Talk:Mikis Theodorakis

Serbs, Serbia and NATO bombing of Serbia 1999

Mikis was very active in campaign against NATO bombing of Serbia, so can this section be add as well as along this his great love to Serbian people and so on.

“Every person should, at this time, be praying and struggling for peace.”

This sentence is at the end of a statement in support of Palestine. But this prayer and struggle does not only concern Palestine. When Serbia was being bombed (1999) Theodorakis and his orchestra took part in the large demonstration in Syntagma (Constitution Square, Athens). He then went to Belgrade and gave a large concert in support of the Serbian people. He appealed to the International Court of Justice at the Hague and filed charges against the political and military leadership of NATO. source: http://www.loizidis.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147&Itemid=116&lang=en

109.121.39.201 (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Disputed

I should do some writing...

I apologise, because lately, my work and my reading about ADO and DAO] microsuck technologies has taken most of my time. I am gonna work on this article this weekend. What I'm going to do, is write in the reasons that Mikis gives for calling Israelites the root of all evil. Does that sound good? Project2501a 20:27, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Mikis attempted to rephrase his original sayind to "Israelites are AT the root of all evil", meaning that they are amidst a situation that's above their own will and too difficult to resolve. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is outside the scope of this article, so please concentrate on Mikis' biography solely. Mikis does not need anyone to jump at his defense; his life achievements are the best answer to his critics, if presented as facts. Etz Haim 23:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Niko, cool, then, i'm removing the disputed tag from the top of the article Project2501a 21:39, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nice, but regarding the considerations expressed above, this article needs major rewriting. I should return to it when I have the time. Etz Haim 09:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, this article is not an unbiased view of the man and his services to peace and human dignity, that he expressed in numerous occasions. My opinion is that the quoted political views are way out of context and presented in such a way as to present Mikis as an anti-semite and racist individual. It is my belief that this effort emanates from Mikis' stance against an arrogant and war-loving attitute that has taken Washington (and Tel-Aviv of course) in the years after the fall of the Soviet Union. Such a stance, though, shows who Mikis has been all along! --Ank99 07:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) el:User:ank

Re the Haaretz interview, skeptics should note that Ha'aretz is considered to be THE leftist daily newspaper of a generally middle-to-left oriented Israeli media. Ari Shavit in particular is a regular and systematic critic of the occupation and of Israeli government from a decidedly left wing and humanitarian standpoint. Thus, the suspicion that this is some media conspiracy to "frame" Theodorakis merely for criticizing Sharon's government, makes no sense. Far harsher critics of Israeli politics have been major contributors to Haaretz.

That an "arrogant and war-loving attitude has taken Tel-Aviv" is a profoundly ignorant statement. To begin with, all three political branches of the state reside in Jerusalem. More importantly, the people of Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem are no more 'war-loving' than the people of Athens or Zurich or wherever YOU are from. -- 22:36, 04 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Nobel Peace Prize

• In 2000, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Being nominated for the Peace Prize is an honor, but it is not official and not necessarily prestigious. Any national legislator or about a third of the university professors in the world can make a nomination, and there have been as many as 140 some years. Nominators are requested to keep their nominations secret, so it's only those wishing publicity who make announcements. Altogether, I see no reason to keep it. No offense to the subject, this is a general Nobel Peace Prize "nominees" issue. -Willmcw 07:06, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup and titles

I cleaned this up to Wiki standards, I think. Any interested party can check my work and revise as necessary. I added titles to the roman numeral headings. Feel free to rewrite as necessary. DanMS 23:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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Cleaned up the language here & there, added some links and made a few minor enhancements. Nothing, I believe, that has any bearing on the Disputed discussion here. I did, however, remove or attribute av few POV praises for Mr. T's artistic prowess. I agree he is a splendid composer/artist, but his worldwide acclaim is such that it needs no emphasis in this article. In short, I don't think anybody will be offended by the edit. (Asav)

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This article seems to be badly vandalized, with all kinds of spurious 'facts', eg, references to a science fiction television show JM516 (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

"Enas Omiros"

Isn't it "O Omiros"? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I belive that: O Omiros = Homer, so Enas Omiros to distinguish the play.

But what I meant was, isn't the name of the play "O Omiros"? I have two albums of the music, one sung by Theodorakis and one by Farandouri (both in storage at the moment, unfortunately), and I was sure that they both used the definite article — but checking the Web shows me that I was wrong. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It's "Enas Omiros", and it is the title of the Greek translation of the play by Brendan Behan: "The Hostage". First performance on 12.04,1962 in Athens.

