Talk:Mike Tyson

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Former good article Mike Tyson was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Appearances[edit]

How come nothing is mentioned about his stint on Law & Order: SVU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.43.75 (talk) 02:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

It's here: Mike Tyson in popular culture#In movies and television.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks SS! -- KeithbobTalk 20:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


US Flag Removed (from Nationality)[edit]

I added it yesterday, someone accepted the addition, now it has been removed from the article. Why...? / -: 70.238.221.233 (talk) 18:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Read the guideline WP:INFOBOXFLAG.--Don King's hair (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I never did read the guidelines; man, you nerds must be on 24 hour-a-day alert. ( -: There are lots of boxing articles with national flags displayed, you need to give those folks detention...

70.238.217.224 (talk) 21:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Selective editing[edit]

I remember reading this article several years back, and since then I've noticed that information on his conversion to Islam, and even his Muslim name "Malik Abdul Aziz" has been systematically removed from the article. Is this deliberate or merely an over-sight, but that still couldn't explain why its been removed. Any ideas on whether we can go ahead restoring that data, or are they any objections I'm unaware of? DA1 (talk) 22:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

What about his aviculture interests?[edit]

It seems he spends a great deal of time breeding doves these days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:E686:6F80:250:BFFF:FE91:1C5A (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Nicknames (infobox)[edit]

Shouldn't mentions of Tyson's nicknames in the infobox also appear and be properly cited somewhere in the article. MOS:INFOBOX#Purpose of an infobox says "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts that appear in the article." H:IB#What should an infobox contain? says something similar. An infobox is not really intended to introduce new information about a topic, it can in certain cases when agreed upon by consensus, but when it does such information should be cited per WP:INFOBOXREF. Infoboxes for articles abut living people are also subject to WP:BLPSOURCES and WP:GRAPEVINE, which is quite clear about adding unsourced material to BLP articles. There are four nicknames mentioned in the infobox and they are as follows:

  • Baddest man on the planet is the only nickname mentioned in the infobox that is properly cited in the article: in the last sentence of Mike Tyson#Controversy and upset. It is supported by reference no. 59 in the article and reference no.2 in the infobox and it can be verified where these support the nickname, so this nickname is fine. I do, however, suggest moving reference no. 2 from the infobox to the nickname's mention in the article per "WP:INFOREF".
  • Iron Mike is not cited in the infobox, but it is indirectly mentioned within the article as the the name of Tyson's production company "Iron Mike Productions" in Mike Tyson#After professional boxing. This, however, is not sufficient to support that Tyson was called "Iron Mike" during his boxing career in my opinion and more direct support needs to be added. There are several references (nos. 15, 25 and 30) which also contain the name "Iron Mike" so it is possible to support the nickname one or all of them (no. 30 appears to be dead though). My suggestion is to add a sentence about the nickname to the article and then properly support it by one of these citations.
  • Kid Dynamite is only mentioned in the infobox. A source is given (reference no. 1), but it is apparently dead. The source is named "SI article on Mike Tyson" which could be any one of a number of SI article's on Tyson. The link just leads to a SI archived pages' search page. The only thing I found an SI archives' search of "Kid Dynamite" was this which does not satisfy WP:RS. I'll try to find the original SI article, but until a source can be found for this nickname, it should be removed from the infobox per "WP:BLPSOURCES". Once a source is found, the nicknames should be added to the article per and properly sourced.
  • Catskill Thunder (amateur) was the latest nickname added. Also does not appear in the article and also is not properly cited. Should be removed immediately per "WP:BLPSOURCES". However, like with "Kid Dynamite", if a reliable source is found to support this nickname, it can re-added to the article itself with the source.

