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- 1 Proposal - Midsummer in Australia
- 2 St. John's Day/Christianization/Syncretism/Cultural Mixing
- 3 Merger proposal
- 4 Why bonfires
- 5 Summer solstice is NOT midsummer (they are different dates)
- 6 Worldwide view
- 7 Mid summer
- 8 False
- 9 Brazilian São João
- 10 Comics?
- 11 Article about Brazil
- 12 Scandinavia and the rest of Europe
Proposal - Midsummer in Australia
Midsummer in Australia occurs around Dec 21 and the celebration of Christmas is influenced by the season (especially the heat and long days). Is this worth noting on this page?
--mintleaf 11:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
There is considerable disparity between the meanings of "summer". I danced in summer on MayDay, with mid-summer day sometime round now, drifting into autumn in August. Some politician seems to have defined the beginning of summer as 21st June. There needs to be a link to a page that addresses these conflicting views of "summer" and its mid- Cvhorie (talk) 08:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
St. John's Day/Christianization/Syncretism/Cultural Mixing
One major problem with this article is the easy assumption that the Nativity of St. John the Baptist is a Christianization of pagan Midsummer festivities. The Date section of the Nativity article suggests that this is, at best, highly disputed. Some of the "National Celebrations" reference only St. John's Day-related celebrations. Doubtless, some Midsummer traditions became translated into St. John's Day festivities, but this kind of phenomenon is not "Christianization", which, to the contrary, implies some kind of intentional co-opting. Thoughts? Gabrielthursday (talk) 19:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Further notes: It seems to me that many of the country-specific discussions assume, without references that traditions celebrated on St. John's Day are derived from pagan midsummer celebrations. We need sources for this- and perhaps this mixing of traditions would be best discussed in a single section, rather than country-by-country. As it is, certain country sections don't seem to have connections to midsummer at all, aside from the general midsummer-St. John's connexion, and I would suggest, should probably be deleted. If there is important information in these sections, perhaps it should be moved to the Nativity article. Gabrielthursday (talk) 20:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
To me, "Christianization" doesn't imply any kind of intentional co-opting, but more of a "if you can't beat them, join them", attitude. But that may be just me. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
A total co-opt of the pagan holiday, this would be like Christians taking over Lincoln's birthday, apples and oranges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 23 June 2009
There are five additional articles about Midsummer activities, which should be merged with and redirected to Midsummer:
- St John's Eve, which largely is identical to this article's text about Midsummer Eve celebrations.
- Bonfires of Saint John, which is about the Spanish Midsummer/St John celebrations.
- Sânziană, which is about the Romanian Midsummer/St John celebrations.
- Saint Jonas' Festival, which is about the Lithuanian Midsummer/St John celebrations.
- Jāņi, which is about the Latvian Midsummer/St John celebrations
If these are not merged into this article, I think separate articles about Midsummer festivities in various other countries should be created in the same way, thus enabling this article to be shorter.
I agree with making the article shorter. Midsummer is a subject in it's own right. I feel Midsummer should be structured as a short article with brief introductory passages. Each passage would reference existing articles that describe the rites and rituals of particular cultures, all of which would need little or no modification. zorg (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that the article should be split. At least into one article on the more pagan/germanic traditions of celebrating related to the sun (Midsummer) and one on the christian Saint John celebrations (Saint Johns celebration). Are the Saint John festivals really a continuation of Midsummer? Are these referred to as Midsummer, or is more the case that they occur at about the same time in June? Koyos (talk) 15:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
These are all the articles I found:
- Feast of St. John the Baptist, patron saint of Québec, Newfoundland and Torino (Turin), brush makers and knife sharpeners;
- I think that under no conditions should the subjects be merged.They are not the same thing so why should they share a page?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 23 June 2009
- Would you include a Christian lore reference under articles such as "President's Day", etc.? Apples and oranges. Please keep these items removed from unrelated articles such as this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 23 June 2009
- I think that splitting the two between midsummer and St John would make sense. Especially if the two articles references each other. Philly jawn (talk) 16:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I would oppose these mergers. There should be enough difference between a festival in (say) Spain, and one in Latvia, to make interesting, informative articles on each. And this page is already 46kB long, which is past the point when we should consider splitting it; so mergers seem to be the wrong direction to be going in. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
oppose a merger. jani and others are distinct and worthy of their own articles. i suggest limit the word count of each individual holiday summary within midsummer and create articles for specific holidays whose sections have become too long. see winter solstice Some thing (talk) 16:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Similar Bonfires ----------------
Holi is quite similar to pagan festival of Summer Solstice
Ritual Bonfire in particular, also both herald and celebrate coming of Spring/Summer.
Due to Equatorial Polar Shift there is difference in months . Just as Summer starts now near Northern Poles.
- The idea is to keep shortest night of the year as light as day and to preserve light troughout the night - it symbolizes sun. And it is said that it brings health. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 10:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Summer solstice is NOT midsummer (they are different dates)
I have only had a quick flick through this article, but I am rather concerned to see that there are references there to the Summer Solstice. This day happens on June 21 (normally); whereas Midsummer's Day, also known as St. John's Day, happens on June 24. Perhaps if I take more time to read this more carefully, I shall see that it does clarify how these are different dates, and if I do, it will bring me happiness. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC) Having read this a little more now, I still do not think it goes far enough in clarification of how, with the current calendar, the summer solstice in the United Kingdom typically occurs on June 21, which is several days before Midsummer. All right, the article does mention how this was the solstice when an earlier calendar was used, but should make this more clear and sharp. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I support blending to a point. I think that Summer Solstice/Midsummer as a holiday should be separated (disambiguated?) from summer solstice as an astronomical event. I think this is most clearly done by sticking to the phraseology of "Midsummer" throughout, with an explanation that Midsummer celebrations are about the summer solstice without being necessarily on it. Regarding Roman Catholic adaptations, I think that they can be mentioned (as they already are) in the Midsummer article, but that Christian celebrations (regardless of national origin) should be treated separately from non-Christian ones, just for the sake of shorter articles and more precise grouping. Of course. each article should be mentioned in the other. This is Wikipedia, after all :-) --RevSu (talk) 22:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the tag suggesting the article has a northern hemisphere bias: as midsummer celebrations were a European phenomenon (which is stated in the introduction), I'd have thought that was inevitable; and it has been exported to areas of European settlement, like Brazil and Australia (the first two places listed), it has become more worldwide. I suggest we should remove the tag. Moonraker12 (talk) 01:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Mid in Midsummer does not mean middle . It is the short form of an old word( I think Saxon) meaning - BEGINNING .