Plays

Should something be said about Ippies (Aristophanes); what exactly is these? Is it based on a real play by Aristophanes, is it an alternative name for a real play, or what? I can't find any trace of this except in the context of Theodorakis. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:53, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

American Copley Music Prize?

I have been unable to find any information on this "American Copley Music Prize". Cn anyone help? --Janice Rowe

No Google hits for "Copley Music Prize" that don't mention Theodorakis... Could it be misspelt? I tried some obvious variations, but came up with nothing. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

This was probably an award from the William and Noma Copley Foundation, which later changed it's name to the Cassandra Foundation. Darius Milhaud was one of the foundation's officers/directors. gives more info. ColinJapan (talk) 11:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit tag

I removed the {{copyedit}} tag. I started following the article a few weeks ago, proofread it twice, and (unlike most Wikipedia articles!) found no grammar, usage, or spelling errors. I'm not sure why it was tagged; perhaps it was cleaned up but the editor did not remove the tag. This article reads very well. Good job all!

If someone wants to tag the article with a different (content-based) cleanup tag based on the discussion above, I have no opinion on that and the subject is not an area within my expertise. --MCB 06:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't see this comment immediately, so replaced the tag with an explanation to your own Talk page. I have in mind such things as a paragraph starting "So do also his song cycles based on poems by famous Greek authors" (which is both an odd way to start a paragraph and grammatically odd). A lot of the language also needs to be toned down a bit (on the cusp of copyedit & cleanup). There's not much that remains to be done, but until it is, the tag serves to remind me and others. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

No problem... I was just on copyedit patrol and trying to get through a number of the articles on the list. Glad to leave it to the editors who are familiar with the article. (And yes, that "So do also his song cycles..." paragraph got by me.) Cheers, MCB 21:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

That's OK — and I think that I've done enough now to remove the template. Ther are still one or two slightly unhappy bits, but nothing really bad. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Most important composer

The article heading says that Theodorakis is "the most important Greek music composer of the 20th century, and one of the most significant in the world". Although I'm not an expert and do recognize that value judgements are always subjective, I think that both these statements need to be supported by citations. Who's to say that Theodorakis is more important than Skalkottas and Kalomiris? I think that some kind of reference is also needed for the second statement, that he's among the most significant in the world.--Atavi 09:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking in terms of classical music, so I forgot to mention Manos Hadjidakis.--Atavi 09:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I intend to change the text to read "Theodorakis is one of the most important Greek music composers of the 20th century." If anyone has any objections, please use the talk page.--Atavi 18:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I just realised that 194.219.192.246, who is apparently a Iannis Xenakis fan, has already changed the text.--Atavi 19:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Theodorakis is not only a composer but a politician and a good one, too. He also fought for his country against German army in 1940. He is a hero, too. Above all he is a Ellinas ideal.

Neutrality disputed

Apart from the serious issue with the lack of citations, this article, as it stands right now, does not look like WP:NPOV to me. The article says that he is "speaking out against any aggressor and oppressor". This is not an NPOV statement. If he used these words himself, then the article should say that he is "speaking out against what he termed aggressors and oppressors", or "what he considers aggressors and oppressors". I understand that some people do see these characterisations as the truth or as a characterisation that brings what some people would view as "justice", but in Wikipedia we do not care about the truth, we do not care about justice, here we only care about collecting facts from references in realiable sources, and sources must be identified. Saying "oppressive" is POV, a subjective statement. Saying "what this person considers oppressive" is the true, scientific fact free from any political agenda and we should stick to the facts. We are not here to write essays. We are here to collect verifiable facts from sources, identifying them in citations and in the text. Of course there are many other problematic statements in the article as well, but I hope that the example I given you is enough to help you understand what we do and don't do here in Wikipedia. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Another example of a POV statement: "prolific writing". Where is the reference? If something is on Wikipedia it must be verifiable in a reference. Has he said that his writing is prolific? If so, cite it and say "what he termed prolific writing". Has another person said that his writing is prolific? If so, cite it and say "what is considered prolific writing according to X". NerdyNSK (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

And note one more that we do not care whether the statement is factually correct, we only care about whether it appears in some source and whether we cite the source and state our facts in the correct way (ie saying who said what, when, and in which book or other source). NerdyNSK (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

