what actually is considered Middlesbrough and what isn't, at least in terms of an official government statistics point of view. Acklamite (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I agree. Eston and South Bank fall under Redcar & Cleveland Council, and I don't think a "data capture" area for the purpose of national statistics is considered an official area any less than the way they bound "North East" into totals, but I'm not having any luck finding the most recent ONS data to support your views. Maybe you could provide some links? The nomisweb link provided returns a "File does not exist" screen, I'm guessing it was a session based search result so no unique URL is generated. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish{chat} 04:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

That is correct Marcus, Eston and Southbank do indeed fall within Redcar & Cleveland council, im not disputing that. I am refferring to how the ONS have re-classed the urban area and its population, not the authority/council area which divides up the conurbation. As before, the ONS classed the urban sub-area of Teesside, known as Middlesbrough, to include areas outside of its authority area. Previously this was only limited to the Ormesby area. However, the Nomis website, which is part of the office for national statistics, shows a change in the methodolgy on what constitutes an urban area and re-classed them as built-up areas. The built-up area of Middlesbrough, or to be more specific Middlesbrough BUASD (buit up area subdivision), according to Nomis and the ONS has a total urban population of 174,700. This does not represent either the populations of the Borough of Middlesbrough nor that of Redcar & Cleveland which are completely different entities to the urban area, but is a more accurate way of representing built up areas that may have a natural urban continuity to them. I must stress again the former urban sub-areas or new built up areas are used to determine the population of an urban area and not the population of the authority. As for the legitamcy of the new methodolgy, I do not think it is simply just a data capture of an area made up purely for statistical purposes, but a way the government can be more accurate in defining population centres regardless of boundaries, physical or otherwise. Here is a link to the report published by the ONS about the re-designation of urban areas in the UK; Characteristics of Built-up areas. Also you are correct about the link I included above, I should have known better not to use a generated search as a reference, however as I have not found any other file or document that I could create a link to I had no option. Even if you go to this page, 2011 census, Key Statistics for Built-up Areas in England & Wales, you are still given the same link to the same section on Nomis. I will have to use an indirect method;

This link will take you to the usual resident population key statistics page. To download select built-up areas including subdivisions from the drop down box that says 'choose area type'. Or to use the Wizard Query fucntion; first select All next to built-up up areas including subdivisions (you may have to click the link built-up areas..... to access the locale afterwards) / select North East from the drop down box /s croll down the list and tick box next to Teesside - Middlesbrough BUASD (you can click the little map icon next to it to see the coverage of the built up area if you desire) then click next back at the top of the screen / the next steps are to choose variables and how the table is displayed and so forth, simply make your way through these steps by pressing next once completing / once you come to the end step you have a choice of format then click finish for the result! My apologies for how long winded all this may seem but this seems to be the only way to access this information.

Lastly, I also think that as this has been conducted by the ONS, which is part of the government, that it should be deemed official as it is how the government has the defined the area. Acklamite (talk) 19:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I have just discovered this document also Built-up areas Guidance & Methodolgy. Hopefully add some more incite to how the new urban areas are defined. Also i have managed to successfully copy the link to the results http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/asv2htm.aspx & http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/asv2xls.aspx?tableNum=0&sort=-1&sortasc=yes Acklamite (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, the last two links are also returning "File does not exist" for the first and "404 - File or directory not found. The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable" for the second.
If ONS have designated "built-up areas" across the UK I think these need to be rolled-out across all of Wiki, that way you prevent any conflicts between articles of neighbouring areas which may happen if you leave old data in one area from, say, 2001 and add new data to another from 2011. If you just focus on Middlesbrough it may lead to confusion. I think a wider-discussion would be more appropriate, with regards to introducing the idea of referencing "built-up areas" over administrative boundaries before we go tinkering with demographic totals, as it may not be warmly greeted and I think it's best to avoid small or large scale disputes by first seeking consensus, seeing how editors feel about it. Clearly there's a lot of valuable fresh data available at ONS, which is usually welcome, but I don't think it's wise to only apply the data for one area to a new standard and ignore the rest of the UK.
I would suggest approaching a relevant WikiProject, such as WP:WikiProject UK geography and discuss your proposal and the implications of introducing this new ONS data, and if it is approved of you may find there are a number of editors prepared to help rollout the changes fast.
Cheers, Ma®©usBritish{chat} 20:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmm those pesky links, I even checked them by logging out then back into wiki and they worked! Oh well nevermind. Thankyou for the suggestion I shall bring it to the attention of editors and it should indeed be a UK wide standard. I was curious to see if any other articles had already introduced this particular data and indeed I discovered both Leeds [3] and York [4] to have included the 2011 Built-up areas figures for the urban population, aswell as showing the figures for their respective districts. Acklamite (talk) 14:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

A lot of sites use session based search results, which basically means the result is stored as a "session" typically with a cookie or stored on their server, and those sessions tend to expire after so long, e.g. a PHP site's session lasts 24 mins, default, after that time your cookie expires and you'll need to perform a new search. It allows sites to dynamically create search results without having to create hard-coded web pages, just templates and the results of the search or a recalled session fills in the rest. Though very useful for web developers it does make it harder to link to such pages as they are not stored.
If a couple of other areas have started introducing these new ONS stats, then yes, definitely raise this with WikiProject UK Geography, as I think it should have been discussed and then done on a larger scale for the reasons I mentioned before to keep all related UK articles up-to-date and on the same wavelength. It's hard to follow related articles if they use different data sets for the same parameter. Ma®©usBritish{chat} 19:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Notability of Teesside Tintin[edit]

Is Teesside Tintin notable enough for this article? We now have "Comic writer Nick Donnelly creator, voiceover and editor of Teesside Tintin" in the notable people section. Edits by Edaward123456 today - I will drop them a talkback message. DBaK (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)