Talk:Mongol invasion of Java
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
One source inadequately cited does not a verifiable article - many odd items of Indonesian history prior to about 800 ce are prevalent and are not in wikipedia (Goggle is another matter) simply because there are insufficient items to provide adequate defences for the WP:N, WP:RS, and WP:V issues.
Removal of tags and not actually changing text will see reverts again - either go beyond one source (an issue ), find more material to show that there is a sense of anything beyond summarising one point of view - thank you SatuSuro 01:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Meng Qi (孟琪) was a Han Chinese messenger of the Yuan Dynasty. You can say either he was a Han Chinese messenger or he was a Yuan messenger, but not he was a Mongol messenger!--220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Then provide a reliable reference or it needs to go.--Merbabu (talk) 04:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- According to Mingshi,(History of Ming) "爪哇在占城西南。元世祖時，遣使臣孟琪往，黥其面。世祖大舉兵伐之，破其國而還。"。So 孟琪 (Meng Qi) was the messenger sent by Kublai to Java and got tatooed. Also, according to Baidu encyclopaedia, he was originally a Chinese general of Southern Song.--18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Please note this is English Wikipedia - bringing in non english sources does not constitute the issues that exist with this article in terms of WP:RS, WP:V or WP:N - SatuSuro 04:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia:V, "Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." There is no problem for me to quote and translate the relevant portion, but it clearly states non-English sources are allowed.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 04:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe - but the absence of proof (no isbns quoted - no publishers or locations provided) that either of the english book titles quoted as sources actually exist - suggest there is no adequate english source for the whole exercise of this article - which is on very shaky grounds as far as there do not seem to be any indonesian based sources actually provide any information about the events that are claimed to have happened SatuSuro 04:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
2 Ips and a named ed have been adding - there are no sign of in article sources or any obvious usage of references - this is English Wikipedia where we take WP:RS and WP:V seriously: - please make an effort to use citations or Reliable Sources and citations or your edits will be reverted - thank you SatuSuro 01:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, given my coming in and offering my two cents out of nowhere, I agree with SatuSuro that references need to be cited better.
- The two English language references given are not cited properly - this can be rectified easily if someone would only take the bother to change what's written into a widely accepted citation format, e.g. "Bade, David W. Khubilai Khan and the Beautiful Princess of Tumapel: the Mongols Between History and Literature in Java. Ulaanbaatar: A. Chuluunbat, 2002a" just as seen .
- The Chinese source alluded to above should also be cited properly. While it would be preferable for the English Wikipedia to rely primarily on English-language sources, this is far from a requirement, and valid, reliable sources in any language ought to be recognized and accepted, provided they are cited properly.
- More in-line citations are needed to help prove precisely which points are defended by which sources.
- A fascinating topic. I am happy to have discovered it, having never known before that such an event occurred. You learn something new every day. PS A military conflict infobox would be great. LordAmeth (talk) 02:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, given my coming in and offering my two cents out of nowhere, I agree with SatuSuro that references need to be cited better.
Still questions hang over the sources used. The editor who added them has not addressed the concerns. I have learned that Robert Cribb, an authoritative source on Indonesian history, has a section on the invasion. Since no verification has been provided of the supplied sources here, my suggestion is thus that the article be completely re-written based on the Cribb info only - or any other proven reliable source. --Merbabu (talk) 09:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The Category:Wars involving Indonesia should be remove, because Indonesia didn't exist at this time, even in the category also said from 1945-present. Kinh Duong Vuong (talk) 02:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, everyone knows it didn't "exist" - but we are merely following stylistic conventions used by historians. Since you're making such a comment, I trust you've read a book on Indonesian history? --Merbabu (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Bibliography on the Mongols in Java
Since self-citation is frowned upon, I will say nothing of my own publications on this topic. The writers and editors who are interested in improving this article can find my book readily on FirstSearch.
On the issue of Meng Qi (who is not mentioned in any of the pre-20th century sources from the Malay archipelago), no information on his ethnicity is known to exist. The Chinese sources state simply that he was an envoy sent by the emperor (i.e Khubilai, the ruler of the Mongol empire who was also the emperor of China) and that is all that is relevant.