BLP violations

Removed this [1], unacceptable BLP violation. If the problem persists, I will request the page be semied. Athenean (talk) 16:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

BLP vio

This [2] is a clear cut BLP violation by User:Soosim. The claims made are extremely serious, but the source used is highly partisan (for example it makes the familiar equation that any criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitism, and we all know what the "Foundation for the Defense of Democracies is a typical neo-con think tank). As WP:BLP makes clear from the very start, "Be very firm about the use of high quality source", and I intend to be. There is no way this source meets the requirement. Any more reverts using this source and I am going straight to WP:BLPN. Athenean (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

there are no claims being made - it is what he said. it has nothing to do with anti-israel = anti-semitism. it is simply a quote of what he said. anyway, i re-added it with a different reference. there are dozens out there. so, it is clear that it is notable and noteworthy. thanks. Soosim (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you seen the interview? No. Stop using partisan sources. The jpost is just as partisan as your previous source. BLP violations are serious business. Athenean (talk) 17:23, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

jerusalem post is a reliable source. please stop removing it. ask others. thanks. Soosim (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Jerusalem Post is ultra-partisan. Going straight to BLPN with this, hopefully it will stop the disruption. By the way, removing other people's talkpage postings is extremely rude. Don't do it again. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Mikis Theodorakis was minister in the Goverment which recognized the State of Israel

I added that Mikis Theodorakis was minister of the Goverment which recognized the State of Israel (21 May 1990), against the protest of many political actors and political parties in Greece that period. Stavreas (talk) 15:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Mikis as a fighter during occupation protected Jews families. Stavreas (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

"anti-semitic" comments

There is a problem with the allegation that Theodorakis' recent comments during an interview were "reported as anti-semitic" [3]. Anti-semitic according to whom? The Jpost points to the Simon Wiesenthal Center. If so, then that must be mentioned. Also, it seems odd to say that Theodorakis made the comments on Greek TV and then say "according to the Jerusalem Post...". This makes it seem like the Jerusalem post is a Greek tv channel.

I don't understand your last point at all. I'm all for proper attribution, but without the JPost attribution it makes it sound like we are quoting Mikis which we are not, we are quoting JPost. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, but my first point still stands. Athenean (talk) 01:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Here something new from the homepage of the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece:

The declaration of Theodorakis: http://www.kis.gr/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421:mikis-theodorakis-letter-to-the-central-board-of-jewish-communities-in-greece&catid=12:2009&Itemid=41

And the answer of Jewish Board: http://www.kis.gr/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=422:the-response-of-the-central-board-of-jewish-communities-in-greece&catid=12:2009&Itemid=41

Accusations of anti-semitism section

Following the recent ruckus regarding this section, I have a looked into this a bit more in depth. First, it is quite clear the first and second sentences refer to the same interview (According to the Los Angeles Times, "in the course of a (2011) television interview"...and In early 2011, Theodorakis made comments on Greek television...). By the way the full quote of Theodorakis, as given in an opinion piece in Ta Nea, one of Greece's leading dailies is "Ναι, είμαι αντισημίτης και αντισιωνιστής. Αγαπώ τον εβραϊκό λαό και έχω ζήσει μαζί του, αλλά οι Αμερικανοεβραίοι κρύβονται πίσω από τα πάντα, τις επιθέσεις στο Ιράκ, τις οικονομικές επιθέσεις στην Ευρώπη, στην Αμερική, στην Ασία, οι Εβραιοαμερικάνοι βρίσκονται πίσω από τον Μπους, τον Κλίντον και πίσω από τις τράπεζες»". Translation: "Yes I am anti-semitic and anti-zionist. I love the Jewish people and have lived among them, but the American Jews are behind everything these days, the attacks on Iraq, the economic attacks on Europe, in America, in Asia, the Jewish Americans are behind Bush, Clinton, and behind the banks.". In my opinion, the first two sentences should be combined, and the quote given in full. Athenean (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The whole piece and the header title needs a rewrite - his comments here don't seem to be in the way of apology imo but more a repeat of his statement and a clarification of his comments. Off2riorob (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

