Talk:Milestone

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Untitled[edit]

If you want you can take images from the Spanish version (Hito kilométrico) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.102 (talk) 17:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Unit of Measure[edit]

204.146.190.1 says: "A mile-stone is also a unit of measure used to denote work energy. It is equivalent to 68,640 foot-pounds or 22242.67304688 calories (22.24267304688 kcal or food calories)." Is there any evidence for this term being used? If so, I'd suggest putting this on Milestone (disambiguation), not in this article. --Northernhenge (talk) 19:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Our first 'external reference' is "The Milestone Society" and they give the origins of this unit of measure: "The Romans laid good metalled roads to move soldiers and supplies quickly across their Empire: they measured distance to aid timing and efficiency, marking every thousandth double-step with a large cylindrical stone. 117 still survive in the UK." Today, the TV show Jeopardy used that in one of their questions, and I think the double step of Romans should have a prominent place at the top of our article. I don't see it anywhere. Should I look again? Just asking, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Miles?[edit]

It's not clear whether this article is only about milestones / mile markers or about distance markers in general. I think it started off as the former but some references to kilometres have crept in and muddied the waters somewhat. If it's going to cover distance markers for all units, it should probably be renamed. Either way, a clean up is needed.–Signalhead < T > 18:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The meaning of Milestone[edit]

The removal of a chunk of text that dealt with British marker posts yesterday was uncalled for. To the best of my knowledge, every new marker post on British roads in the last 30 years has been kilometre based (most rail markers are however still mile based). Until such time that the direction of this article has been established, I request that this text remain - after all it is consistent with the rest of the article. If it is decided that this article should be spilt into different components, then whoever does that spilt should ensure that each piece of text is apportioned to one or other component. Martinvl (talk) 19:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed the "..chunk of text " (which was quickly put back) because it does not refer to Milestones. The title of this article is Milestone and not road distance marker. Until recently the whole of the text had indeed related to milestone, markers on roads at mile intervals. often with additional information about distances to other places along the road. Except for some gallery images from Spain and India (which ought not to be there according to WP policy), the article has stuck to its title....until now. I suggest that there may be a need for a separate article called Road distance markers into which the contentious "chunk of text" could be located. If not, the article is wide open to include any sort of distance markers in any units including running tracks, swimming pools etc. I shall once again delete the relevant text.  Velela  Velela Talk   19:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. Many milestones / mileposts in the US aren't actually placed at mile intervals either, but rather those of a half-mile or tenth of a mile or whatever, yet they're still called "milestones." Miles are their origin, sure, but the distance they count off doesn't have to be in miles. Thus we have, in the wonder of the English language, mileposts that don't measure miles.
More generally, milestones / "road measurement markers" are the same topic in an encyclopedic sense, so I'd be strongly opposed to an arbitrary split based on the measurement systems of the respective countries. Arguably this article should be moved to Road Distance Marker and encompass everything... but I'd only want to do that if there's evidence that the term "milepost / milestone" and "kilometrepost" are on the decline. My understanding is that they're still used even in metric English-speaking countries like the UK, so the current article title is fine. SnowFire (talk) 21:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I would be content with including those markers referred to as Milestones even where they don't necessarily exist at mile intervals. After all Roman milestones and modern milestones are at quite different separations. My concern is with including a whole gamut of markers that are neither called milestone nor have the commonly accepted attributes of milestones. The text that I deleted referred to diver location markers which occur alongside motorways and similar roads every 100 metres or 100 yards or so and just have reference numbers on , principally so that emergency services can locate a stranded motorist. In the UK these are not called milestones, nor are they marked on maps as such, nor do the population of Britain call them that.  Velela  Velela Talk   22:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Would people be happier if reasonably sized sections were hived off into separate articles such as California_postmile and Reference marker (New York). In such cases, the milestone article should emphasise milestones of historic importance and cross-reference modern-day article (including non-English articles if appropriate). If this is not the case, then I expect to see the deleted material reinstated. Martinvl (talk) 21:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
In principle I would agree although the articles suggested sound rather too narrow and prescriptive. I would have suggested Highway distance markers which would include a see also pointing to Milestones.  Velela  Velela Talk   13:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

DeFacto's changes[edit]

I have reverted DeFacto's changes - his removal of the section on modern UK signs was unjustified - it appears that he did this because the markers concerend were in kilometres. Why then did he leave the sections on Australia and India in place? They are also in kilometres. In addition, so are the Zimbabwan ones - I am amending the text having found a reference. Martinvl (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