I am going to hide the nicknames which seem to be problematic. This seems to be acceptable according to WP:HIDDEN#Appropriate uses for hidden text. They have not been deleted; only hidden, until the inclusion can be properly discussed or they are properly cited. This is done entirely in good faith and not meant to disrupt the article, so please discuss. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 22:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: The following was originally posted at User talk:Marchjuly#Mike Tyson's nicknames. It has been copied and pasted it here because it is a discussion specifically related to this article.
Do you really think that "Iron Mike" is not a commonly used nickname for Mike Tyson?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the message SaskatchewanSenator. Actually, I do think it is, but what I think is not really relevant. I explained my reasons for hiding those nicknames at Talk:Mike Tyson#Nicknames (infobox). If you wish to further discuss this, then it's probably better to do so on the article's talk page. Face-smile.svg - Marchjuly (talk) 00:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Actually, your knowledge of the subject is useful. If you believe material is likely correct and verifiable, but should have a reference, a better way to deal with it is to add a the Template:Citation needed.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 17:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again for another reply SaskatchewanSenator. {{citation needed}} or similar templates are OK to add to articles or information which in not about a living person, but according to Template:citation needed#When not to use this template, that template is not to be used on BLP articles. Rather such information is to be removed immediately. WP:BLPSOURCES says basically the same thing so it is slightly more restrictive than WP:UNSOURCED. - Marchjuly (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
It says that the Citation needed template should not be used with contentious material in a BLP. It's appropriate to use the template in situations like this where the material is not contentious.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 00:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
That is true, but "contentious" on Wikipedia refers to anything that another editor might feel needs to be supported by a reliable source, doesn't it? It's my opinion that all of Tyson's nicknames should be supported by RSs. It's also my opinion that all the nicknames should be actually mentioned in the article body and cited there instead of in the inbox. I am not sure of the best way to do this, but please feel free to be bold if you know a good place to add that info. I've given my reasoning for my edit at Talk:Mike Tyson#Nicknames (infobox) and I really think that's where any further discussion on this should take place. Not trying to be a jerk about anything and I do appreciate your comments, but let's continue this at the article's talk page, OK? Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Why do you think "contentious" has a different meaning on Wikipedia? I have no issue with your goals, I just think that removing that material from the article is not the best way to achieve them. If you want to move this discussion, I don't mind.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it possible that there are people who aren't as familiar with Tyson as you, and, therefore, might not be aware of all his nicknames? Someone could challenge a nickname and remove it. Would it be acceptable for an editor to re-add that info without providing a reliable source per WP:PROVEIT? If you feel it's OK to do so, then re-add it with a "citation needed" template. I do make mistakes and I don't revert when I'm wrong. If no one else reverts, then that means such information is not contentious. However, if a cn template is all it takes to keep something in a BLP article, then it seems to me that other editors could do the same with other info that was removed, excluding obvious vandalism, using the same logic you are using here. My interpretation of how to use that template might indeed be wrong, so please re-add the nickname(s) if you feel it is. I only suggest you briefly explain why on that talk page post, so other editors know why. Thanks again. Face-smile.svg - Marchjuly (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Note: End of posts copied and pasted from User talk:Marchjuly#Mike Tyson's nicknames. - Marchjuly (talk) 20:49, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh my god this big debate and Mike's most well-known nickname Iron Mike is still not listed in the nicknames. In the time you spent on wikipedia rules pedantry and nickname removal you could have found 10,000 sources for this commonly accepted and widely known nickname. 129.174.236.67 (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the input 129.174.236.67. I have listed two possible sources already cited in the article which could possibly be used to cite Tyson's "Iron Mike" nickname. It's my opinion that all of Tyson's nicknames should be mentioned somewhere in the article, if possible, and cited there instead of just adding it to the infobox per WP:INFOBOXREF; however, this is just my opinion and I am exactly sure where the mention for "Iron Mike" would best fit in. If you know how to make it work, then please be bold add the information to the article and cite it with a reliable source. If you're not sure if the source you want to use is reliable or on how to word add the mention, then you can post it here first to give others a chance to comment if you want.
On the other hand, if you simply feel my edit was a mistake, then you can undo it. I only suggest that you leave an edit sum and if possible a comment on this talk page explaining your reasons why and the policies/guidelines supporting your edit so that myself and others know why you made the change. Face-smile.svg - Marchjuly (talk) 21:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Update[edit]