yes, rob, for sure. and athenean - let's try the full quote: "Yes I am anti-semitic and anti-zionist. I love the Jewish people and have lived among them, but the American Jews are behind everything these days, the attacks on Iraq, the economic attacks on Europe, in America, in Asia, the Jewish Americans are behind Bush, Clinton, and behind the banks." thanks, Soosim (talk) 17:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Changed my mind. He obviously doesn't know what he's saying anymore. You should have taken up my offer while it was still valid. Forget it now. Athenean (talk) 17:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm wondering if you read this: "With the whole section to view instead of just one part taken out of context as was posted on the Internet, you would have to be a complete imbecile not to realise that the term anti-Semite was, without doubt, a slip of the tongue made at the end of a gruelling, two-hour-long interview. How could a professed anti-Semite go on in his very next sentence to say that he loves Jewish people and hates anti-Semitism? Be that as it may, my enemies saw the chance they had been waiting for and pounced." Wonder who he's talking about. Athenean (talk) 17:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Zionists? - It says in the lede "He continues to speak out in favor of left-liberal causes, Greek-Turkish-Cypriot relations, and against the War in Iraq.[2][3] He has consistently opposed oppressive regimes and was the key voice against the Greek Junta 1967-1974, which imprisoned him.[4]" - so the people he considers his enemies could be a whole bunch of people/governments. He just seems like a man of peace to me, and he doesn't like what he sees as some of the bad stuff in the world which he sees as propagated by USA and Jews and he has repeated it and clarified it, I am not seeing an apology for that. He corrected himself that he is not an anti Semite (a slip of the tongue after a two hour interview) which was accepted. Off2riorob (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

He is very much a man of peace, in stark contrast to many of his detractors. The whole thing is being given way too much undue weight, and in my opinion should be removed altogether. Athenean (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

i have no doubt he is a man of peace. very nice. however, we have several reliable sources saying what he said. if afterwards he apologized (slip of the tongue), fine - but both the statement and the apology are noteworthy. i will be editing this in the near future to include all of it. your comments are welcome, of course. (i see that i asked something earlier and no one even bothered to respond. very nice. thanks.) Soosim (talk) 18:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a declaration of intent to edit-war. I would advise you not to do it for obvious reasons. The consensus is against you at this time. Unless this consensus changes I will report you for edit-warring if you add this against consensus. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:48, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Second that. Athenean (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

header

The header needs changing from Accusations of Anti-Semitism and Theodorakis' apology to a less attacking one there also wasn't really an apology, perhaps - Opinions on Jews and Zionism ? or 2011 comments on Jews and Zionism - ?

I agree with your well-made points. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 18:57, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

See my point above. This is just a single slip of the tongue in a single interview, and is being given far too much weight. Athenean (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

If this piece of news was not covered widely you have a good point. In the context of his contributions it may indeed be given undue weight. Let's not forget Theodorakis has composed anti-Nazi music supporting the victims of the holocaust in his musical work Mauthausen. Even Simon Wiesenthal has commented on why Mauthausen should not be forgotten. Mikis Theodorakis composed his Mauthausen music to make sure noone forgets Mauthausen like Simon Wiesenthal wanted. Maybe we can mention this work more extensively in the article. This has not been mentioned so far in any detail. Or about the Mauthausen trilogy, quote: In less than two months, the Hebrew and English version of the Mauthausen Cantata were created - thanks to the help of Elinoar Moav Veniadis, Julie Dennis and Nadia Weinberg. Quote from the Mauthausen cantata: Christians, I am no murderer. No wild animal to eat you I have escaped from prison To go back to my home. Ah! What solitude of death In this country of Bertolt Brecht! Yannos [Ber] is handed over to the SS They take him now for execution. If there is a more pro-semitic work than this please do let me know. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:41, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I also support the comment of Athenean that "This is just a single slip of the tongue in a single interview, and is being given far too much weight." - really,... if is is to be mentioned, it doesn't really warrant its own section. Titillating stuff like this, to actually give it its correct context you would need a couple of paragraphs, which would also make it undue, so its undue now because its not correctly explained and to correctly explain it would also make it undue - my personal position would be to remove just remove it. Off2riorob (talk) 20:20, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Rob. I agree with you. I also added some more info in my comments above to provide some more context to Theodorakis' pro-semitic work. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I removed it - this discussion and the clear support of three editors. Off2riorob (talk) 21:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much again Rob. Take care. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:08, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

uh, wow - you guys work fast. make your own consensus without waiting. nice. good job. anyway, the LA Times, the Jerusalem Post and others is considered significant. this is not the boise bee..... so, please revert using the LA Times quote as the most significant. thank you. Soosim (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)