Primary sources on the campaign are available for those interested; I leave it to the writers/editors to judge how to evaluate and utilize the following bibliographic information excerpted from my book:
Primary sources from Java/Bali Editions of the Desawarnana (Nagarakretagama) by Mpu Prapanca Brandes, J.L.A. (1902) Nagarakretagama. Batavia (Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen, deel 54:1) Kern, H. (1922) Het oud-Javaansche lofdicht Nagarakertagama / van Prapantja (1365 A.D.); de vertaling en bespreking van H. Kern met aanteekeningen van N.J. Krom ; populair bewerkt ten behoeve van de Commissie voor de Volkslectuur. Weltevreden: Drukkerij Volkslectuur, 1922. Dutch translation. Pigeaud, Theodore G.Th. (1960) Java in the 14th century: a study in cultural history : the Nagara-Kertagama by Rakawi Prapañca of Majapahit, 1365 A.D. 3rd ed. The Hague 5 vols. Texts, translation, commentaries Robson, Stuart. (1995) Desawarnana: (Nagarakrtagama) / by Mpu Prapañca; translated by Stuart Robson. Leiden (Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde, v. 169)
Text of the Kidung Harsawijaya Berg, C.C. (1931) Kidung Harsa-Wijaya. Tekst, inhoudsopgave en aanteekeningen door C.C. Berg. ‘s-Gravenhage: Martinus Nijhoff. Summary in Dutch
Text of the Kidung Panji Wijayakrama (Kidung Rangga Lawe) Berg, C.C. (1930) Rangga Lawe: middeljavaansche historische roman: critisch uitgegeven.. Batavia: Kon. Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen (Bibliotheca Javanica, 1) Summary in Dutch. An English version by Raffles': a brief but very different text based on the Kidung Panji Wijayakrama, in English, is printed in his History of Java, 1st ed. 1817, p. 103-108 and 2nd ed. 1830 v. 2 p. 110-116
Kidung Sunda Berg, C.C. (1927) Kidung Sunda. Inleiding, tekst, vertaling en aanteekeningen door C.C. Berg. 's-Gravenhage. (Bijdragen tot de taal-, land- en volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië, deel 83) Javanese text in transcription with translation into Dutch.
Editions and translations of the Pararaton Brandes, J. (1897) Pararaton (Ken Arok) of Het boek der koningen van Tumapel en van Majapahit. Batavia (Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen, deel 49) 314 p. Javanese text and Dutch translation. Brandes, J. (1920) Pararaton (Ken Arok) of Het boek der koningen van Tumapel en van Majapahit. 2. druk bewerkt door N.J. Krom. Batavia (Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen, deel 62) 314 p. Javanese text and Dutch translation. Padmapuspita, Ki J. (1966) Paraton: teks bahasa Kawi, terdjemahan bahasa Indonesia. Jogjakarta. Javanese and Indonesian. Phalgunadi, I Gusti Putu. (1996) The Pararaton: a study of the southeast Asian chronicle / translated from the original Kawi text. New Delhi. Javanese text, English translation, historical introduction
Primary Chinese sources: Ma Huan. Mills, J.V.G. (1997) Ying-yai sheng-lan = 'The overall survey of the ocean's shores' . Translated from the Chinese text edited by Feng Ch'eng-Chün with introduction, notes and appendices by J.V.G. Mills. Bangkok [other editions available] The relevant passage was also translated by Groeneveldt and appears on page 47 in his article of 1880, for which see below under Yuan shi. Ming shi. English translation of the brief note about the campaign may be found in Groeneveldt's Notes on the Malay Archipelago and Malacca compiled from Chinese sources.Batavia, 1880, p. 34 Tong jian gang mu: Mailla, Joseph-Anne-Marie de Moyriac de. (1777-1785) Histoire generale de la Chine, ou Annales de cet empire, traduits du Tong-kien-kang-mou... Paris. Volume 9 contains the account of the Javanese expedition. Wang Dayuan. (1983) Daoyi zhi lue. Taipei. [Other editions available] Yuan shi. Numerous editions. The Chinese texts of the relevant portions are reprinted in Niwa Tomosaburo (1953). English translations found in the following two publications: Groeneveldt, W.P. (1876) “The expedition of the Mongols against Java in 1293, A.D.” The China review, or, Notes and queries on the Far East v. 4, p. 246-254 Groeneveldt, W.P. (1880) Notes on the Malay Archipelago and Malacca compiled from Chinese sources. Batavia (Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen, deel 39:1) x, 144 p. Includes same material as the previous, with much more on other matters. Later reprinted under the title Historical notes on Indonesia and Malaysia.
Persian sources: Spuler, Bertold. (1988) History of the Mongols based on eastern and western accounts of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Translated from the German by Helga and Stuart Drummond. New York. See the paragraphs from Wassaf.