I was able to find this source which I feel is reliable and which supports both the "Kid Dynamite" and "Iron Mike" nicknames. Since I have added information about Tyson's nicknames to the article's lead supported by this source, I have re-added both "iron Mike" and "Kid Dynamite" to the infobox. I still haven't found anything supporting "Catskill Thunder", so I did not re-add that to the infobox at this time. If anyone finds anything supporting that nickname, just add the information to the article and re-add the nickname to the infobox. Face-smile.svg - Marchjuly (talk) 02:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Is Beyond the Glory a reliable source?[edit]

I have put in a statement with the reference being an episode of Beyond the Glory. The episode is available online in several places, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh_0KUt-wGQ

The episode includes video interviews with people who were there. Hence I assumed that the source would be considered reliable. Is that correct, and if not, why?

I ask because my edits have been reverted on the grounds that the source/claim was "dubious". 109.150.113.37 (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Interviews are primary sources. We rely on secondary sources here. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
What the above editor states about secondary sources is correct. -- WV 21:23, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Your citation of policy does not seem to be correct. The policy that was cited says the following.

... a primary source ... is an artifact, a document, a recording, or other source of information that was created at the time under study.

And

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources.

My edits were consistent with that. 109.150.113.37 (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Possibly, but they weren't consistent with WP:BLPPRIMARY, which is quite clear on the matter.

Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources....Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source...

--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:26, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to BLPPRIMARY, which I had not seen. I do not understand, though, why the interviews are primary sources. The above-quoted definition seems to require that primary sources be "created at the time under study"—in other words, at or shortly after the time that Tyson was in high school. The interviews were conducted many years afterwards. Additionally, the interviewees were not participants in Tyson's expulsion; rather, they lived/worked with him at the time. 109.150.113.37 (talk) 23:44, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Beyond the Glory is probably a reliable source. It would be helpful to know more about the material that you are using to support the changes you want to make. Who says it? Can you provide the time in the video or a transcription of the relevant material?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
There are a few places, but watch especially the minute after 21:30.
Also note that the current reference (which claims that Tyson merely dropped out of high school) is to Jet magazine; that would seem to be less reliable than Beyond the Glory.
109.150.113.37 (talk) 22:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I saw the statement from the interview with Teddy Atlas in that minute of the video. There are reasons to be very cautious about using him as a sole source for material about Tyson. If there is other relevant material in Beyond the Glory, please identify it.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
That is the main part. The other parts just add a bit of support, and none mention about 100 complaints from high school girls.
I just had a quick look at Tyson's autobiography, Undisputed Truth (which definitely is a primary source), but did not find anything about why Tyson left high school. The book does discuss the falling-out with Teddy, over Teddy's sister-in-law: Tyson blames himself, and is very positive about Teddy.
I am not sure what the overall conclusion should be here. Presumably, Beyond the Glory would have given Tyson a chance to rebut what Teddy said. 109.150.113.37 (talk) 18:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I found two books that discuss why Tyson left high school: Bad Intentions: The Mike Tyson Story, by Peter Heller, and The Rise of Mike Tyson, Heavyweight, by William F. McNell. Heller (p.76-77) claims that Tyson was a major problem in high school, but does not give details; he says that Tyson would have been expelled, but agreed to drop out beforehand. McNell (p.100-101) says that Tyson was taunted by other students for poor scholastic performance, and that this was a major source of the problem; he says that the school wanted Tyson to leave, as did Cus D'Amato, and so Tyson did. Neither book mentions the claim by Teddy Atlas about complaints from girls.
Thinking about this further, Atlas' claim that there were over 100 complaints from girls seems implausible. The school would hopefully/surely not have allowed such harassment to go on that long.
109.150.182.46 (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)   [same editor as before]