- Old Saxon middi means middle. Anglo-Saxon middan means middle. Midnight happens in the middle of the night. Midday happens in the middle of the day. These words were formed around the same time.18.104.22.168 (talk) 22:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- How can "mid" NOT mean middle? --RevSu (talk) 22:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
This stands to reason as the Soltice is the end of something and the BEGINNING of something else ! (Equinoxes similiarly )
- Objectively, it's just a point in a cycle that repeats an neither a beginning, nor an end, nor a middle. Different cultures have marked that cycle in different ways at different times. Often in different ways for different contexts also.22.214.171.124 (talk) 22:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
The ancient Celts had the correct middle of each season correctly dated. These middle dates are fixed but the beginnings of seasons were celebrated on the nearest full moon to the Equinox or Soltice. The Celts had a close fix on the Lunar Calendar and the Solar calendar. They were Sun worshippers after all !!
- Which ancient Celts? There wasn't a unified Celtic culture. One known Celtic way of breaking up the cycle is that mentioned in the old Irish tale The Wooing of Emer, where Samhain, Imbolg, Bealtainne and Lughnasadh are the season-breaking times, though the precise dates of these is not known. The modern Irish system still considers these the turning points of the seasons, though based on associating them with the modern Gregorian calendar.126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, I hate to ruin the party, but the primary definition of "midsummer" is INDEED, "middle of summer":
The "solstice" one (and the St. John's one 3 days later) is secondary. All the high-fallutin' theories above overlook the fact that the ENTIRE ARTICLE is WRONG!!!!
If the entry is supposed to deal only with this "secondary" meaning -- and its celebration as a holiday -- well then, the disambig page should be clearer. Otherwise this page needs to address the ambiguity in the lede somewhere. As it now stands most readers are probably going "midsummer? huh? isn't that LATE in JULY sometime????" 188.8.131.52 (talk) 09:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
In ancient Celtic and northern European traditions, the year had two seasons, Summer and Winter. Summer was the time when the Sun rose north of due East, in other words from Spring equinox to Autumn equinox. So then, the Summer Solstice was indeed Midsummer's day. Winter was the time when the Sun rose south of due East, in other words from Autumn equinox to Spring equinox. The Winter Solstice was Midwinter's day. The article should say something to this effect. Alexselkirk1704 (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
This article is misplaced. The 'mid' in midsummer does indeed mean 'middle'. The middle of summer (August 5) occurs halfway between the first day of summer (June 21) and the last day of summer (Sep 20). This is not the longest day of the year in the northern hemisphere, but the hottest. Midsummer is the natural time of ripening for many plants; and, as Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream would suggest, for many animals. There are celebrations associated with this time of year (e.g. the Summer Olympics). The 5th of August should be compared to the 5th of May and the Cinco de Mayo celebrations.184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed the phrase: "The 24th of June is a throwback to the old Julian calendar when the summer solstice usually fell on that day." The phrase is evidently false. The main problem of the Julian calendar, which led to its replacement with the Gregorian calendar, was just the fact that astronomical events were changing day through centuries. Summer soltice was fixed on June 21 by Pope Gregorius, but it had shifted to June 11 before its reform.--220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:20, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Brazilian São João
The article says...
A maypole, which symbolizes the phallus (called mastro de São João), is also raised
I have great reason to believe that this is not true. I have celebrated Festa Junina many many times (I'm 23 and I've celebrated every year, probably about two parties a year) and I have never hear this. And I have verified with my mother that this is not true. I have removed the sentence from the page. I suspect vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Under the "Contemporary national Traditions: USA" section there is a link to Crimson Dawn that I believe is supposed to be a park, but the link is to a Marvel comics reference. Some how I'm thinking that is not supposed be that way.
Article about Brazil
Note to the author of this article about midsummer in Brazil - how come you write such an article about midsummer, if what you are describing is, in fact, OUR midwinter ? Summer in the northern hemmisphere = Winter in the southern hemisphere, so in June we are in midwinter, not midsummer.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 10 November 2011
Midsummer is especially important in the cultures of Scandinavia and Latvia where it is the most celebrated holiday apart from Christmas.
- this sentence is misleading and probably incorrect. these festivities are as large as Christmas even in Portugal, and there is not direct link between it and Scandinavia; reasons are pre-Christian. the issue here there is not as much propaganda as Christmas has. Wasnt expecting this to be so celebrated around Europe, though there should be more information in each cultural region where it is a relevant festival (individual countries apart) and countries were it is a minor or irrelevant festivity should be grouped with other neighbouring countries where it it also a irrelevant festival. This will help the reader to understand the importance of the summer solstice festivals around Europe. As it is, it is a little confusing. --Pedro (talk) 11:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- If no one objects or presents a reliable source supporting the importance of this to Scandinavia comparing to the rest of Europe, ignoring the reality elsewhere. I will remove that sentence.--Pedro (talk) 12:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)