You reverted two different edits of mine. What is the reason for reverting the second one?
The reason I removed the UK section is as described in the edit summary, they are not 'milestones' (miles or km, I'm not concerned with the units of measure). Unlike the numbers on 'milestones', the numbers on the UK driver location signs are not meant to inform the travelling public of anything. There is no clue on the signs as to the units and there is no clue as to where the datum for the numbers might be. They are merely reference numbers for use my the road maintenance and emergency response authorities. The UK does have 'modern' signs though which do supply distance information for travellers - why not write about these 'milestone'-analagous signs rather than restoring this unrelated stuff? -- de Facto (talk). 14:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Because the big signs aren't mileposts. The markers that are unreadable by the general public are. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Please elucidate - given that the units on either type of sign are not explicit (they could be apples, miles or anything else) and given that the location of the datum or origin is generally unknown to the general public, and given that the UK road network also has regular signs designed precisely to convey distance information to the travelling public. -- de Facto (talk). 16:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
There's nothing to clarify, one sign is called a milepost, and the other is not. I'm guessing the signs you are referring to are the ones on Motorways that show a few upcoming locations and the distance to them? Those are called route confirmatory signs. On all-purpose roads, I believe they are called informatory signs.Page 11 A milepost is an engineering landmark. In some jurisdictions, they merely show a mile or km value (and no, the ones that show kilometres aren't called kilometreposts). In others, they include additional information, such as numbering sections of a road, GIS references, etc. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Are we saying then that we think the distance marker posts (with unspecified units and unspecified origin) are analagous to milestones? That's not what the article says, and why have all the discussion on driver location signs? And what about the overtone laden language describing the use of km rather than miles, even though the marker posts have never used miles - do we really need that? -- de Facto (talk). 16:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't know what a distance marker post is. I don't edit this article and I haven't read it in a long time. I've merely read the above. I don't think in this case, I know, and I can provide proof. In engineering, a milepost is a landmark. They are used for surveying, maintenance, cost distribution, and sending the mindless truck-driver labourers out to do a task (yay for unions). The post-mounted signs that inform the general public are not mileposts and are there solely for drivers. The distances on informatory signs are approximates, while with mileposts they are measured and exact. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough. "Distance marker posts" are what the little white plastic posts, placed every 100 metres, are called in the UK. These do sound to be analogous to your definition of 'mileposts'. Do you have an RS to support that definition? We can work together on a new wording, and attempt to produce something a bit more accurate and more NPOV than the current effort. -- de Facto (talk). 17:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
File:A38DriverLocationSign km415.jpg
These are both mileposts
Yes those would be mileposts as well. It seems there are three different signs for this in the UK, and that "driver location sign" is synonymous with milepost, as all the signs serve that purpose. I don't have (personally) any sources that would be relevant to the UK aside from the standards and drivers handbook posted online. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
The small one in the photo is the "distance marker post" that I mention above. That makes two, if you count the big sign as one too. If your assertion about these both being 'milestones' (despite undeclared units and undeclared datum) is correct (we just need an RS to confirm that Face-wink.svg ), it looks as though I might have to eat some humble pie here then. I still think that the phrasing about the use of kilometres, not miles needs removing or NPOVing, and a better explanation about their lack of units or published datum is required. -- de Facto (talk). 18:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I think part of the problem is that we have four or more articles covering these similar concepts (California postmile, Reference marker (New York), Driver locations signs and milestone). I think it would make sense to merge them and then split into one topic (Milestone) covering historical markers made in stone, and the other (Milepost, distance reference sign, or something else that isn't regionally specific) covering modern signs. A lot of the phrasing is based around an example in a specific country, but would best be opened to universal interpretation. They all measure distance in the standard units of the country from some set reference point or the beginning of the highway. It can be stated that the distances may be in miles or kilometres, depending on the standard of that jurisdiction/country. I'll see if I can find a source for the UK terminology... may have to go dig out the ol' British Standards (oi). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── There is already an article Highway route markers. British Ordnance Survey maps refer to "Mileposts", denoted by the symbol MP, but I have never seens a post that is calibrated in kilometres on an OS map. Traffic Wales refers to "Marker posts" on their website - these are calibrated in metric units. Martinvl (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is the unit of measurement is irrelevant. Its dependent on location. Some have kilometric distances, some have mileages. Just like gas/petro is sold in litres in some places and gallons in others. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
The weird thing about these posts/signs in the UK is that the units are not divulged to the public at large. Road direction signs and "route confirmatory signs" give distances in miles, but all that the official driver traffic sign manual (Know Your Traffic Signs) says about the driver location signs is that they give a "distance reference". We know it's kilometres if we know that the highway authority's distance marker posts, the numbers from which are reflected on the signs, have always been kilometres. -- de Facto (talk). 19:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)