Secondary literature on the Mongols in Java Amiot, Joseph Marie. (1776-1791) "Introduction a la connaissance des peuples qui ont ete ou qui sont actuellement tributaires de la Chine: Du royaume de Koua-oua" Memoires concernant l'histoire, les sciences, les arts, les mœurs, les usages, &c. des Chinois par les missionaires de Pekin. Paris. v. 14 (1789) p. 101-111. Reprinted in: Schlegel, Gustaaf. "Iets omtrent de betrekkingen der Chinezen met Java, voor de komst der Europeanen aldaar." Tijdschrift voor Indische taal-, land- en volkenkunde, deel 20, 1873, p.I-XI following p. 31. Berg, C.C. (1950) Kertanagara, de miskende empirebuilder Orientatie July 1950 p. 1-32 Berg, C.C. (1951a) De geschiedenis van pril Majapahit. I: Het mysterie van de vier dochters van Krtanagara. Indonesie v.4 nr.6 mei, p.481-520 Berg, C.C. (1951b) De geschiedenis van pril Majapahit. II: Achtergrond en oplossing der pril-Majapahitse conflicten. Indonesie v.5 nr.3 nov., p.193-233 Berg, C.C. (1952) De Sadeng-oorlog en de mythe van Groot-Majapahit. Indonesie v.5, nr.5 Maart, p.385-422 Berg, C.C. (1965) The Javanese picture of the past. in Soedjatmoko et al. editors. An introduction to Indonesian historiography. Ithaca p. 87-117 The Cambridge history of China. Vol. 6: Alien regimes and border states, 907-1368. (1994) Edited by Herbert Franke and Denis Twitchett. Cambridge. See the section by Rossabi. Campi, A. (2005) Review of Khubilai Khan and the Beautiful princess of Tumapel. Bi-monthly Journal on Mongolian and Tibetan Current Situation v.13 nr.3 http://www.mtac.gov.tw/mtacbook/upload/09305/0301/4.pdf Coedes, G. (1944; 1968) Histoire ancienne des etats hindouises d'extreme-orient. Hanoi. An English translation of the 3rd edition was published in Honolulu: The indianized states of Southeast Asia. Damais, L.C. (1957) L'expedition a Java des troupes de Qubilai Qagan et la date de fondation de Majapahit (summary). in Proceedings of the Twenty-second Congress of Orientalists, held in Istanbul, September 15th to 22nd, 1951. Leiden. p. 322-323. This chronology differs in many ways from the speculations of Berg (see above). Friederich, R. (1850) Voorloopig verslag van het eiland Bali. Batavia (Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen ; deel 22) Groeneveldt, W.P. (1876) The expedition of the Mongols against Java in 1293, A.D. The China review, or, Notes and queries on the Far East v. 4, p. 246-254. THis is largely a translation of the account found in the Yuan Shi. Kramp, F. G. (1903) "De zending van Meng K'i naar Java en de stichting van Madjapahit" in Album-Kern: opstellen geschreven ter eere van Dr. H. Kern hem aangeboden door vrienden en leerlingen op zijn zeventigsten verjaardag. Leiden. p. 357-361. The only article devoted solely to Meng Qi. Lombard, Denys. (1990) Le carrefour javanais: essai d'histoire globale. Tome II: Les reseaux asiatiques. Paris. Nakata Kozo. (1969) Gen no Jawa shinto [The military expedition of the Mongols against Java] Tohogaku no.37 March, p.101-125, English summary p.8-9 Niwa Tomosaburo. (1953) Chugoku Jaba koshoshi. Tokyo. Lombard incorrectly gives author's name as Niwatomo Saburo. Often cited under the book's colophon title: Gendai ni okeru Chugoku-Jawa kosho shi. Niwa Tomosaburo. (1954) Gen Sei So Jaba ensei zakko—toku ni gunshi narabi ni kaisen su ni tsuite [Notes on the numbers of the armed forces sent to Java by Khubilai Khan] Shigaku-kenkyu nr.53 p.57-63 Rossabi, Morris. (1988) Khubilai Khan: his life and times. Berkeley. Rossabi, Morris. (1994) The reign of Khubilai khan. in Cambridge history of China. Vol. 6: Alien regimes and border states, 907-1368. Cambridge. p. 414-489 Schlegel, Gustaaf. (1873) "Iets omtrent de betrekkingen der Chinezen met Java, voor de komst der Europeanen aldaar." Tijdschrift voor Indische taal-, land- en volkenkunde, deel 20, p.7-31 (includes Amiot's "Introduction a la connoissance des peuples qui ont ete ou qui sont actuellement tributaires de la Chine: Du royaume de Koua-oua" as an appendix) Slametmuljana. (1976) A story of Majapahit. Singapore. Tregonning, Kennedy. (1957) Kublai Khan and south-east Asia.” History today v.7 nr.3 March, p.163-170 Walckenaer, Charles Athanase, baron. (1842) Memoire sur la chronologie de l'histoire des Javanais, et sur l'epoque de la fondation de Madjapahit. Memoires de l'Institut royal de France, academie des inscriptions et belles-lettres, t. 15 p. 224-250 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbade (talk • contribs) 19:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for that
Wars involving vietnam?
Are the numbers realistic ?
According to http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/J/JAV/java-02.html: "In 1781 Radermacher estimated the population of Java at 2,029,915 souls ; in 1795 Nederburg gave it as at least three and a half millions, and Daendels in 1808-1811 as over 3,770,000. It was certainly not on the side of excess that these estimates erred. About 1815 the first real census of the population, carried out by Raffles, gave an aggre-gate of 4,615,270—Java 4,390,661, and Madura 224,609—of whom 4,499,250 were natives. According to Bleeker’s estimates (Tijdschr. voor Nederl. Indië, 1847), the total about 1845 was 9,542,045, of whom 9,373,989 were natives. The only year since 1849 in which, according to the official returns, there has been a decrease in the popu-lation is 1850, due to the famine and pestilence that prevailed in Demak and Grobogan. There appears to be about the same preponderance of male over female births in Java as in Europe."
I think we can safely assume that the population of Java during Mongol invasion was not more than 2,000,000. Then how come the Kingdom of Kediri (who had only the eastern part of Java) had more than 100,000 soldiers ? I think the number was too much exaggerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ridwan Nurhayat (talk • contribs) 06:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)